An honest question to cessationists

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Ok, I will admit that one could come to the conclusion you are making with the text as it stands. But I just don't seem right to me.

This is why i wont just read one translation. I just read Daniel 3:18 in at least 20 different translations and many I have not heard of and they all seem to say it differently from the other. This is what I am looking forward to getting.......The Chumash, ed Rabbi Nosson Scherman, Art Scroll Series, Stone Edition, Travel Size (Brooklyn Mesorah Publications,)

I have gotten info from this book in the past and it is awesome. Now I want one of my own.
Blessings Mykuhl
Jim

 

[Mykuhl]

This is why i wont just read one translation. I just read Daniel 3:18 in at least 20 different translations and many I have not heard of and they all seem to say it differently from the other. This is what I am looking forward to getting.......The Chumash, ed Rabbi Nosson Scherman, Art Scroll Series, Stone Edition, Travel Size (Brooklyn Mesorah Publications,)

I have gotten info from this book in the past and it is awesome. Now I want one of my own.
Blessings Mykuhl
Jim

Well, I just read the 20 different versions of that verse on BibleHub and they all say the same thing....,"but if not" or "even If He does not" or " if He does not".

I am not saying you are definitely wrong, and that if could not say what you are saying, just that it doesn't seem right.

 

[Major]

I never see chaos. the Lord has instilled authority to certain leaders in the churches to only allow so many people to prophesy, and not a boatload.



Nope. Paul never made such a command for the entire Body of Christ for all time.



It was a disciplinary letter to a church that was having an ongoing problem with disorderliness.



The underlined is absolutely false.



Those who know Paul and His heart, know enough to reject the view that you are sharing with us.

I really do not like to see anyone call someone else's belief "absolutely false". That speaks of an elitist attitude and none of us should accuse the other of such a thing.

What you are saying is YOUR opinion and YOU are free to think that. I do not agree with your opinion which does not in any way make my understanding "false". It makes it different than is yours but certainly not false.

I think if you will do some study of the well know Bible scholars available to all of us you will find that it is the overwhelming position that they have that what I am saying is Biblically correct. So it is then a fact that you are calling all of them "false".

Maybe, just maybe if you would just look beyond the denomination teachings of the Penacostal belief you would see the difference.

 

[Euphemia]

Some things are absolutely false, which means there is no truth in them, despite what biblical scholars think. Holy Spirit is the one who elucidates all truth. Assigning an attitude in that such as "elitist", is not appropriate.

As for denominational teachings, such as Pentecostal---I claim none of that.

 

[Major]

Some things are absolutely false, which means there is no truth in them, despite what biblical scholars think. Holy Spirit is the one who elucidates all truth. Assigning an attitude in that such as "elitist", is not appropriate.

As for denominational teachings, such as Pentecostal---I claim none of that.

Yes it is! It is just as appropriate as the statement......."The underlined is absolutely false."
The implication is that YOU are the one who knows the truth and that is incorrect. You just like the rest of us have an opinion which you are absolutely frees to have and that is also just as true when applied to me and others.

Yes you have. You have claimed the Word of Faith doctrine many times which is a Penecostal offshoot. There is no need to deny such a thing.

 

[Euphemia]

Yes it is! It is just as appropriate as the statement......."The underlined is absolutely false."
The implication is that YOU are the one who knows the truth and that is incorrect. You just like the rest of us have an opinion which you are absolutely frees to have and that is also just as true when applied to me and others.

Yes you have. You have claimed the Word of Faith doctrine many times which is a Penecostal offshoot. There is no need to deny such a thing.

Yes what is what? You are taking on board some sort of implication that I am not giving.

You make the claim about Word of Faith, which you have an allergic reaction to. I don't make such a claim.

 

[Major]

Some things are absolutely false, which means there is no truth in them, despite what biblical scholars think. Holy Spirit is the one who elucidates all truth. Assigning an attitude in that such as "elitist", is not appropriate.

As for denominational teachings, such as Pentecostal---I claim none of that.

Actually, it's more strange when people think they believe more than others. Who is the unbeliever when you are using it in private? Silk <-------curious.

Well said!

 

[Mykuhl]

Yes it is! It is just as appropriate as the statement......."The underlined is absolutely false."
The implication is that YOU are the one who knows the truth and that is incorrect. You just like the rest of us have an opinion which you are absolutely frees to have and that is also just as true when applied to me and others.

Yes you have. You have claimed the Word of Faith doctrine many times which is a Penecostal offshoot. There is no need to deny such a thing.

Major,

Do you acknowledge that there is absolute truth? If so, then something can be absolutely false. If something is true then the opposite by definition is false. When it comes to truth, someone HAS to be wrong, it isn't all opinion.

 

[Major]

Yes what is what? You are taking on board some sort of implication that I am not giving.

You make the claim about Word of Faith, which you have an allergic reaction to. I don't make such a claim.

I am not going to take my time to go back and find and record and post the claims you have posted about the Word of Faith over the past several months. Any one reading on this site knows exactly what you have posted and what I have posted in response.

I am not allergic I just do not find their teachings to be Biblical and I disagree with those teachings..

 

[Major]

Major,

Do you acknowledge that there is absolute truth? If so, then something can be absolutely false. If something is true then the opposite by definition is false. When it comes to truth, someone HAS to be wrong, it isn't all opinion.

Yes and NO.

When something is not laid out in understandable clear words, as are many things in Scripture it is then up to us to grasp the meaning......is that not true???? That then becomes an opinion because there is NO absolute truth in some things.

Tell me.....where can we go in the Scriptures to find the absolute Word ... Rapture.
How about the Trinity????

Tell me this, where do we go to find the absolute truth on Hell. Is it in Luke 16 or is Luke 16 a parable which can be dismissed.

Hypothetical : To that comment made toward me then it is possible that my dear sister is wrong in her response because she does not agree with me on a subject where the clear, absolute truth is in question?.

Is She then giving FALSE teaching????

That would be Correct according to your thinking would it not???

But as I have told you before, the moderators frown upon such claims. I do not want to be the one who causes this thread to be closed because I called someone else saying....."You are giving false information".

I simply say that we are in disagreement and our opinion differ. Isn't that a more acceptable way of saying the same thing?

 

[Euphemia]

I am not going to take my time to go back and find and record and post the claims you have posted about the Word of Faith over the past several months. Any one reading on this site knows exactly what you have posted and what I have posted in response.

I am not allergic I just do not find their teachings to be Biblical and I disagree with those teachings..

Several months? I have only been posting since I've been back since about March 1---so, three months. I've never once mentioned "Word of Faith".

 

[Abdicate]

1Co_14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

That tongues is foreign language like Spanish, French, German, like on the day of Pentecost. There is a heavenly language too, that the U.S. government actually confirmed it was a bonafide language. The first speaker began by a faithful woman who believed the word of God and asked her pastor, Charles Parham who didn't know if it was possible, to pray for her to get this baptism of the Holy Spirit. She was the first in the modern times to receive tongues. Her name Agnes Ozman, and she did receive because of FAITH. Here's the story of how the pentecostal movement began:

 

[Major]

Several months? I have only been posting since I've been back since about March 1---so, three months. I've never once mentioned "Word of Faith".

Really??????

Without a lot of trouble I see that you actually began to post in April of 2014. So that is about a year so several seems to be about right.

As for "I've never once mentioned "Word of Faith"........Under thread "who is the Holy Spirit, comment #33 on June 8, 2014.

When confronted that your comments mirror the Word of Faith doctrine, you said to me.......
"Perhaps you need to bone up on what the real Word of Faith means".

 

[Silk]

I'm familiar @Abdicate with the pentecostal history. I did not watch the video but every linguist I have ever read said that modern day glossalalia is NOT a language...period. And there are various modern day religions that are not Christian in any way shape or form that have used tongues in their rituals for far longer (voodoo comes to mind). As Major posted - it was used prior to Christ having died. The singular difference between Christian tongues being that at Pentecost - they spoke in their normal language and people heard it in their native tongue. I have bothered to look in-depth at tongues. I recommend Goodman's book regarding studies of tongues used both by Christian and non-christian groups as compared to tapes from demon possessed people. The Christian and non-christian groups are defined as not a language. They have one thing in common with demon possessed - they all have the same audio frequency rate. If I spoke in tongues I would be concerned. The book further indicates that all are identified with the same part of the brain's pleasure/pain center. It was this same pentecostal movement that said the rapture was coming in the 1800's and people left jobs, lands, families to wait in open fields for an event that didn't happen, wasn't it?. The pentecostal belief requires that a person speak in tongues. Ever talked to an ex member? People have repeatedly faked tongues to remain a member.

 

[Silk]

PS: You will note that Ozman spoke in a KNOWN language....Chinese.

 

[Euphemia]

Really??????

Without a lot of trouble I see that you actually began to post in April of 2014. So that is about a year so several seems to be about right.

As for "I've never once mentioned "Word of Faith"........Under thread "who is the Holy Spirit, comment #33 on June 8, 2014.

When confronted that your comments mirror the Word of Faith doctrine, you said to me.......
"Perhaps you need to bone up on what the real Word of Faith means".

I was not here for seven months or so.

I am not a proponent of the misinterpreted Word of Faith group. Yes, you really need to know what believing the word of faith is about. Everyone who walks with Jesus Christ should be full of faith and the word.

 

[Euphemia]

I'm familiar @Abdicate with the pentecostal history. I did not watch the video but every linguist I have ever read said that modern day glossalalia is NOT a language...period. And there are various modern day religions that are not Christian in any way shape or form that have used tongues in their rituals for far longer (voodoo comes to mind). As Major posted - it was used prior to Christ having died. The singular difference between Christian tongues being that at Pentecost - they spoke in their normal language and people heard it in their native tongue. I have bothered to look in-depth at tongues. I recommend Goodman's book regarding studies of tongues used both by Christian and non-christian groups as compared to tapes from demon possessed people. The Christian and non-christian groups are defined as not a language. They have one thing in common with demon possessed - they all have the same audio frequency rate. If I spoke in tongues I would be concerned. The book further indicates that all are identified with the same part of the brain's pleasure/pain center. It was this same pentecostal movement that said the rapture was coming in the 1800's and people left jobs, lands, families to wait in open fields for an event that didn't happen, wasn't it?. The pentecostal belief requires that a person speak in tongues. Ever talked to an ex member? People have repeatedly faked tongues to remain a member.

We do not need a linguist's POV. We speak whatever language the Holy Spirit utters. It is a language, even if we cannot identify it....yet. The language I speak is a definite language, with a rich and growing vocabulary and syntax.

Allowing your opinion to be formed by people and writers who deny tongues, rather than the word of God, and by Spirit-filled people is not a good thing.

 

[Silk]

We do not need a linguist's POV. We speak whatever language the Holy Spirit utters. It is a language, even if we cannot identify it....yet. The language I speak is a definite language, with a rich and growing vocabulary and syntax.

Allowing your opinion to be formed by people and writers who deny tongues, rather than the word of God, and by Spirit-filled people is not a good thing.

Do you read what you type? I go by scripture - if what your interpetation of scripture contradicts - it's time to re-evaluate your interpetation. I read everything now with the Holy Spirit. Someone who posted here wanted to teach me how to speak tongues. I was tempted to try. The Holy Spirit said no. (and crashed my computer ). Ozman spoke in chinese....she also wrote in chinese. That is called automatic writing these days. And is considered a portal to darkness. Just saying. Several scriptures have been glossed over but they contradict your interpetation. Maybe it's one of those twofer things Abdicate talks about. Tongues are right for you but not for me. But I do know that Word of Faith/Prosperity/Charismatic's fruit has been heresy and false. It has twisted the good Lord's message and I investigated because I cared.

 

[Euphemia]

Do you read what you type? I go by scripture - if what your interpetation of scripture contradicts - it's time to re-evaluate your interpetation. I read everything now with the Holy Spirit. Someone who posted here wanted to teach me how to speak tongues. I was tempted to try. The Holy Spirit said no. (and crashed my computer ). Ozman spoke in chinese....she also wrote in chinese. That is called automatic writing theses days. And is considered a portal to darkness. Just saying. Several scriptures have been glossed over but they contradict your interpetation. Maybe it's one of those twofer things Abdicate talks about. Tongues are right for you but not for me. But I do know that Word of Faith/Prosperity/Charismatic's fruit has been heresy and false. It has twisted the good Lord's message and I investigated because I cared.

It is dangerous to call that which one doesn't understand evil. God will not stay in the box one tries to put Him in.

Just sayin'.

 

[Silk]

It is dangerous to call that which one doesn't understand evil. God will not stay in the box one tries to put Him in.

Just sayin'.

It is equally dangerous to put forth teachings contradictory to scripture. I'm not the one putting God in the box. I don't need to talk to God in a language I don't understand. He told me to go out and learn and understand as I had quite a bit to catch up on. And as always, He was right.