An honest question to cessationists

[Major]

You must be a self-appointed mayor, Major! I also live in Realville and I live according to what the word of God says...not what I want it to say. Some people miss the truth because they were taught otherwise. Holy Spirit desires that we EXPERIENCE Him.

No, but to go into it would be a long story and no one cares what we do or did years ago my sister.

And I agree with you completely. Some people really do miss the truth because of what they were taught otherwise.

I know you were not suggesting that I "do not live according to what the word of God says...not what I want it to say."

That would not be a proper and Christian comment to make to anyone simply because they do not agree with what someone else believes. It would ruin the testimony of Love one to another that we as believers are told to have.

God bless you.

 

[Euphemia]

What Bible verse would you use as a basis for your comment?

1 Corinthians 14:14-15
For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. 15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

There is the public ministry gift and also the private gift of praying in tongues, that gives strength and edification to the believer.

Paul states that the believer is praying when he or she speaks in tongues, but the mind (or the human understanding) does not benefit, thus Paul says he prays with his spirit (in tongues) and prays with his mind (in his regular human language), and that he will sing with his spirit (in tongues) and will sing with his mind (in his regular human language). He then says, otherwise, if you don't do it this way, how will a person in the room (who is unlearned of tongues) say "amen" to your words, seeing that he has no idea what you are talking about? You are truly giving thanks well, but the other person is not edified (since tongues only edifies the one who is speaking).

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Absolutely correct my brother!!!


I am the Mayor of Realville and I live in the truth of life where the rubber meets the road and while I would love to agree with my brothers and sisters on these Sign gifts the truth is I am called to believe what the Scriptures actually do say and NOT what I want them to say.

Greetings Major,
Ah I see once again our paths cross ! lol No dis respect so please do not take it this way. There has been enough of people twisting things others have said and turning the forum into a battle zone.

I would like to believe what you say here is true but you have given Nothing to work with so I ask of you to show me how this could be so ?

You seem to be thinking from too small of a box here. It sounds as if in your thinking signs and wonders are all old testament things to you such as partying the sea and staffs turning into snakes and lighting coming down from the sky.

Truth of the matter is when Jesus says these works we shall do and even greater then these for He goes to the Father is something you can only push out through human reasoning.
Everything Jesus did while He was on this earth He did it as a "man" filled with the spirit of God or the Holy Spirit just as we are to be walking. His life is a set pattern on how each and every born again believer should be walking.

Jesus said many times He can only do what the the Father does and He only says what He hears the Father say. This should be us if we were smart enough to grasp hold of this and seek God whole heartedly. Speaking His words and doing His words. I know for most Christians that is to much work and it is easier to throw out and dismiss things so we do not have to deal with it. It still does not change what He said.

Further more signs and wonders regardless of how you "feel" about them are still very much a part of truly spirit filled Christians. What are these signs and wonders. Well they are EVIDENCE seen through a believer by the things God is doing through them.

So Mr. Mayor of realsville, your honor lets say God tells you to start praying for other realsville council members and to tell them that you are. Then these people begin to see things change in and around their lives. They run to you and share their inner most concerns and you take hold of their hands and pray. God moves on their behalf through you.

Well it would not take some spiritual giant to see the things God is doing as you pray for realsville. Now then these things that people see and draws them to you Mr Mayor who is praying for his town, well your honor they are know as signs and wonders which are NOT for believers but to draw the UN_believers and doubting unto the ways of God.

Now you tell me how this was only way back when and how realsville can not possibly be seeing these things called signs and wonders ? Well My Brother Mr Major Mayor sir, What will you say unto me and all of those in realsville to this.? Sorry Major but writing this was just too much fun so please do not take the Mayor of realsville as anything other then something FUNNY THAT YOU STARTED !

Thank You Major and have a very blessed day
God Bless YOU
Jim

 

[Major]

1 Corinthians 14:14-15
For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying. 15 Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

There is the public ministry gift and also the private gift of praying in tongues, that gives strength and edification to the believer.

Paul states that the believer is praying when he or she speaks in tongues, but the mind (or the human understanding) does not benefit, thus Paul says he prays with his spirit (in tongues) and prays with his mind (in his regular human language), and that he will sing with his spirit (in tongues) and will sing with his mind (in his regular human language). He then says, otherwise, if you don't do it this way, how will a person in the room (who is unlearned of tongues) say "amen" to your words, seeing that he has no idea what you are talking about? You are truly giving thanks well, but the other person is not edified (since tongues only edifies the one who is speaking).

No argument from me. I think the key to all is stated by Paul and he says it clearly:.......
"and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand."

That seems very clear to me.

 

[Mykuhl]

No argument from me. I think the key to all is stated by Paul and he says it clearly:.......
"and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand."

That seems very clear to me.

I don't see the issue then Major. You acknowledged the latter of that verse but not the former? He says he will do both in that verse. Paul acknowledged both types of tongues.

 

[Euphemia]

No argument from me. I think the key to all is stated by Paul and he says it clearly:.......
"and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand."

That seems very clear to me.

Exactly. That is what he practiced and many millions of others continue to practice to this very day---me included. We pray and sing in our natural language and also in our spiritual language. Is that also just as clear to you?

 

[Mykuhl]

I agree with you King. In fact if we read the Scriptures tongues were HEARD and not spoken.

I want to be very careful here and I do not want to offend anyone at all. We have talked around this now for a long time so I thought we could face it straight on. This is only an OPINION and as I have said before, NO ONE has to accept my opinion,
however that doe snot mean we have to be mean spirited and obnocuouse toward each other. That is not my goal in life.

Having said that I think we all can see that there is a great divide on this issue. On one hand you have those who see the extremes and disbelieve all of it because of the abuses that are done by some people. On the other hand you have those who make the spiritual gifts a measurement of proof that one is spiritual which leads to the idea that :
"I am more spiritual than you are because I can.............".

The fact is, some of the most unspiritual acting people and teachings comes from those claiming to be believers who claim that they are under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

If someone insists that tongues must be the sign proving the Spirit is received, then they need to include “tongues of fire” as a continuing event as well. WHY???? Because since the first time tongues was given to multiple saints at the same time the fire (shekinah glory ) was seen over their heads.

When we see the tongues first being used, it was at Pentecost in Acts 2:4. The miracle of tongues was that those who spoke them did not know the language but those who heard understood them in their own language vs.8,11. There was no interpreter. So tongues were a known languages but unknown to those who spoke it.

Now that is NOT what we see today in churches everywhere where tongues are spoken. The tongues spoken today can not be understood even if there was someone there to interpret what was uttered.

If it is a tongue it has to be known since the word means language and languages are for communication. Our example is the fact that the tongues spoken at Pentecost were the languages of men. They understood what they were saying in their own language.

According to Acts 2:5, they are not some ecstatic utterance that no one knows. If you choose not to agree I still love you but to me God is a God of revelation and communication to man to reveal himself in the Lord Jesus Christ. Anything that takes away from that process must be questioned and examined.

1 Cor. 12:10 states this gift of languages as “kinds of tongues” and diversities of tongues” in vs.28. The word is glossa in Greek means a language used by a particular people that distinguished it from other ones. The word for “kind” and “diversities” in Greek is yenos which means a race, stock, family, nationality. All this points to it being the language of man.

In 1 Cor. 14:1-5 Paul uses the Greek word glossa meaning tongue; Luke uses this word and further defines it as being a dialektos as seen in Acts 1:19; 2:6,8; 21:40; 22:2; 26:14, which is a word that in every case refers to the language of a nation or a region.
(cf. Arndt, p. 184).

Just because people abuse the use of tongues and other gifts does not make them any less real. Even Paul had to address this problem in the Corinthian church.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Just because people abuse the use of tongues and other gifts does not make them any less real. Even Paul had to address this problem in the Corinthian church.

Brother it is simply not people abusing the use of tongues for healing and so much other area's of God and His ways are dismissed as null and void in this day and hour. These people limit God and His word through human understanding and reasoning and tradition and religion [assed down generation to generation such as old wise tales.

This reply is no DIRECTED TO ANY PRECISE INDIVIDUAL IN THIS FORUM .......
Blessings
Mykuhl
jim

 

[Major]

Greetings Major,
Ah I see once again our paths cross ! lol No dis respect so please do not take it this way. There has been enough of people twisting things others have said and turning the forum into a battle zone.

I would like to believe what you say here is true but you have given Nothing to work with so I ask of you to show me how this could be so ?

You seem to be thinking from too small of a box here. It sounds as if in your thinking signs and wonders are all old testament things to you such as partying the sea and staffs turning into snakes and lighting coming down from the sky.

Truth of the matter is when Jesus says these works we shall do and even greater then these for He goes to the Father is something you can only push out through human reasoning.
Everything Jesus did while He was on this earth He did it as a "man" filled with the spirit of God or the Holy Spirit just as we are to be walking. His life is a set pattern on how each and every born again believer should be walking.

Jesus said many times He can only do what the the Father does and He only says what He hears the Father say. This should be us if we were smart enough to grasp hold of this and seek God whole heartedly. Speaking His words and doing His words. I know for most Christians that is to much work and it is easier to throw out and dismiss things so we do not have to deal with it. It still does not change what He said.

Further more signs and wonders regardless of how you "feel" about them are still very much a part of truly spirit filled Christians. What are these signs and wonders. Well they are EVIDENCE seen through a believer by the things God is doing through them.

So Mr. Mayor of realsville, your honor lets say God tells you to start praying for other realsville council members and to tell them that you are. Then these people begin to see things change in and around their lives. They run to you and share their inner most concerns and you take hold of their hands and pray. God moves on their behalf through you.

Well it would not take some spiritual giant to see the things God is doing as you pray for realsville. Now then these things that people see and draws them to you Mr Mayor who is praying for his town, well your honor they are know as signs and wonders which are NOT for believers but to draw the UN_believers and doubting unto the ways of God.

Now you tell me how this was only way back when and how realsville can not possibly be seeing these things called signs and wonders ? Well My Brother Mr Major Mayor sir, What will you say unto me and all of those in realsville to this.? Sorry Major but writing this was just too much fun so please do not take the Mayor of realsville as anything other then something FUNNY THAT YOU STARTED !

Thank You Major and have a very blessed day
God Bless YOU
Jim

Hello Jim. I do not expect you to go back and read all the pages that have been produced but allow me to tell you that I have given more than enough Scripture for anyone to work with that actually wants to know what the Scriptures do say.

I am not sure what you are asking me to respond to as there seems to only be a comment and not a question. Your comment has a feeling of sarcasm to it but I know that you would not do that intentionally so I will leave it alone.

The people that know me know that God has called all of us to pray for our brothers and sisters on a regular basis. I even stopped what I was doing when YOU informed us all about your boat and your project and prayed for your success. Our church doors are unlocked everyday so that people came come and go as they wish and sit at the alter of God and pray as they desire and are moved to do so. So to answer your question, we, I do pray for everyone including you my friend because God calls for us to do that.

As for moving mountains, I have no need to do that. I only have a need to reach out to the lost with the gospel so that they might hear and be saved.

The Realville thing started along time ago when the church I was at began to minister to those ladies who were single and pregnant and had been kicked out of there homes by their parents. We as a church bought a home and turned it into a kind of McDonald's House where the women could live for no charge, clean and take care of it until they delivered their baby and able to get back into the game of life. We accepted ALL women no matter what the problems were in their lives and those women started saying that the church "was REAL" to them. Hence the name.

It is no big deal but if it causes you pleasure then run with it. That was some time ago so It really does not apply unless you get joy from it!

Jim, we all will never agree with everything that someone else believes. There are several people here including you that believe in apostles and prophets and signs and wonders. I am not one of them but that should not cause anyone to be rejected or argued with or angry over something that does not matter one way or the other as a Christian Essential to the Faith.

I state what the Bible says and comment on what I have learned over the years and believe. IF you and the others do not like my comments then that is your choice to do so just as the opposite is for me. That choice should in no way lead any of us to be angry or argumenitive or confrontational and I hope I have not been to anyone.

 

[Major]

Just because people abuse the use of tongues and other gifts does not make them any less real. Even Paul had to address this problem in the Corinthian church.

Correct. The Corinthian letters are referred to as "Corrective" letters. They were written to the church because ethey were not doing what was supposed to be done.

You see, the city of Corinth was a huge trade center for shipping. People came from all over the world to its port and they brought their religions with them. If you will do a little research you will see that the "utterances or tongues" was a practice done in foreign countries and when those men came to the Christian church in Corinth they brought that practice with them and incorporated it into the church.

Studies have indicated that tongues were not a uniquely Christian practice. Tongues were practiced by a large number of native non-Christian living religions around the world.

Other historical studies have shown that tongues were in non-Christian religions in Malaysia, Indonesia, Siberia, Arctic regions, China, Japan, Korea, Arabia, and Burma, among other places. It is also present extensively in African tribal religions.

For that reason among others Paul wrote to correct what they were doing and it is one of the reason why he said in 1 Corth. 14:22..........
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign NOT TO BELIEVERS but to them that BELIEVE NOT, but prophesying (Teaching Gr.) serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe".

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Hello Jim. I do not expect you to go back and read all the pages that have been produced but allow me to tell you that I have given more than enough Scripture for anyone to work with that actually wants to know what the Scriptures do say.

I am not sure what you are asking me to respond to as there seems to only be a comment and not a question. Your comment has a feeling of sarcasm to it but I know that you would not do that intentionally so I will leave it alone.

The people that know me know that God has called all of us to pray for our brothers and sisters on a regular basis. I even stopped what I was doing when YOU informed us all about your boat and your project and prayed for your success. Our church doors are unlocked everyday so that people came come and go as they wish and sit at the alter of God and pray as they desire and are moved to do so. So to answer your question, we, I do pray for everyone including you my friend because God calls for us to do that.

As for moving mountains, I have no need to do that. I only have a need to reach out to the lost with the gospel so that they might hear and be saved.

The Realville thing started along time ago when the church I was at began to minister to those ladies who were single and pregnant and had been kicked out of there homes by their parents. We as a church bought a home and turned it into a kind of McDonald's House where the women could live for no charge, clean and take care of it until they delivered their baby and able to get back into the game of life. We accepted ALL women no matter what the problems were in their lives and those women started saying that the church "was REAL" to them. Hence the name.

It is no big deal but if it causes you pleasure then run with it. That was some time ago so It really does not apply unless you get joy from it!

Jim, we all will never agree with everything that someone else believes. There are several people here including you that believe in apostles and prophets and signs and wonders. I am not one of them but that should not cause anyone to be rejected or argued with or angry over something that does not matter one way or the other as a Christian Essential to the Faith.

I state what the Bible says and comment on what I have learned over the years and believe. IF you and the others do not like my comments then that is your choice to do so just as the opposite is for me. That choice should in no way lead any of us to be angry or argumenitive or confrontational and I hope I have not been to anyone.

I am hlaf wayout the door here but wanted to give a quick reply. It was good of youi to not allow the sarcastic thing to take root for I said many times I was having fun with the entire reply. I thought we agreed in the PM that neither of us would write in that matter to one another ?

Any way have a blessed day and I will reply when I am not moving.
Blessings
Jim

 

[Major]

I am hlaf wayout the door here but wanted to give a quick reply. It was good of youi to not allow the sarcastic thing to take root for I said many times I was having fun with the entire reply. I thought we agreed in the PM that neither of us would write in that matter to one another ?

Any way have a blessed day and I will reply when I am not moving.
Blessings
Jim

Understood. It just seemed a little different than your normal.

 

[Major]

Exactly. That is what he practiced and many millions of others continue to practice to this very day---me included. We pray and sing in our natural language and also in our spiritual language. Is that also just as clear to you?

I am not the one you need to worry about sister as I am not the enemy. If you are happy with what you do then may God bless you.

I do not care what you do or how you worship. From the very beginning I have only tried to explain why "I" do not do what you do when it comes to tongues and signs and I have used the Scriptures extensively as the basis of my comments.

 

[Mykuhl]

Correct. The Corinthian letters are referred to as "Corrective" letters. They were written to the church because ethey were not doing what was supposed to be done.

You see, the city of Corinth was a huge trade center for shipping. People came from all over the world to its port and they brought their religions with them. If you will do a little research you will see that the "utterances or tongues" was a practice done in foreign countries and when those men came to the Christian church in Corinth they brought that practice with them.

For that reason among others Paul wrote to correct what they were doing and it is one of the reason why he said in 1 Corth. 14:22
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign NOT TO BELIEVERS but to them that BELIEVE NOT, but prophesying (Teaching Gr.) serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe".

This may be so Major but there is no evidence in the Corinthian letters that these pagan tongues were being used in the Corinthian church. Paul does not rebuke them for using pagan tongues, in fact he doesn't even mention it. What he does do is correct them for their disorderly use of tongues, as well as the other disorder in their meetings. This is clearly shown in 1 Corinthians 14:26-40.

 

[Euphemia]

I am not the one you need to worry about sister as I am not the enemy. If you are happy with what you do then may God bless you.

I do not care what you do or how you worship. From the very beginning I have only tried to explain why "I" do not do what you do when it comes to tongues and signs and I have used the Scriptures extensively as the basis of my comments.

Why do you think I worry?

There are no scriptural supports for denial of the work of the Holy Spirit in His people. To insist that there are is a serious issue, but your not receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not. One can live a decently good Christian life without it, but there is so much more for us that God wants to give us. He wants to endow us with His power for living, and to move in the authority of Jesus, and to do the works of Christ, just as His disciples employed and enjoyed. What a joy it is to be able to pray for and lay hands on others who need a touch from the Lord and see them healed, and receiving that which they require! What a joy also it is to go forth knowing that there will be success in the end because of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit who will go before us and make those crooked ways straight, opening doors that are locked shut to us, to do what He has called us to do. Move mountains? Yessirree!

 

[naomanos]

While I am certainly not a cessationist, I do believe that not all will speak or pray in tongues. My wife has desired to pray in tongues for far longer than I have been a Christian, but still hasn't prayed in tongues. I know other Christians who do not pray in tongues and I know Christians that do. So that tells me not all will pray in tongues as not all need to do so.

Either way, the Holy Spirit gifts people with the gifts that will be needed by the believer, and not everyone needs to pray in tongues, just as not everyone needs to be a teacher or an evangelist.

I am very happy to be a Lutheran as they believe as I do, well at least I know my pastor does. It's good to be in a church that believes just as I do on theology.

 

[Euphemia]

Praying in tongues is something than every Christian CAN do under submission of the Holy Spirit. It is not one of the ministry gifts, but is an ability that all have the ability to do in His power. If one wants it, one just needs to keep asking like I did, and it will come.

It is not a question of needing it, but the Lord is blessed by it when we do. He is pleased to edify His children in such a way as that.

 

[naomanos]

Praying in tongues is something than every Christian CAN do under submission of the Holy Spirit. It is not one of the ministry gifts, but is an ability that all have the ability to do in His power. Keep asking like I did and it will come.

I will just agree to disagree.

My wife has been asking for nearly 10 years and still hasn't.

 

[Major]

This may be so Major but there is no evidence in the Corinthian letters that these pagan tongues were being used in the Corinthian church. Paul does not rebuke them for using pagan tongues, in fact he doesn't even mention it. What he does do is correct them for their disorderly use of tongues, as well as the other disorder in their meetings. This is clearly shown in 1 Corinthians 14:26-40.

Actually there is quiet a lot of historical information on just that subject. I am not going to do the work as I have already done but it is there for you if you choose to follow up on it. This practice is not only a recent phenomenon, but was common in pagan worship long before Christ came and there is much about how the tongues were practice in the Temple of Diane in the City of Corinth.

The Corinthian Christians sent Paul a letter asking him for advice about a number of topics, including the topic of tongues. They had been speaking in tongues frequently, and they asked him about this spiritual gift. Their letter gave him an opportunity to give them the guidance they needed. Paul lists various gifts, including "speaking in different kinds of tongues, and...the interpretation of tongues" (verse 10).

In chapter 12, Paul begins a new section, which contains comments on tongues. "Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant" (verse 1). They needed instruction to help them use their spiritual gifts in a helpful way which is why he laid out the procedures for them. Never more than two speaking at once and always an interpreter.

I would encourage you to find a copy of and read Robert G. Gromacki, in "The Modern Tongues Movement (pp 5-10)".

He documents the history of “speaking in tongues” in antiquity. Some of these ecstatic babbling were reported in the “Report of Wenamon” (about 1100 BC), Plato’s Dialogues (5th century BC), and Virgil’s Aeneid (1st century BC). The Graeco-Roman mystery religions before and after the Christian era most probably practiced these babbling utterances. - (http://www.twoagespilgrims.com/doct...ern-speaking-in-tongues/#sthash.tbQn6W4a.dpuf)

 

[Euphemia]

I will just agree to disagree.

My wife has been asking for nearly 10 years and still hasn't.

Only ten years? Tell her to not give up, and to keep seeking the Baptizer, Jesus.