An honest question to cessationists

[CCW95A]

No sir I am not.

My use of Gen. 3:16 was to show that Eve tried to take the leadership role and made a decision to disobey God without consulting her husband. She allowed herself to be deceived and made a colossal blunder, so God required that she would always be subject to her husband (Gen. 3:16). Her punishment reminds her that she left her role of subjection. Man was punished just as severely, but in a different way.

I am responding correctly to your comments which was that there is a difference between WIVES and WOMEN in your opinion and men only have authority over their WIVES within the church. That is your claim.

I disagree with that and have given you the Scriptures and the actual Greek wording as to why that is not the case. IT is your choice to believe or reject.

Nothing I have stated is out of context. It seems to me that YOU are having trouble accepting it but it is none the less right out of the Bible my brother but it is not what you have been taught. If you disagree with me, no problem for me because I still love you and we will be in disagreement.

Those told not to speak in the assemblies, then, are women in general--the common use of the term gune, and not some limited group of women such as only women speaking with a spiritual gift or only wives.

Major, you probably can recall we have had this same discussion before, and the end results were the same.
I do not see any where in scripture where "women" are not allowed to speak in the Church except for the wife being in subjection to her husband.
This is a major blunder on the most Churches today in restricting women from speaking in the Church. Of all the Church's I have ever visited, most of the congregation are "women". What this tells us is that the Church has been handicapped in proclaiming the Gospel because of some man made doctrine that has brought women into bondage instead of setting them free to serve the Lord has he has called them. This kind of thinking will go away as we look to the scripture and see what it really says.

 

[Euphemia]

You can not take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it....

1Ti 2:12.. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
1Ti 2:13.. For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
1Ti 2:14.. and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15.. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Adam as the head of his family was responsible for Eve's actions. Man is ONLY over his wife in marriage, but not in the Church!!!

1Co 11:3.. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.(KJV)

Is every man the head of every women? Absolutely not!!!!

1Co 11:3.. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. (ESV)

The "husband" is the only place the man is over his wife!!

Eph 5:21.. submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Eph 5:22.. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23.. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
Eph 5:24.. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.



The Greek word used for "man" and for "husband"
in the New Testament is the same word, "aner". The Greek
of the New Testament had no separate word for "husband."
It had no word for "wife." The Greek
word for "woman," gyne, has been translated both as
"woman" and as "wife."
It must be determined by the setting which of
these should be given to the words in the
English passage. You must tell from the context whether it's talking about women in general, or strictly
about wives. Sometimes Paul is talking about women in
general — but at other times he's strictly talking about
wives. And such passages should be interpreted as relating
to the role of a wife.

Exactly!

 

[Euphemia]

Major, you probably can recall we have had this same discussion before, and the end results were the same.
I do not see any where in scripture where "women" are not allowed to speak in the Church except for the wife being in subjection to her husband.
This is a major blunder on the most Churches today in restricting women from speaking in the Church. Of all the Church's I have ever visited, most of the congregation are "women". What this tells us is that the Church has been handicapped in proclaiming the Gospel because of some man made doctrine that has brought women into bondage instead of setting them free to serve the Lord has he has called them. This kind of thinking will go away as we look to the scripture and see what it really says.

Amen, brother! The enemy has been successful at halving the workforce of the Body of Christ by the false interpretation of Paul's admonishment to the Church.

 

[Silk]

The Opening Post (OP) asks:
I just want to know if cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal revelation about scripture to believers today? Do you guys believe that the Spirit gives you understanding and explains the scriptures to you so that you understand them correctly?
I am asking in here because I can't seem to find the answer online. I am not looking to turn this into a debate about the topic.
I can only wonder why you had such trouble. This is a never ending argument with always 2 sides with pretty much the same posts. The "cessationist" does NOT believe that God doesn't continue to heal until this very day. The "cessationist" does not believe that God doesn't still tell us things to do with future events (ie-get your brakes fixed or else you will have an accident). You are to read scripture with the Holy Spirit leading you because all you need to know is prophesized there. Every believer is indwelt by the same Holy Spirit. Some do not get more and some less. The altar call is all you need. No one is arguing that teaching/preaching/discernment all come from the Holy Spirit and continues. Read Romans Chapter 8 - the Holy Spirit is to lead you to Christ. Watch the 19 hour strange fire conference given by John MacArthur and Grace Church. The Charismatic movement has distorted basic doctrine and multiple heresies have resulted. You are welcome to believe what you like but I looked at both sides and I agree (mostly) with Major. But @Major - shame on you for the women twist. You know very well that Paul was correcting the Corinth church because it was women that were abusing tongues as proof of their own holiness and trying to outdo each other. And that's the problem with these gifts of the Spirit today. Major has already explained that tongues in multiple scripture was about known man languages but unknown to the speaker. What this argument comes down to is those professing gifts APPEAR to be putting themselves above other Christians and that is just wrong. It's level at the foot of the cross. This is the theology of prosperity and word of faith preachers and what results is largely not any reflection of God's glory. Like Major, I have no problems with those who think otherwise but I do not see their point reflected in scripture as a whole. I was sent to understand the Word of God - the truth. I have no wish to speak in tongues, unless it is the kind where what I am speaking both I and the hearer understands. The Holy Spirit and God don't need me as a conduit to talk to each other in a language I don't understand. When God spoke to me He used English. Other than signing the alphabet and pig latin - it's the only language I know.

 

[Euphemia]

Mark 16:17-18
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

John 16:15
Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

 

[Major]

The Opening Post (OP) asks:
I just want to know if cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal revelation about scripture to believers today? Do you guys believe that the Spirit gives you understanding and explains the scriptures to you so that you understand them correctly?
I am asking in here because I can't seem to find the answer online. I am not looking to turn this into a debate about the topic.
I can only wonder why you had such trouble. This is a never ending argument with always 2 sides with pretty much the same posts. The "cessationist" does NOT believe that God doesn't continue to heal until this very day. The "cessationist" does not believe that God doesn't still tell us things to do with future events (ie-get your brakes fixed or else you will have an accident). You are to read scripture with the Holy Spirit leading you because all you need to know is prophesized there. Every believer is indwelt by the same Holy Spirit. Some do not get more and some less. The altar call is all you need. No one is arguing that teaching/preaching/discernment all come from the Holy Spirit and continues. Read Romans Chapter 8 - the Holy Spirit is to lead you to Christ. Watch the 19 hour strange fire conference given by John MacArthur and Grace Church. The Charismatic movement has distorted basic doctrine and multiple heresies have resulted. You are welcome to believe what you like but I looked at both sides and I agree (mostly) with Major. But @Major - shame on you for the women twist. You know very well that Paul was correcting the Corinth church because it was women that were abusing tongues as proof of their own holiness and trying to outdo each other. And that's the problem with these gifts of the Spirit today. Major has already explained that tongues in multiple scripture was about known man languages but unknown to the speaker. What this argument comes down to is those professing gifts APPEAR to be putting themselves above other Christians and that is just wrong. It's level at the foot of the cross. This is the theology of prosperity and word of faith preachers and what results is largely not any reflection of God's glory. Like Major, I have no problems with those who think otherwise but I do not see their point reflected in scripture as a whole. I was sent to understand the Word of God - the truth. I have no wish to speak in tongues, unless it is the kind where what I am speaking both I and the hearer understands. The Holy Spirit and God don't need me as a conduit to talk to each other in a language I don't understand. When God spoke to me He used English. Other than signing the alphabet and pig latin - it's the only language I know.

Silk. Are you sure you were speaking to me????
I am not sure WHY I should be ashamed for posting the words of Paul concerning women. I have said many times that I DID NOT WRITE THOSE SCRIPTURES......Paul DID.

And Yes, I did in fact state that Paul was correcting the Corinth church because it was women that were abusing tongues as proof of their own holiness and trying to outdo each other. That is almost my exact words.

 

[Major]

Major, you probably can recall we have had this same discussion before, and the end results were the same.
I do not see any where in scripture where "women" are not allowed to speak in the Church except for the wife being in subjection to her husband.
This is a major blunder on the most Churches today in restricting women from speaking in the Church. Of all the Church's I have ever visited, most of the congregation are "women". What this tells us is that the Church has been handicapped in proclaiming the Gospel because of some man made doctrine that has brought women into bondage instead of setting them free to serve the Lord has he has called them. This kind of thinking will go away as we look to the scripture and see what it really says.

It is NOT about women speaking in churches today IMO as I have stated. My brother, it is the speaking in TONGUES to which Paul said, NOT ME...PAUL SAID that was to come to and end.

How can you miss me saying that as I have said it now a dozen times. Why would you say that women speaking in church is not permitted????? IF that is not the case, then would you please tell us what Paul meant when he said.........

"And As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."

I have proven to your Biblically that the verse does not men ONLY WIVES but all women. But even if it is just wives the meaning should be the same since ALL wives are women. Women, keep silent in church.

Then I showed Biblically where Paul told women/wives to speak and be active in church as was the case with Phoebe.

So please explain the words of Paul for us.

I have posted Scripture after Scripture and that is all I can do. If you do not accept them then there is nothing more I can do.

 

[Silk]

Silk. Are you sure you were speaking to me????
I am not sure WHY I should be ashamed for posting the words of Paul concerning women. I have said many times that I DID NOT WRITE THOSE SCRIPTURES......Paul DID.

And Yes, I did in fact state that Paul was correcting the Corinth church because it was women that were abusing tongues as proof of their own holiness and trying to outdo each other. That is almost my exact words.

Major - I was going by the last page of posts where it appeared you were saying women were not to speak in church - I don't remember where you posted the last part but I remembered you posting it clearly and had no problem with that and of course I agree. The last posts seemed pointed the other way - perhaps I misread?

 

[Silk]

OK - I get it. Apologies, @Major....you were trying to make that point and it got twisted. Apologies.

 

[Euphemia]

Women AND men were not using the gift of tongues wisely, but Paul was admonishing women for another reason: for talking out of turn during teaching in the meeting.

1 Corinthians 14:34a
Women should be silent during the church meetings.

 

[CCW95A]

"And As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."

Brother Major, show me in the "law" where women are not aloud to speak in tongues. There is none. It is not found in any of the ten commandments, so it would have to be within the first five books of the Bible. The only place it mentions anything about man ruling over women is when God said to Eve.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

[Major]

Brother Major, show me in the "law" where women are not aloud to speak in tongues. There is none. It is not found in any of the ten commandments, so it would have to be within the first five books of the Bible. The only place it mentions anything about man ruling over women is when God said to Eve.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again, and probably for the 10th time, I did not write the letter to the Corinthians!!!! I do not know!!!

However, IMHO it would apply to the general understanding of the Old Test.

The very phrase which Paul uses is found in a number of proximate Jewish writings, and its meaning is not in doubt. It is a clear reference to a principle drawn from the Biblical text and not a direct quote, either to the Pentateuch or some other part of the Old Testament.

Several commentators note that this appeal to ‘the Law’ is a standard form of argument in Paul’s writings.

Of twelve standard modern Bible commentaries, almost all of them understand this is as a reference to the Law of Moses or a general principle from Genesis or the Old Testament; of these commentaries only one egalitarian commentary disagrees.
(https://christianstudies.wordpress.com/2011/05/07/what-is-the-law-in-1-corinthians-1434/).

To be under obedience - To be subject to their husbands; to acknowledge the superior authority of the man as seen in
1 Corinthians 11:3.

"As also saith the law" = Genesis 3:16......
"And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

 

[Euphemia]

Major we all know Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, but we in the world of 2015 need to understand the man, Paul and why he was exhorting those people. Women were teaching and prophesying, but some women were acting badly, speaking out in the meetings and causing disruption. Paul needed to address the problem to preserve order. We need to understand that and prevent such disorder from occurring in the local churches.

 

[Major]

Major we all know Paul wrote to the church in Corinth, but we in the world of 2015 need to understand the man, Paul and why he was exhorting those people. Women were teaching and prophesying, but some women were acting badly, speaking out in the meetings and causing disruption. Paul needed to address the problem to preserve order. We need to understand that and prevent such disorder from occurring in the local churches.

I am on your side my sister and I agree with you. As I have said before, every single church that I have been in that practices tongues and prophesying, they all do it just as did the Corinthian church and the result is chaos.

It is my opinion which is certainly not the end of the story............that what Paul said, (NOT ME--PAUL) was that women were NOT to prophesy or speak in tongues in church. IMO that is ALL he meant by his directions in 1 Corth. 14.

It can not be rejected that the context of chapter 14 is all about the proper use of tongues and prophesying.

It does not appear to me that all speaking is not prohibited by Paul. As I have posted already that there are many situations where Paul spoke of women speaking in church and actually encouraged it. Women might speak their experiences to the church, or give an account of the work of God upon their souls; pray; they might speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; or speak as an evidence in any case at a church meeting; but IMO Paul is saying that women can not speak in tongues in the church.

At least that is what he wrote and that is up to others to accept or reject.

 

[Silk]

Having researched the demonic/paranormal/occult for 40+ years, I would note that one of the standard signs of possession is when the speaker talks in a known language which is unknown to the speaker. As defined by scripture. At the Pentecost, the apostles/disciples knew what they were saying but the hearer heard the words in his native language. This makes sense: if you want to get a message across to unbelievers. The demons use it to impress and intimidate. Interesting insights from the book The Exorcism of Annaliese Michel by Felicitas D. Goodman (an anthropologist and linguist) pages 210-222 indicate a physical (brain) and chemical connection. Someone posted that unbelievers couldn't duplicate the tongues. But there are examples all over the net of believers who duplicate tongues easily and often do so to blend in with denominational requirements of speaking in tongues. Google is your friend. It is often a faith breaker (tongues). The majority of my experience in hearing people claim they pray in tongues is to say my prayers are more powerful than yours (someone actually posted) and my opinion is superior to yours because I speak in tongues. Whether that is your intention - THAT is what comes across. And that is what comes across with the correction needed in Corinth and what the problem was.
I like whistles and bells as well as anyone. But I don't need them to sustain or support my faith.

 

[Euphemia]

I am on your side my sister and I agree with you. As I have said before, every single church that I have been in that practices tongues and prophesying, they all do it just as did the Corinthian church and the result is chaos.

I never see chaos. the Lord has instilled authority to certain leaders in the churches to only allow so many people to prophesy, and not a boatload.

It is my opinion which is certainly not the end of the story............that what Paul said, (NOT ME--PAUL) was that women were NOT to prophesy or speak in tongues in church. IMO that is ALL he meant by his directions in 1 Corth. 14.

Nope. Paul never made such a command for the entire Body of Christ for all time.

It can not be rejected that the context of chapter 14 is all about the proper use of tongues and prophesying.

It was a disciplinary letter to a church that was having an ongoing problem with disorderliness.

It does not appear to me that all speaking is not prohibited by Paul. As I have posted already that there are many situations where Paul spoke of women speaking in church and actually encouraged it. Women might speak their experiences to the church, or give an account of the work of God upon their souls; pray; they might speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; or speak as an evidence in any case at a church meeting; but IMO Paul is saying that women can not speak in tongues in the church.

The underlined is absolutely false.

At least that is what he wrote and that is up to others to accept or reject.

Those who know Paul and His heart, know enough to reject the view that you are sharing with us.

 

[Abdicate]

Tongues are not to be spoken unless there is an interpreter. Tongues is for the believer alone, not in public. But I don't want to get into it. Just my

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Tongues are not to be spoken unless there is an interpreter. Tongues is for the believer alone, not in public. But I don't want to get into it. Just my

I agree totally and unto the believer it is a valuable item to have in Christ
Theres my 2 cents and I raise ya here

 

[Euphemia]

I speak in tongues almost every day, in prayer to my Father. God doesn't provide interpreters for that, and He has reasons for that. I rest in Him and enjoy that intimacy going on while Holy Spirit is speaking mysteries over me. God is pleased to edify His children in it.

 

[Silk]

I find it of inestimable and edifying value to pray and read with the Holy Spirit and I don't need tongues to do it. Go figure. Thank you God that there is no typing in tongues.
My 2 cents.