An honest question to cessationists

[CCW95A]

That is just it Curtis we all should be like this, especially where the telling others what we have learned and seen work. Now with that said I beleive it is just as important to tell others what did not work as well and let them know what God showed you to change in order for it to work but never focus on the things that did not work.

We should learn from one another and share blessings and anointings and walking from glory to glory one victory after another. Why is this such an out rage to many?
Blessings Curtis
Jim

Teaching / preaching the truth should be a pleasant thing, but it seems like "pulling teeth" which I really dislike! Now we know what Jesus meant that there will many trials and tribulations to those who live Godly, even when proclaiming the truth to the Church. Those whom we think would receive with gladness the truth seem to fight the most. Do we ever give up because of this? I always find myself right back in the "fray" doing what is right even though it could be discouraging at times.

 

[Mykuhl]

Teaching / preaching the truth should be a pleasant thing, but it seems like "pulling teeth" which I really dislike! Now we know what Jesus meant that there will many trials and tribulations to those who live Godly, even when proclaiming the truth to the Church. Those whom we think would receive with gladness the truth seem to fight the most. Do we ever give up because of this? I always find myself right back in the "fray" doing what is right even though it could be discouraging at times.

Stay encouraged because it's not that way with everyone! I for one have learned and received quite a bit from what you have written, and I am sure others have as well.

 

[Euphemia]

I have noticed that the Lord places certain believers together even on a computer forum like a triple braided cord that can not be easily be broken. We all seem to be online all at the same time, which seems like all the time. Proclaiming the truth with other like minded believers is a blessing, and gets me pretty excited. We might not agree 100% on all things, but on the most important things we do, and that what matters the most with family. Rubbing elbows with one another does leave a lasting impression that will last forever.

I have noticed the same thing, and while I have been completely stunned by so much falseness in forums and Christian news sites that I frequent, I am quieted and blessed by the constant undercurrent of strong, balanced believers on the internet. I am sure that God places them there for a very distinct and vital reason. Jesus is coming soon, and He wants everyone to buck up and get it right in these last few days we have! I am encouraged by the like-mindedness that is in this place, and I pray to God that He will send more to CFS.

Love ya, Curtis!

 

[Euphemia]

Teaching / preaching the truth should be a pleasant thing, but it seems like "pulling teeth" which I really dislike! Now we know what Jesus meant that there will many trials and tribulations to those who live Godly, even when proclaiming the truth to the Church. Those whom we think would receive with gladness the truth seem to fight the most. Do we ever give up because of this? I always find myself right back in the "fray" doing what is right even though it could be discouraging at times.

My Christian friends and even my cell leaders have said in the past for me to quit this forum stuff. They will not join one. But my calling over the past few years has been to the internet, where I have seen people come to Christ, and I have had the opportunities to mentor young women in the Lord, and God has used me in some miraculous ways over the internet, also. It seems that this is one of the ways the Lord is using me to speak out the truth of His word, and I will continue until He says to stop.

I won't say I have not become discouraged or haven't been hurt by people in this medium. I have wept tears for people and for the ways I have been treated, but God says, "Go back". So I do.

 

[CCW95A]

I agree! I honestly believe that the Lord led me to this forum, and I thankful that He did.

Brother Mykuhl, I can sense your heart from where I am, and thank God for you. We are living in exciting times like never before. The ability to preach the gospel from a computer, and with one push of a button send the gospel all over the world in a fraction of a second. The Apostle Paul could not have fathomed what we could do today. The ability to teach / preach the gospel to million is unheard of in all of history. We are all apart of the the end times in proclaiming the good news to this world. Someday we will find out those who were touched by what you have typed on your computer so that they could receive Jesus as their savior.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Teaching / preaching the truth should be a pleasant thing, but it seems like "pulling teeth" which I really dislike! Now we know what Jesus meant that there will many trials and tribulations to those who live Godly, even when proclaiming the truth to the Church. Those whom we think would receive with gladness the truth seem to fight the most. Do we ever give up because of this? I always find myself right back in the "fray" doing what is right even though it could be discouraging at times.

Exactly Curtis,
We all need a break even if it is just a day set apart to spend with the Lord. Jesus gave us this example well for how many times did He slip off to be alone ??

 

[Mykuhl]

Brother Mykuhl, I can sense your heart from where I am, and thank God for you. We are living in exciting times like never before. The ability to preach the gospel from a computer, and with one push of a button send the gospel all over the world in a fraction of a second. The Apostle Paul could not have fathomed what we could do today. The ability to teach / preach the gospel to million is unheard of in all of history. We are all apart of the the end times in proclaiming the good news to this world. Someday we will find out those who were touched by what you have typed on your computer so that they could receive Jesus as their savior.

Thank you brother, I appreciate the kind words [emoji2].

I agree with what you say about the internet as a means to preach and teach the gospel. It really is a wonderful tool if used properly!

 

[eric m williams]

Lol, I'm gone for a night and the progress made....

... The only two things that have come is Jesus Christ and the Bible. Since the grammatical Greek cannot be changed it then must be by elimination the only thing left which is the Bible.

Paul then is saying.......when the Bible is completed (Come) the temporary things such as tongues and prophecy will not be need and will end because we will then have the perfect thing...

This relies on man's understanding of what is perfect and that the "perfect thing" it refers to is something that man has in his own life and/or experience. It seems far more likely that Paul was referring to the kingdom of heaven, the marriage, the remade earth, or possibly the New Jerusalem.


The epistles are letters and letters are one part of a conversation. They may have been the dominant part, but they were still just a part. Those letters were to assemblies that were already established and taught by the apostles. Timothy had his gifts through the laying on of hands (2 Tim 1), even though the scriptures were well known at the time (2 Tim 3). Paul also seem to feel that the scriptures of the time were sufficent in themselves.
Paul stated that the 'seal' of his apostleship was the church (Cor 9).

One gift in particular is given as a sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22). It seems odd that such a gift would be useless or abandoned when there are still hordes of unbelievers.

Just some things to consider.

 

[Major]

Lol, I'm gone for a night and the progress made....


This relies on man's understanding of what is perfect and that the "perfect thing" it refers to is something that man has in his own life and/or experience. It seems far more likely that Paul was referring to the kingdom of heaven, the marriage, the remade earth, or possibly the New Jerusalem.


The epistles are letters and letters are one part of a conversation. They may have been the dominant part, but they were still just a part. Those letters were to assemblies that were already established and taught by the apostles. Timothy had his gifts through the laying on of hands (2 Tim 1), even though the scriptures were well known at the time (2 Tim 3). Paul also seem to feel that the scriptures of the time were sufficent in themselves.
Paul stated that the 'seal' of his apostleship was the church (Cor 9).

One gift in particular is given as a sign for unbelievers (1 Cor 14:22). It seems odd that such a gift would be useless or abandoned when there are still hordes of unbelievers.

Just some things to consider.

It seems that you have forgotten that the sign gifts especially tongues were used because there was no Bible in print. The words of the Apostles were authenticated by the sign gifts given to them so that as they traveled they could speak any language in order to spread the gospel.

Once the Bible...the PERFECT ONE was printed those things given to the apostles were no longer needed for that purpose.

It may seem odd to us but isn't that exactly what the Scriptures tell us happened???

Paul told us that..........."Tongues would cease". Was he wrong? Did he lie?

 

[Major]

From what I have learned of late........
Perfect love when directed with us is not perfect like perfection but PERFECTED LOVE or another words love that has been built up through His word.

I agree with that.

 

[Major]

Praying or singing in the spirit is tongues. This is our spiritual language and the only one that satan can not understand. This has not nor will it stop.
When one prays as they hear the spirit say are praying led by the spirit but still in a natural language.

Jim......Satan can do a lot of things as he is the prince of the power of the air. He dominates the lives of people on the earth because he know his time is limited.

I do not know of any Bible verses that teach praying and singing in tongues is something that Satan can not understand.
Since the sounds made by those who speak in tongues today are not able to be understood, it seems to me that would lead to confusion and then the question must be......who is the master of confusion on this earth.

Could that possibly be the reason why Paul told us in Corinthians that tongues would CEASE (End) when the "perfect one" came?

The Bible does NOT confuse and is always straight forward and truthful and actually removes all confusion.

If you or anyone else chooses to speak in tongues, it is nothing to me at all. All I say is that if you choose to do so it is YOUR choice and NOT a Bible directed action.

 

[eric m williams]

It seems that you have forgotten that the sign gifts especially tongues were used because there was no Bible in print.

What I am not doing is relying on what others have stated that the bible says and going into it myself.
I have already addressed that they had scripture on hand and that the apostle Paul obviously held it in high regard.
Where in scripture does it state what you are saying without adding to it (since Paul does not specificaly state what that perfect thing is)?

The words of the Apostles were authenticated by the sign gifts given to them so that as they traveled they could speak any language in order to spread the gospel.

...and your thoughts on Paul's stament that the seal of His apostleship was the assembly/church he was speaking to?

It may seem odd to us but isn't that exactly what the Scriptures tell us happened???

No it doesn't. The passage you have referred to states "the perfect thing. You have made an assumption that it is referring to itself. To date I have yet to see any biblical support for such a belief that can function without an assumption of what is not stated.

Paul told us that..........."Tongues would cease". Was he wrong? Did he lie?

That is stated plainly in scripture.
What is not stated plainly or by direct suggestion is your assumption that Paul was talking about the bible.

Once the Bible...the PERFECT ONE was printed those things given to the apostles were no longer needed for that purpose.

I suggest looking up the word perfect and then doing some research on the number of corrections the bible has had throughout its history (including the KJV).
I dare to say that the only things which can be perfect are God Himself and anything directly created by Him.

My experience telle ms that most will gloss over what I've said here and elsewhere when they get the idea that I am questioning the bible. The fact that I have only questioned assumptions about what it says or how the bible is presented will be ignored.

 

[Euphemia]

We are all called to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Along with that comes the manifestation of tongues, just as it always has in the New Testament believers. The perfect yet to come is Jesus. It is not the Bible.

 

[eric m williams]

We are all called to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Along with that comes the manifestation of tongues, just as it always has in the New Testament believers. The perfect yet to come is Jesus. It is not the Bible.

I have to disagree with this. Every scriptural evidence I have been shown of this has required adding to what it says.
Considering that scripture plainly states that tongues are specifically for non-believers (1 Cor 14:22), and the fact that Paul emphasized the idea that not all have the same gifts (1 Cor 12), the idea of it as a required or universal manifestation is definately questionable.
One example of a new believer that immediately comes to mind that makes no mention of speaking in other tongues is with the Philip and the eunuch.

I'll gladly consider scriptural evidence for your stance, but at the moment I just don't see it.

 

[Euphemia]

I have to disagree with this. Every scriptural evidence I have been shown of this has required adding to what it says.
Considering that scripture plainly states that tongues are specifically for non-believers (1 Cor 14:22), and the fact that Paul emphasized the idea that not all have the same gifts (1 Cor 12), the idea of it as a required or universal manifestation is definately questionable.
One example of a new believer that immediately comes to mind that makes no mention of speaking in other tongues is with the Philip and the eunuch.

I'll gladly consider scriptural evidence for your stance, but at the moment I just don't see it.

If you study every mention of a person receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, every one came forth speaking in tongues and rejoicing.

You are talking about a different gift of tongues that is sued for ministry in the Body of Christ. That is not something everyone has.

 

[Major]

We are all called to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Along with that comes the manifestation of tongues, just as it always has in the New Testament believers. The perfect yet to come is Jesus. It is not the Bible.

My dear sister.......the grammatical Greek language can not be changed to suit or wants. It is just not possible.

The "Perfect" is the mature/complete Bible....a THING. It just can not be SOMEONE!

IF you or the others want to do the sign gifts and so on, please do so but do not fall into the trap that it is a Bible directive because it simple is not.

 

[Major]

We are all called to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Along with that comes the manifestation of tongues, just as it always has in the New Testament believers. The perfect yet to come is Jesus. It is not the Bible.

Not the case my sister and I have to disagree with you.

 

[eric m williams]

If you study every mention of a person receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, every one came forth speaking in tongues and rejoicing.

You are talking about a different gift of tongues that is sued for ministry in the Body of Christ. That is not something everyone has.

I think its safe to say that I am apparently unfamiliar with the passages that support the doctrine you are espousing.

I do know of the pentacost event where this occurred.
I know of where John the baptist referred to baptism of the Holy Spirit, but most mentions of baptism do not include speaking in tongues.
This is touching on banned topics, so I recommend taking this to a conversation, but I would like to know what passages you fall on to support your doctrine. Care to help me out?

 

[Siloam]

It is widely accepted that in physics, if you design an experiment to test whether light behaves like a wave of something, wave-like behavior is observed. But if you design an experiment to test whether light is composed of particles (photons), behavior specific to particles will be observed. If you design an experiment to confirm one model while disproving the other, either ambiguous results are produced or assumptions used in the setup are shown to be problematic.

As I stated prior, I do not belong in a Pentecostal church. I follow the leading of the Spirit as He makes His will known to me. That does not require that I denounce the teachings of those churches. I do believe that these issues are unnecessarily divisive.

My confidence in the Christ and the Bible is not threatened by those that come to Him from differing views. My rightness (if I may use that term) is not dependent on the wrongness of other views.

A Christian needs to have an understanding of the Holiness of the personal God, and our inability to live up to His requirements.
A Christian needs to understand that the Holy God became flesh and personally bore the penalty for our sin.
A Christian is one who has personally accepted Christ's payment for his personal sin.

There are a lot of things that are good to also do and to know. It is good to commit to following God's leading and to strive to live a life pleasing to Him. It is good to know the theology behind the simple truths above. It is good to fellowship with other Christians and learn from them and help them learn. It is good to spend time in prayer. It is good to study and meditate on His word.

None of those good things are necessary for salvation. None of those things need to be identical to what other Christians do or think.

There are false teachers and false doctrine, but to deny that the Holy Spirit is working though other churches does not promote His kingdom.

None of this should be taken to imply that these are unimportant. A Christian should know why his church teaches what it does. A Christian should also be aware of alternative views and the Biblical teaching from their point of view, but these should be approached in a spirit of understanding rather than trying to turn some other church into a copy of yours, or to impede their witness.

I truly believe that this family squabbling among our brothers causes great harm, both to unbelievers, and to the less mature believers.

 

[CCW95A]

The "Perfect" is the mature/complete Bible....a THING. It just can not be SOMEONE!

God told Abraham "walk before me and be perfect...". Scripture tells us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Does that mean to be sinless? No. Was Abraham sinless? No. Yet he was perfect in his walk by believing "perfectly" in what God told him. Abraham became "mature" in what he believed by not staggering at the promises through unbelief. The "perfect" is not the Bible it is a person who has grown from a child to a full grown man in his/her believing.
Staggering has to do with walking, which has to do with walking perfectly with God, which only comes by believing God's Word perfectly.