Absolutly correct. Very well said.
An honest question to cessationists
- Thread starter Mykuhl
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Absolutly correct. Very well said.
I agree totally and that is the reason why Scripture MUST be posted as a basis for truth so as to limit ones opinion or denominational teaching.
Psalm 119:160.........
The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
Daniel 10:21 ...........
But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.
John 17:17............
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth
I am referring to the sign gifts being in use today/having ceased issue.
1.
Seems to me that Paul is referring to the incident in Numbers 12:8.........
"With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”
On another occasion Paul says the writings were an enigma compared to the revelations contained in the gospel and that is found in 2 Corth. 3:12-13.
2.
The gifts we have been talking about, and they are said by Paul in his own words to be "Temporary and will cease". It seems to me that he knew and understood that complete maturity will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus either at death or the Rapture. It is at that time we will achieve complete maturity and perfect knowledge.
It means that the gifts are fragmentary and only a means to an end. His advice is to keep our eyes on the goal and not on the means towards achieving that end.
Major,
May I ask why you interpret the scriptures that you referenced to mean that the sign gifts have ceased as that the "perfect thing" talked about is the bible?
I realize that you have stated reasons why you believe this in scripture but I why do you view it in this manner while others(such as myself) view those scriptures differently? You mentioned that it doesn't derive from a denominational bias. But it has to come from somewhere if you hold your current view so strongly.
1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
if we use that verse as to support of "cease" of "tounges" , i think we need to take the 2 as well "prophecies" and "knowledge"....
surely, we know in part....
if we use that verse as to support of "cease" of "tounges" , i think we need to take the 2 as well "prophecies" and "knowledge"....
surely, we know in part....
See, this precisely we are saying that the sign gifts still are and need to be in operation today. Because complete maturity for us will not be able for us to do until we see Jesus at death or the rapture. That it why I said earlier that Paul was saying that these sign gifts will end when that time comes and not before. That is why I believe that the "perfect thing" mentioned is love...perfect love.
The fact that it is not plainly stated is the issue. You are making a concrete statement without concrete backing. As to the rapture, (based on some of your other comments, I'm guessing you follow the pre-trib ideology?) that is another issue entirely.
Directly, not so much, but scripture plainly states that creation is evidence.
I have spent a good deal of time in discussion with those trained and literate (as is possible) in the original languages. Some of whom I have agreed with and some not, and I've been shown where I was wrong more than once. I learned very early on in my walk with Jesus that much of what is taught is wrong.
It is also the reason that I make such a point of seeing where the doctrine a person professes as biblical actually is stated in the bible.
Your implication that I only look at things which support what I say is wrong, dismissive, and rather demeaning. I suggest refraining from such comments in other discussions. They tend to lead others toward simply tuning you out as it suggest that they only disagree because they haven't looked themselves.
To expand on what I stated (and this occurred to me afterward). One the will of man comes into play, then perfection is lost.
When correction is needed, then the thing corrected is by definition not perfect.
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We are all speakers here, we can relate to Paul as a speaker…
When as speaker: when we emphasize on something: we set instances or examples: 3 instances was mentioned: Prophecies, Tongues, Knowledge….. will cease…
That is: a SET….
If we take out one of the set, to support a position, without taking out the remaining 2, hmmm…. that can be a fallacy ….imo....
We are currently without ceasing yet, know in part…
Actually the entire verse points to the perfect yet to come where we will behold Jesus face to face and will know just as we are known...all in perfect keeping with our relationship with Jesus...which is speaking about the perfect yet to come, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. It is not speaking of the bible.
Prophecies..can fail in that years pass before we ever see them come to fruition...cos its on Gods timing.
Tongues cease when we stop talking...
Knowledge vanishes away cos we forget things.
But charity (love) never fails. Look at how when theres an earthquake and people dying and buried under rubble, we would run to help others. Or...someone abandons a child..someone who picks this child up and gives it love, and cares for it, will not fail.
In a spiritual emergency, what would you have, someone prophesy, speak in tongues or try and educate you? No, sometimes all we need is a hug from God.
Tongues cease when we stop talking...
Knowledge vanishes away cos we forget things.
But charity (love) never fails. Look at how when theres an earthquake and people dying and buried under rubble, we would run to help others. Or...someone abandons a child..someone who picks this child up and gives it love, and cares for it, will not fail.
In a spiritual emergency, what would you have, someone prophesy, speak in tongues or try and educate you? No, sometimes all we need is a hug from God.
Prophecy never fails, if it is from God. Some prophecies made over 2500 years ago are still valid and coming to pass. Tongues never fail because the Church of Jesus Christ is till availing herself of it, and the gift of knowledge continues, and that has nothing to do with your cerebral collection of information, either. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation everywhere and always.
"Perfect" is not a "thing" , it can only be a person, and just to make sure we do not get it wrong he uses the analogy of a person going from a child to a full grown man.
tel'-i-os "Perfect" (Strong's Concordance)
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
1Co 13:10.. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11.. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
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Since God is perfect no man shal ever be perfect but we can be perfected unto His image and ways.
Brother, see that word "mature" in this scripture, it is the exact same word used in that which is "perfect" is come.
Php 3:15 Let those of us who are mature (perfect) think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.
If this was not possible then the five fold ministry is useless, as that is exactly what their job is to do.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
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You used the wrong Greek word!!!! You posted the word TEL'-I-OS.
The word used by Paul is actually Teleion !!!
Again, 3 times now I have said that the Greek phrase so translated in most translations is teleion--neuter in gender, not masculine. In this context (in 1 Cor. 13:8-10) it is set over against, or contrasted with, ek merous, which most translations correctly translate "in part."
Teleion is the neuter form of teleios, which the Greek lexicons tell us means complete as opposed to incomplete, mature as opposed to immature, final (form), whole, perfect, full as opposed to partly full. How in the world can anyone think that can apply to Christ or His 2nd coming is way beyond my understanding. If you want to do that, fine with me. I am not arguing the case just presenting grammatical evidence.
Arndt & Gringrich give as the first definition, "complete, bring to an end, finish, accomplish" (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature [The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1957], p. 816). Just what word or words best translate it in a given place is determined largely by the context. This is important to keep in mind.
Many people read the common translation of to teleion ("that which is perfect") and fixate on this word PERFECT. Immediately they ask themselves, "Who or what is perfect? (usually thinking "WHO is perfect" more than "WHAT is perfect?"). And they think of "perfect" in the sense of absolutely flawless, or totally without sin, perfect as Jesus or God are perfect, perfect as Heaven is perfect. That is not the case here no matter how much we try to make it that.
Now, considered apart from the context that thinking might be okay. But we have to consider 1 Cor. 13:10 in the light of two things:
1) the context, and
2) the common or core meaning of to teleion.
Considered in that light "the teleion" of 1 Cor. 13:10 does not refer to Christ, the second coming of Christ, or Heaven.
Is this not the right word? My Bible gives me this #number. Is your Bible different from mine?
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
It comes my friend from the literal interpretation of those Scriptures. They are what they say they are and no more and no less.
The numbers mean nothing to me. If this whole site agreed with you and the others it simply would not matter to me.
I can not se how the words "WILL cease" and "will fail" can be ignored and rejected.
The only question then is WHEN will that happen? Allow me show you what happens.
OK. Lets say that it is Jesus. That is one of the arguments posted. He is perfect and has come. So then that answers the question.
BUT when you understand the meaning of the actual literal words by Paul they do not fit Christ.s incarnation. He is NOT MATURE. He is God!!! He is NOT set over against, or contrasted with, ek merous, which most translations correctly translate "in part." Christ is certainly not IN PART as the meaning says.
So what do we do???? We change it again. The perfect then must be the Church. The Church is the PERFECT!!!
BUT wait, does the church look perfect to you???? It is made up of sinners and some go right on committing sin while a member of the church. How then can that be called perfection????? Perfection being like heaven of course, without flaws.
So what do we do????? We change it again!!! We make the PERFECT the 2nd Coming of Christ. Do you see what is going on??? Go back and read the comments on just this thread and you will see that these explinations have all be tendered. WHY??????? Because the actual literal words and meaning are rejected.
BUT again, we know that the 2nd Coming of Christ is not the PERFECT because Revelation 20 tells us that there will be a rebellion at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ. That rules out the PERFECT being the 2nd Coming because ALL sin will not be eradicated until Satan is placed into the lake of fire.
Now what do YOU think is going to be the explination of the PERFECT after people read what I just posted??????
Change it to another event? Maybe the next explination will be that the PERFECT is the Lake of Fire.
Paul used "teleios", referring to being of full age, mature, complete, and when one reads the entire passage, one knows that it is about the Kingdom of Christ coming, and the Person of Christ, which is the completion of the Church age, and the one referred to when it is said, "we see...then face to face" and, "shall I know even as I am known", which can only refer to the Person of Jesus Christ. One doesn't encounter a bible face to face, nor is known by the bible.