An honest question to cessationists

[Euphemia]

My dear sister.......the grammatical Greek language can not be changed to suit or wants. It is just not possible.

The "Perfect" is the mature/complete Bible....a THING. It just can not be SOMEONE!

IF you or the others want to do the sign gifts and so on, please do so but do not fall into the trap that it is a Bible directive because it simple is not.

Oh, it's a thing, alright---it is the time of Jesus' return to rule and reign. What is perfected or made complete is the CHURCH AGE---and it occurs when the Perfect, Jesus Christ, comes for her.

Until then, we who are empowered and filled with the Holy Spirit's anointing, will walk in the gifts we are given---as instructed by God. Don't YOU fall into the trap of believing that God doesn't mean that for you!

 

[Euphemia]

Not the case my sister and I have to disagree with you.

Not only do I disagree with you, but so does the Lord.

 

[Euphemia]

I think its safe to say that I am apparently unfamiliar with the passages that support the doctrine you are espousing.

I do know of the pentacost event where this occurred.
I know of where John the baptist referred to baptism of the Holy Spirit, but most mentions of baptism do not include speaking in tongues.
This is touching on banned topics, so I recommend taking this to a conversation, but I would like to know what passages you fall on to support your doctrine. Care to help me out?

Every mention of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit includes the fact that they spoke in tongues. Read Acts.

 

[eric m williams]

Every mention of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit includes the fact that they spoke in tongues. Read Acts.

Have done and just completed it again. Unless I missed a great deal, your statement is incorrect.

The overall picture here is that speaking in tongues as you espouse it happens as a large scale signature event rather than an across the board commonality.
Acts 2: 4-11
The pentacost. We all recognize this one.

Acts 2: 38-41
Thousands baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 8 :12-19
Now here it speaks of Simon being amazed, so there is definitely a possibility of one or more of the sensational gifts being play, but speaking in other tongues is not specifically mentioned.

Acts 8: 36-39
The eunuch was baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 9: 17-18
Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit with no mention of other tongues

Acts 10:44-46
What is sometimes called the second pentacost or gentile pentacost with a similar display as the first.

Acts 16:14-15
Lydia was baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 16: 31-34
The jailer and his family were baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 18:8
Crispus and his household were baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 18:24-28
This speaks of Apollos and John’s baptism.

Acts 19:1-7
Here it speaks of those in Ephesus who were baptized and then spoke in tongues.

 

[Euphemia]

Have done and just completed it again. Unless I missed a great deal, your statement is incorrect.

The overall picture here is that speaking in tongues as you espouse it happens as a large scale signature event rather than an across the board commonality.
Acts 2: 4-11
The pentacost. We all recognize this one.

Acts 2: 38-41
Thousands baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 8 :12-19
Now here it speaks of Simon being amazed, so there is definitely a possibility of one or more of the sensational gifts being play, but speaking in other tongues is not specifically mentioned.

Acts 8: 36-39
The eunuch was baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 9: 17-18
Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit with no mention of other tongues

Acts 10:44-46
What is sometimes called the second pentacost or gentile pentacost with a similar display as the first.

Acts 16:14-15
Lydia was baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 16: 31-34
The jailer and his family were baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 18:8
Crispus and his household were baptized and no mention of other tongues

Acts 18:24-28
This speaks of Apollos and John’s baptism.

Acts 19:1-7
Here it speaks of those in Ephesus who were baptized and then spoke in tongues.

It is obvious that you've missed the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Read it again!

 

[Major]

Not only do I disagree with you, but so does the Lord.

That is perfectly fine with me as I am in no way an authority in anything. We are all simply servants of the most high God trying to live life and do good as we live it.

You may be absolutely correct. However you may also be wrong. What I am going to post now is going to appear to be a Bible Study response but it will I think give all of you my position. I simply do not like the back and forth "banter" without any Scripture as a basis for Biblical exegesis. That process then becomes driven by "opinion" and "denominational teachings" and not the Scriptures.

I understand completely why those who argue that the sign gifts are still active today. Heck, I used the same arguments when I was of like thinking as some of you. That is because it is the backbone of the Charismatic Pentecostal faith and is just not something you reject or deny. I got it!!!!!

As we look back to 1 Corinthians chapter 12, Paul began a discussion of the temporary spiritual gifts, explaining in chapter 13 that love was more important than the spiritual gifts in the development of the church, the body of Christ. He said and later confirmed that these gifts were temporary. Now I understand why that is important to all of you but He said that by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that is the end of that. You can disagree with me all you want but please remember that I AM NOT THE ENEMY.
I simply someone who does not think as you do.

Now - as he closed chapter 13, Paul told the Corinthian Christians that these temporary gifts would cease when that which is perfect is come in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Now that is the hang up we have been discussing. Not just on this thread but on every one that comes up on this subject. Paul wrote, referring to the gifts, "whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away".

Now you who are in favor of the sign gifts being valid today, please remember that it is what our Apostle to the gentiles, Paul actually wrote and not my opinion or thoughts for ME to disagree with the Words of God through Paul as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

Paul then said, For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away as we saw in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10. Paul spoke of the part being done away, when that which is perfect is come. The word perfect, as used by Paul, has the primary meaning of completeness, of being finished, of being fully developed.

So Paul said that the part would be done away with when the whole was completed, or perfect. The purpose of the miraculous spiritual gifts was to provide temporary guidance and help to the early church. The apostles went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following which is the Word of God in Mark 16:20.

That type of miraculous guidance is no longer needed by the church today, however, because we have the written will of Christ, the New Testament. Also, there are no more apostles to exercise those spiritual gifts or pass them on to others. I have posted the requirements of an Apostle and one of those is that they HAD TO HAVE SEEN JESUS CHRIST. That is what the Bible says and is not something I just pulled out of the air. Please do the work for yourself and see what you find in the Word of God and do not rely on what I say.

God planned the gifts for the temporary, in part period before the Word of God was made available. They were not planned to last until the end of time as some suggest and some still believe them to be active today. LOOK at the words yourself!!!!!!!
The emphasis of the passage is that the gifts shall cease in 13:8.

But Paul is not the only one to establish this teaching. James made this clear: ........
James 1:17 says......
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James here used the word perfect in the sense of completeness, of being finished, of being whole. In the same chapter, James wrote in verse 25..........
" But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James spoke of the perfect or complete law of liberty. The law of liberty that Christians live by is the New Testament.

The New Testament is that which is perfect. With the completion of the New Testament, the perfect law of liberty, there was no longer any need for the temporary gifts, or modern revelations. God's written word is complete, finished, perfect.

As Paul wrote to Timothy in his 2nd epistle 3:16-17.......
" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

The scriptures can make the man of God perfect, or complete, and ready to every good work.

 

[eric m williams]

If you know what I've missed, pleased just post it.
Conversely, you could examine the passages I've listed.

I have read the book more times than I have counted and I've repeatedly missed what you are referring to...

In the past, every time someone who espouses speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation has gone to scripture to show me what they are talking about, they could not do it without adding things that simply were not there. That includes a number of pastors who were educated in the doctrine.

Here is a chance for you to who me what I'm missing, but if all you can or are going to say is "Read it again!" then we are done here.

If you can or will provide the passages you obliquely refer to I'll happily examine and pray over them, but if you will not or cannot I see no point in trying to understand something that someone says about scripture when they refuse to or are unable to show where what they are talking about is actually in scripture.


Just for the record, Euphemia, I am fine with you not responding to my questions. I am used to it. It has been true throughout most of my dealings with other believers. We have even seen it on this same thread.
I ask questions about what others believe and why and that makes folks uncomfortable.
I don't like it, but I get it.

 

[Major]

Every mention of people being baptized in the Holy Spirit includes the fact that they spoke in tongues. Read Acts.

My dear sister, that is simply not true. Speaking in tongues is not mentioned in the accounts of the Samaritans receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 8 and the account of Paul receiving the Spirit in Acts 9.

Then your argument completely ignores the fact that there were two different groups who received the baptism in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost: ........
1) the hundred and twenty who received it in Acts 2:4 and spoke with other tongues and ...
2) the three thousand who received it on the streets of Jerusalem pursuant to Peter's promise in Acts 2:38 and who are said to have led drastically changed and empowered lives but are never said to have spoken in tongues.

I think that we all should realize that God isn't a machine, and can't be reduced to operating only by formulas devised for our convenience in maintaining church organizations and denominational teachings.

 

[Euphemia]

That is perfectly fine with me as I am in no way an authority in anything. We are all simply servants of the most high God trying to live life and do good as we live it.

You may be absolutely correct. However you may also be wrong. What I am going to post now is going to appear to be a Bible Study response but it will I think give all of you my position. I simply do not like the back and forth "banter" without any Scripture as a basis for Biblical exegesis. That process then becomes driven by "opinion" and "denominational teachings" and not the Scriptures.

I understand completely why those who argue that the sign gifts are still active today. Heck, I used the same arguments when I was of like thinking as some of you. That is because it is the backbone of the Charismatic Pentecostal faith and is just not something you reject or deny. I got it!!!!!

As we look back to 1 Corinthians chapter 12, Paul began a discussion of the temporary spiritual gifts, explaining in chapter 13 that love was more important than the spiritual gifts in the development of the church, the body of Christ. He said and later confirmed that these gifts were temporary. Now I understand why that is important to all of you but He said that by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that is the end of that. You can disagree with me all you want but please remember that I AM NOT THE ENEMY.
I simply someone who does not think as you do.

Now - as he closed chapter 13, Paul told the Corinthian Christians that these temporary gifts would cease when that which is perfect is come in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Now that is the hang up we have been discussing. Not just on this thread but on every one that comes up on this subject. Paul wrote, referring to the gifts, "whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away".

Now you who are in favor of the sign gifts being valid today, please remember that it is what our Apostle to the gentiles, Paul actually wrote and not my opinion or thoughts for ME to disagree with the Words of God through Paul as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

Paul then said, For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away as we saw in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10. Paul spoke of the part being done away, when that which is perfect is come. The word perfect, as used by Paul, has the primary meaning of completeness, of being finished, of being fully developed.

So Paul said that the part would be done away with when the whole was completed, or perfect. The purpose of the miraculous spiritual gifts was to provide temporary guidance and help to the early church. The apostles went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following which is the Word of God in Mark 16:20.

That type of miraculous guidance is no longer needed by the church today, however, because we have the written will of Christ, the New Testament. Also, there are no more apostles to exercise those spiritual gifts or pass them on to others. I have posted the requirements of an Apostle and one of those is that they HAD TO HAVE SEEN JESUS CHRIST. That is what the Bible says and is not something I just pulled out of the air. Please do the work for yourself and see what you find in the Word of God and do not rely on what I say.

God planned the gifts for the temporary, in part period before the Word of God was made available. They were not planned to last until the end of time as some suggest and some still believe them to be active today. LOOK at the words yourself!!!!!!!
The emphasis of the passage is that the gifts shall cease in 13:8.

But Paul is not the only one to establish this teaching. James made this clear: ........
James 1:17 says......
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James here used the word perfect in the sense of completeness, of being finished, of being whole. In the same chapter, James wrote in verse 25..........
" But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James spoke of the perfect or complete law of liberty. The law of liberty that Christians live by is the New Testament.

The New Testament is that which is perfect. With the completion of the New Testament, the perfect law of liberty, there was no longer any need for the temporary gifts, or modern revelations. God's written word is complete, finished, perfect.

As Paul wrote to Timothy in his 2nd epistle 3:16-17.......
" All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

The scriptures can make the man of God perfect, or complete, and ready to every good work.

Actually, the denial of the scriptures is the backbone of the cessationist.

Nothing has ceased, and the Church is in need of all the gifts or tools that Holy Spirit provides --to this very day.

I this not the New Testament scriptures that has taken the place of the power of Holy spirit in the life of the believer! That is only your errant denominational stance talking.

 

[Euphemia]

If you know what I've missed, pleased just post it.
Conversely, you could examine the passages I've listed.

I have read the book more times than I have counted and I've repeatedly missed what you are referring to...

In the past, every time someone who espouses speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation has gone to scripture to show me what they are talking about, they could not do it without adding things that simply were not there. That includes a number of pastors who were educated in the doctrine.

Here is a chance for you to who me what I'm missing, but if all you can or are going to say is "Read it again!" then we are done here.

If you can or will provide the passages you obliquely refer to I'll happily examine and pray over them, but if you will not or cannot I see no point in trying to understand something that someone says about scripture when they refuse to or are unable to show where what they are talking about is actually in scripture.


Just for the record, Euphemia, I am fine with you not responding to my questions. I am used to it. It has been true throughout most of my dealings with other believers. We have even seen it on this same thread.
I ask questions about what others believe and why and that makes folks uncomfortable.
I don't like it, but I get it.

It is most obvious that you cannot pick out the baptism of the Holy Spirit from water baptism. You do need to read the book of Acts again. Every single person spoken of who submitted to the baptism of the Holy Spirit came away rejoicing and speaking in tongues.

I am not uncomfortable about it, but for heaven's sake, do your homework. Read about Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 and the Gentiles who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as well, and read about the Ephesus believers in Acts 19, for starters.

 

[Major]

If you know what I've missed, pleased just post it.
Conversely, you could examine the passages I've listed.

I have read the book more times than I have counted and I've repeatedly missed what you are referring to...

In the past, every time someone who espouses speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation has gone to scripture to show me what they are talking about, they could not do it without adding things that simply were not there. That includes a number of pastors who were educated in the doctrine.

Here is a chance for you to who me what I'm missing, but if all you can or are going to say is "Read it again!" then we are done here.

If you can or will provide the passages you obliquely refer to I'll happily examine and pray over them, but if you will not or cannot I see no point in trying to understand something that someone says about scripture when they refuse to or are unable to show where what they are talking about is actually in scripture.


Just for the record, Euphemia, I am fine with you not responding to my questions. I am used to it. It has been true throughout most of my dealings with other believers. We have even seen it on this same thread.
I ask questions about what others believe and why and that makes folks uncomfortable.
I don't like it, but I get it.

Very well articulated eric.

Actually, the denial of the scriptures is the backbone of the cessationist.

Nothing has ceased, and the Church is in need of all the gifts or tools that Holy Spirit provides --to this very day.

I this not the New Testament scriptures that has taken the place of the power of Holy spirit in the life of the believer! That is only your errant denominational stance talking.

Actually, the denial of the scriptures is the backbone of the cessationist.

Nothing has ceased, and the Church is in need of all the gifts or tools that Holy Spirit provides --to this very day.

I this not the New Testament scriptures that has taken the place of the power of Holy spirit in the life of the believer! That is only your errant denominational stance talking.

MY dear sister.......you are only giving your opinion!!!!
You are not responding to the Scriptures given by me and others that oppose your stance.
You know very well that I DO NOT have a denomination stance at all and I have personally given you my history supporting that fact.

You are only giving us what YOU want and you are ignoring what has been given from the Word of God to support what actually is.

If that is all we are going to do please just let me know because I do not want to continue the back and fort of Scriptures being answered by an opinion.

 

[Major]

God told Abraham "walk before me and be perfect...". Scripture tells us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. Does that mean to be sinless? No. Was Abraham sinless? No. Yet he was perfect in his walk by believing "perfectly" in what God told him. Abraham became "mature" in what he believed by not staggering at the promises through unbelief. The "perfect" is not the Bible it is a person who has grown from a child to a full grown man in his/her believing.
Staggering has to do with walking, which has to do with walking perfectly with God, which only comes by believing God's Word perfectly.

I understand completely what you are saying and I understand why. However, can you now explain how the grammatical Greek can be changed in order to make the "Perfect" a person instead of a "thing".

The Greek word translated as "perfect" is the word teleion. in the passage of 1 Corinthians that we are discussing. It means something that is complete, perfect, whole, full-grown, ripe, mature, or adult. The word can be used in the nominative or accusative form, it refers to a single thing, and can refer to something that is either masculine or neuter. The fact that it is "that which is perfect" and not "he who is perfect" indicates that we are referring to a thing (neuter) and not a person.!!!!

How can we change that to make it mean the Lord Jesus Christ or even His 2nd Coming????

Something to consider is that the same word is used in James 1:25.........
"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

Interestingly, despite contentions elsewhere, this particular word is not used in connection with Christ, though it is used to describe mature Christians in I Corinthians 2:6; Ephesians 4:13; James 1:4.

 

[Euphemia]

Very well articulated eric.



MY dear sister.......you are only giving your opinion!!!!
You are not responding to the Scriptures given by me and others that oppose your stance.
You know very well that I DO NOT have a denomination stance at all and I have personally given you my history supporting that fact.

You are only giving us what YOU want and you are ignoring what has been given from the Word of God to support what actually is.

If that is all we are going to do please just let me know because I do not want to continue the back and fort of Scriptures being answered by an opinion.

No, I am speaking what God's word teaches. What you think scripture says is only what you want it to say.

 

[Mykuhl]

Very well articulated eric.



MY dear sister.......you are only giving your opinion!!!!
You are not responding to the Scriptures given by me and others that oppose your stance.
You know very well that I DO NOT have a denomination stance at all and I have personally given you my history supporting that fact.

You are only giving us what YOU want and you are ignoring what has been given from the Word of God to support what actually is.

If that is all we are going to do please just let me know because I do not want to continue the back and fort of Scriptures being answered by an opinion.

One thing I feel I need to say about all of this "opinion" talk is this: not all of what people say in here is opinion, some of it is fact and truth. Someone not seeing or understanding a truth does not make it any less true. Now, this is true for all truth thought of as opinion. If there a two opposing opinions on a black and white subject then one of them HAS to be truth and the other error. Truth is not relative.

 

[eric m williams]

One thing I feel I need to say about all of this "opinion" talk is this: not all of what people say in here is opinion, some of it is fact and truth. Someone not seeing or understanding a truth does not make it any less true. Now, this is true for all truth thought of as opinion. If there a two opposing opinions on a black and white subject then one of them HAS to be truth and the other error. Truth is not relative.

Lol...
If I'm reading that right it can be boiled down to "The truth is true no matter what you believe.".
That said; sometimes what seems to be a black and white and either or issue is not. It simply seems that way because our understanding is limited.

 

[Euphemia]

I'd like to ask the cessationalists here to explain what their favourite scripture they base their belief on means when it says:

1. "For now we see in a mirror, dimly but then face to face..."

and

2. " ...but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Mykuhl]

Lol...
If I'm reading that right it can be boiled down to "The truth is true no matter what you believe.".
That said; sometimes what seems to be a black and white and either or issue is not. It simply seems that way because our understanding is limited.

In a nutshell yes, that is what I was saying. I felt I needed to elaborate a little more than that though.

You are right, some issues that appear to black and white aren't. In this particular case though it is.

 

[aha]

Ohh, that is new to me (there's always new to learn in a bible study), interesting POV, take on the “perfect”….

“perfect” in verse 10, supersede “part” in verse 9…

If we relate “perfect” to Jesus, to the Church, or to the Bible… then I cannot imagine a “part” that the Perfect supersedes… a part Jesus: yes, can be, the Prophets, a part Church Age: hmmm…. a part Bible,hmm, , oral tradition was made to written?

as i see it: "Perfect" is simply not part-ial, that is: it is complete…

Verse 11 : compares knowledge of child to man as "part" will be replaced by "perfect"…

Verse 12: that is: what we know is part…. ... Q: when it will be complete? A: When we know all things, as I understand it...

thus, "perfect" in verse 10 is a state of being not part....

1COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1COR 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1COR 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1COR 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1COR 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1COR 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[Major]

What I am not doing is relying on what others have stated that the bible says and going into it myself.
I have already addressed that they had scripture on hand and that the apostle Paul obviously held it in high regard.
Where in scripture does it state what you are saying without adding to it (since Paul does not specificaly state what that perfect thing is)?

...and your thoughts on Paul's stament that the seal of His apostleship was the assembly/church he was speaking to?

No it doesn't. The passage you have referred to states "the perfect thing. You have made an assumption that it is referring to itself. To date I have yet to see any biblical support for such a belief that can function without an assumption of what is not stated.

That is stated plainly in scripture.
What is not stated plainly or by direct suggestion is your assumption that Paul was talking about the bible.

I suggest looking up the word perfect and then doing some research on the number of corrections the bible has had throughout its history (including the KJV).
I dare to say that the only things which can be perfect are God Himself and anything directly created by Him.

My experience telle ms that most will gloss over what I've said here and elsewhere when they get the idea that I am questioning the bible. The fact that I have only questioned assumptions about what it says or how the bible is presented will be ignored.

Your question was........"Where in scripture does it state what you are saying without adding to it".
In reality my friend, isn't exergesis the basis for all Scripture understanding? Isn't that why Paul told Timothy to "Rightly divide the word of truth".

Anyway in 1 Cor. 12:1......
"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant".

It is apparent from the Corinthian Epistle that there was much ignorance and improper exercise regarding these gifts, particularly the gifts of tongues and prophecy. Moreover, it is evident that they were fascinated with the gift of tongues to the neglect of the gift of prophecy (I Cor. 14: 1.).

Hence, one would speak in a is that the "in part" pertained to the then system of truth being dependant on these various gifts and each one who possessed a gift. At best, the system was incomplete (not perfect) and only temporary, looking to something else hence...."that which is perfect".

The expression "that which is perfect" is the Greek to teleion which I have posted now several times. Teleion is in the neuter gender and Marshall in Nestle’s Interlinear Greek-English New Testament renders it, "the perfect thing."

The Greek teleion simply describes action that is essentially progressive. The action was begun at the point of inception, continues in the proper course, and then it arrives at its destination. This latter state is the idea of teleion. Teleion, then, is the arrived at state, the state to which all anterior action looked, the goal to which all previous forward effort and action was directed. Hence, teleion is complete or the completed as opposed to "in part" or fragmentary.

Those comments come under the heading of "Implied Truth" which is found in all areas od learning. The doctrine of the Trinity and the Rapture come under that same heading as I suspect you already know.

Then you asked..............
"and your thoughts on Paul's stament that the seal of His apostleship was the assembly/church he was speaking."

My understanding is that he had SEEN the risen Christ. By that sense of understanding (1st requirement-Implied Truth) then he would be an apostle, appointed by the Lord Jesus on the Damascus road (2nd requirement...personal commission).

His greeting then to the church he was in was an official announcement of his standing and position.

Then you commented..............The passage you have referred to states "the perfect thing. You have made an assumption that it is referring to itself. To date I have yet to see any biblical support for such a belief that can function without an assumption of what is not stated.

I must disagree with you and my response is included in the answer given above. You certainly do not have to agree with me but it is my understanding given all the parameters of the Scriptures.

Then you stated............"What is not stated plainly or by direct suggestion is your assumption that Paul was talking about the bible."

Agreed. It is NOT plainly stated. Neither is the Rapture. IN fact my dear brother, the existence of God is never explained is it.
In Genesis 1:1 ...."n the beginning GOD".

That is an ASSUMPTION by Moses that every one knew what he knew and he saw no reason to explain it and God did not tell him to do otherwise. It is up to everyone of us to STUDY the Word of God so as to find the truth found there in.
Somethings are IMPLIED by one Bible author and then expounded by another and so and so on.

Then you said...................
I suggest looking up the word perfect and then doing some research on the number of corrections the bible has had throughout its history (including the KJV).
I dare to say that the only things which can be perfect are God Himself and anything directly created by Him.

I have posted several times including this very thread on the Greek grammer of the phrase "Perfect". Now I encourage YOU to do the work and instead of surging the web to find a site that you agree with, do the real work of Bible study and not what someone else says.

Do you realize what you say?

"I dare to say that the only things which can be perfect are God Himself and anything directly created by Him."

How then do you explain Adam and Eve? Did they not SIN !!! Were they perfect? YES but did they stay that way????

That is why I say the only two things that can be considered perfect/complete/mature is the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS WORD.

Now once again I ask you to consider the grammatical Greek language in which Paul wrote the phrase "PERECT ONE".
We may not like it, we may reject it and we may not understand why he did it but one done is done and we can not change it because we disagree with it or do not like it. At least I can't.

The expression "that which is perfect" is the Greek to teleion which I have posted now several times. Teleion is in the neuter gender and Marshall in Nestle’s Interlinear Greek-English New Testament renders it, "the perfect thing."

The Greek teleion simply describes action that is essentially progressive. The action was begun at the point of inception, continues in the proper course, and then it arrives at its destination. This latter state is the idea of teleion. Teleion, then, is the arrived at state, the state to which all anterior action looked, the goal to which all previous forward effort and action was directed. Hence, teleion is complete or the completed as opposed to "in part" or fragmentary.

IMO, and everyone is free and encouraged to disagree but that explanation tells me that the "perfect THING" is the Bible the Word of God.

 

[eric m williams]

...You are right, some issues that appear to black and white aren't. In this particular case though it is.

Are you referring to the tongues as evidence issue or the that which is perfect issue?