Answering Atheism

[Waggles]

But when we have innocent children who die everyday and other horrible things, would a loving God let them just happen when he COULD intervene? If He doesn't, is that not loving?

1. Worldy mainstream church traditions are responsible for massive crimes against their parishioners - paedophile exposes concerning priests, monks, private schools, orphanages and other terrible stories of abuse and cruelty do much to bring the spiritual down to grubby worldly sinfulness. "Christians" are no better than those who do not believe and have not committed such sins. Atheists are given ammunition for their guns.
It becomes difficult to explain the calling of God to repentance and doing good when the news media broadcast scandal after scandal.
Here is perhaps the greatest obstacle to those resisting Christ to have some justification for their reluctance to embrace Church based christianity.

Many of us understand the difference in a true commitment to the Christian calling and to turn away from a previous sinful life, and to embrace righteousness - but how do you promote this against a backdrop of corrupt mainstream church practices over the decades. The problem is so severe here in Australia, that all churches are currently giving evidence to what we call a 'Royal Commission' which has powers of interrogation under oath and subpoenaed to give evidence. The findings have been horrific and shameful by all churches and institutions to date.
Revelation 18:4-5
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Here is the the difference. Our own personal testimonies to the truth of experiencing Jesus and the Holy Spirit need to be real and tangible.
You are unlikely to make a crack in defensive armour through philosophy and generalities on good and evil, or some people said they saw something while they were dead for a while.
Personal testimony as to how and why one was converted. What one has experienced. Answered prayer. Miracles and healings. That God is love in a hard and cruel world. He brings mercy and grace and forgiveness where humans hold onto their grudges and paybacks, and revenge.
We will always be challenged on issues like Northern Ireland and the generational hatred there. Hindu and Muslim violence. The Crusades and their slaughters.
Worldly religion that partakes of worldly empires [didn't Satan offer these to Jesus] versus true spirituality, true belief, a true Christian experience.
We need to personalise the truth of Jesus and his saving grace with the evidence of experiencing this demonstrably.
To convince an atheist will take more than a good debate over where did the universe come from.

 

[Waggles]

 

[LysanderShapiro]

1. Worldy mainstream church traditions are responsible for massive crimes against their parishioners - paedophile exposes concerning priests, monks, private schools, orphanages and other terrible stories of abuse and cruelty do much to bring the spiritual down to grubby worldly sinfulness. "Christians" are no better than those who do not believe and have not committed such sins. Atheists are given ammunition for their guns.
It becomes difficult to explain the calling of God to repentance and doing good when the news media broadcast scandal after scandal.
Here is perhaps the greatest obstacle to those resisting Christ to have some justification for their reluctance to embrace Church based christianity.

Many of us understand the difference in a true commitment to the Christian calling and to turn away from a previous sinful life, and to embrace righteousness - but how do you promote this against a backdrop of corrupt mainstream church practices over the decades. The problem is so severe here in Australia, that all churches are currently giving evidence to what we call a 'Royal Commission' which has powers of interrogation under oath and subpoenaed to give evidence. The findings have been horrific and shameful by all churches and institutions to date.
Revelation 18:4-5
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Here is the the difference. Our own personal testimonies to the truth of experiencing Jesus and the Holy Spirit need to be real and tangible.
You are unlikely to make a crack in defensive armour through philosophy and generalities on good and evil, or some people said they saw something while they were dead for a while.
Personal testimony as to how and why one was converted. What one has experienced. Answered prayer. Miracles and healings. That God is love in a hard and cruel world. He brings mercy and grace and forgiveness where humans hold onto their grudges and paybacks, and revenge.
We will always be challenged on issues like Northern Ireland and the generational hatred there. Hindu and Muslim violence. The Crusades and their slaughters.
Worldly religion that partakes of worldly empires [didn't Satan offer these to Jesus] versus true spirituality, true belief, a true Christian experience.
We need to personalise the truth of Jesus and his saving grace with the evidence of experiencing this demonstrably.
To convince an atheist will take more than a good debate over where did the universe come from.

With all due respect, I don't know what to talk about first in what you said. You're right that our own personal experiences are important in our discussing God's existence, but there's a lot you just said that I would disagree with.

But also, no one is saying that discussing with an Atheist, with the goal to have them open up and eventually recognize the existence of God, will only taken moments. Like I said, it's unlikely there will be a eureka moment. However, a series of discussions is always excellent.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

For all those who are interested, here's an interview I found with the author. It's excellent and far from boring.

To get to the discussion of the book, scroll to 11:15 mark.

 

[Abdicate]

In fact, I think the strongest argument against God is that for a personal God to be real, he would have to be the height of perfection and goodness. But when we have innocent children who die everyday and other horrible things, would a loving God let them just happen when he COULD intervene? If He doesn't, is that not loving? And if not, would God not be all-loving? And if he wouldn't be, then perhaps a personal God doesn't exist -- at most, a non-personal God meaning deists are right, but theists are wrong.

I hear ya. This issue boils down to two things: #1 if we had the ability to know absolutly one half of all knowledge in the universe, surpassing any human (save Jesus) who ever lived in intelligence, we'd still be missing half the picture to make a full and just judgment. #2 Free will. If you’re not given the chance to sin, then you’re a robot and you cannot make a conscious choice to freely love the Lord God. If God were to intervene then if we sneeze *ZAP* you’re dead because you’re spreading germs. God is not Zeus so don’t judge Him as such. He left heaven, came to the earth, lived the life we are to live but don’t, died for us, raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and sent the same Spirit He used while living here, to us to follow His steps, so we can have choice. What more could He do other than make us robots, then why bother? Just my thoughts.

 

[Ph8th]

I like the way this guy presents his love and belief in Jesus

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I hear ya. This issue boils down to two things: #1 if we had the ability to know absolutly one half of all knowledge in the universe, surpassing any human (save Jesus) who ever lived in intelligence, we'd still be missing half the picture to make a full and just judgment. #2 Free will. If you’re not given the chance to sin, then you’re a robot and you cannot make a conscious choice to freely love the Lord God. If God were to intervene then if we sneeze *ZAP* you’re dead because you’re spreading germs. God is not Zeus so don’t judge Him as such. He left heaven, came to the earth, lived the life we are to live but don’t, died for us, raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and sent the same Spirit He used while living here, to us to follow His steps, so we can have choice. What more could He do other than make us robots, then why bother? Just my thoughts.

And I agree with you.
I think some Atheists (I use that word broadly here) seem to have some of that understood, but some of them have consciously chosen not to accept it or these cases for God haven't yet been presented to them with meatier substance.

 

[KingJ]

Is there a dumber discussion to be had then God's existence? NO, there is not. It is the dumbest discussion of all time.

As such we can be forgiven for getting upset with atheists. Someone calling themselves an atheist may as well be carrying a flag that says 'I am obstinate, ignorant, arrogant, not certain of anything and do not want to use my brain...at all...now lets have a highly intelligent and serious discussion'.

The bible calls them a fool for a reason Psalm 14:1. Isaac Newton hits the nail on the head ''He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.”

I have discussed a lot with atheists. Even this week I am going to get drilled by one. At first I would fight a lot. Judging myself harshly now I see that it was more from frustration at their willful ignorance. But as I have matured, I have grasped that there is no such thing as someone who does not believe in God. As others have clearly said they are just lost souls who need to see Jesus in us.

These days my discussion is shortened to 3 points each. 'I will listen to 3 points from you on the condition you listen to my 3. Then we are done. No more discussion'.

My 3 are:
1. You can be partially forgiven for not knowing whether God is Jesus, Allah, a three eyed robot or Dawkins genes in a primordial sludge. Partially, because Jesus did change the world...
2. Wouldn't you agree that whomever God is, He is great and that it is not just a little but rather immensely insulting to in the slightest suggest that God of the universe dances to the tune of an ant? The ant, comes to God on His terms.
3. According to Christianity, His terms are John 3:16, Psalm 51:17, Matt 16:24, Rom 12:9, 1 Cor 11:31, Rev 3:20. When we do this, God Himself reveals to us that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago and died for us is God 1 Cor 12:3.

Thanks for the suggestion LS. I have been looking for a good book to get my atheist family. I hope they read it.

I must share how the other day I went into this popular book store looking for a book on chemistry. I was really shocked to see how around 30% of the books in the science section were on atheism .

 

[/]

I must share how the other day I went into this popular book store looking for a book on chemistry. I was really shocked to see how around 30% of the books in the science section were on atheism .

Most bizarre isn't it? As if Christians read about science...pfft...who'd have thought it?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I may be grinding some gears here for saying this (I apologize), but I don't think it's a dumb discussion. I think I would have said it is not too long ago, but I think when I said that, I misspoke. I think discussing whether God exists or not is a very reasonable discussion.

I will say it is extremely misguided to conclude that perhaps God does not exist and, going beyond that, it is foolish to conclude certainty of God's non-existence. But I wouldn't say it's dumb because asking questions like WHY are we here, why is there suffering, how do we know there is an afterlife and if so, where will we go and for what reason...some of these questions can really be striking and so many answers can be given based on so many different reasons -- emotionally, philosophically, scientifically, etc. Each side of discussion may (or may not) be very invested in their belief and, if so, will most likely give a very sincere answer, even if it turns out to be objectively wrong.

By no means am I defending Atheism here (I do think Atheism, by definition, is a foolish concept), but I don't think the discussion itself is dumb. Often times, we discuss theism amongst ourselves and I often think it turns out to be pretty intelligent.

Or maybe I misread what you meant by that...which is very possible. If so, scratch everything I said

And yes, I would say this book is good for Atheists. It was written no strictly for Christians to be able to read for the benefit of Theistic apologetics -- it was also written because the author, who had a lot of Atheist friends, couldn't find a single book that he could share with them without having their intelligence insulted.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I must share how the other day I went into this popular book store looking for a book on chemistry. I was really shocked to see how around 30% of the books in the science section were on atheism .

Haha, I am with you on that one...everything I just said, that doesn't mean the discussion CAN'T be dumb. I think often times, it is dumbed down. A book on Atheism in the science section would be like putting Relativity by Einstein in the Theology section.

 

[KingJ]

I may be grinding some gears here for saying this (I apologize), but I don't think it's a dumb discussion. I think I would have said it is not too long ago, but I think when I said that, I misspoke. I think discussing whether God exists or not is a very reasonable discussion.

I will say it is extremely misguided to conclude that perhaps God does not exist and, going beyond that, it is foolish to conclude certainty of God's non-existence. But I wouldn't say it's dumb because asking questions like WHY are we here, why is there suffering, how do we know there is an afterlife and if so, where will we go and for what reason...some of these questions can really be striking and so many answers can be given based on so many different reasons -- emotionally, philosophically, scientifically, etc. Each side of discussion may (or may not) be very invested in their belief and, if so, will most likely give a very sincere answer, even if it turns out to be objectively wrong.

By no means am I defending Atheism here (I do think Atheism, by definition, is a foolish concept), but I don't think the discussion itself is dumb. Often times, we discuss theism amongst ourselves and I often think it turns out to be pretty intelligent.

Discussing God's attributes / asking why we are here is fine and very interesting. That is not atheism though. Granted the goal posts keep moving. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about discussion with atheists. I am imagining the subject of ''Does God exist''. Answering that is as easy as using any of your five senses or grasping that you can use them. As Isaac Newton says ''just looking at the palm of his hand can convince him of God''. There is nothing dumber then not believing in God's existence. Now they follow a belief that has this as its title . Absolutely genius and definitely completely open to learning....

They should alter the meaning to ''belief in the unknown God''.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Discussing God's attributes / asking why we are here is fine and very interesting. That is not atheism though. Granted the goal posts keep moving. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about discussion with atheists. I am imagining the subject of ''Does God exist''. Answering that is as easy as using any of your five senses or grasping that you can use them. As Isaac Newton says ''just looking at the palm of his hand can convince him of God''. There is nothing dumber then not believing in God's existence. Now they follow a belief that has this as its title . Absolutely genius and definitely completely open to learning....

They should alter the meaning to ''belief in the unknown God''.

I think that's part of the confusion these days. The word Atheist has expanded to more than just "The belief of no deity." Many Atheists today (especially those within New Atheism) describe Atheism as the lack of a belief in anything, and therefore the burden of proof is only on the theist, and if the theist can provide any proof, the Atheist wins the argument...but that's not Atheism proper -- that would be agnosticism. If they claimed it was sincere Atheism, then they would be making an argument from ignorance.

I do think Atheism is usually offered pretty simplistically and far more reason and logic goes in the direction of God than Atheism, but I don't know if I'd call it dumb -- perhaps ignorant at most. I know many Christians who absolutely believe in God, but explaining his existence is something they would have trouble with. It doesn't mean they are dumb for it. Many, many Christians find God through their own suffering and struggles but have not once questioned the cosmos or concept of Logos.

Are there dumb arguments out there? Absolutely. But I don't think that just because there are dumb arguments out there means that everything presented in the discussion is going to be dumb. I don't think wrong automatically means dumb either.

By no means am I trying to give credit to Atheism -- I think we're all on board how wrong it is (there can't even be just a little bit of valid Atheism), but I do want to try and approach this discussion with a bit more understanding than I have in the past. I don't think boldness and sheer truth can be compromised in recognizing the rationale behind their argument, even if their rationale fallows something false.

Does that make sense?

 

[Lanolin]

Think you focussing on the wrong thing my friend.
Instead of constantly debating with athiests and ppl who want nothing to do with God, fix your eyes on Jesus.

They will come when they ready. You cannot force anyone to love God if they wont believe. Even if they do believe, does not mean they will love. Only Jesus saves..we just plant the seeds. God gives the growth.

You will get more crops and fruit if you plant on good soil. I dont know about you but Id like to see a harvest and not break my back on rocky ground.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Think you focussing on the wrong thing my friend.
Instead of constantly debating with athiests and ppl who want nothing to do with God, fix your eyes on Jesus.

They will come when they ready. You cannot force anyone to love God if they wont believe. Even if they do believe, does not mean they will love. Only Jesus saves..we just plant the seeds. God gives the growth.

You will get more crops and fruit if you plant on good soil. I dont know about you but Id like to see a harvest and not break my back on rocky ground.

I would never suggest forcing anything on anyone -- it doesn't even work by definition.
When I'm talking about discussing with Atheists, I don't mean constant debate, but rather how to engage them in a way that they will be able to grasp and understanding and hopefully accept eventually. I don't mean to do this as a way to diverge my site on Christ...I am very concerned for these people who don't know Him, and Atheism itself has become a pretty huge thing within my generation through the internet. I'd hate to see my generation plagued the way it has been (even though I know there will always be people who reject God). My hope is that I am doing God's will in evangelizing and further, that hearts and minds do change.

Many of them will never come to God even though it's His will that they do. So my goal here IS to plant seeds, and I think a great question that is being proposed is how do we do this? With love, of course. But beyond that, what steps should be made. We wouldn't evangelize the same way with Atheists as we might with wayward Christians who have become indifferent or with our Jewish and Muslim friends who are also monotheistic but don't accept Christianity.

So I'm not convinced what I am doing is against Christ -- I think I am doing the right thing is trying to reach out to others in His name. How I do it though is very important.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Lanolin]

Well, all you do is plant seeds, as I said.
I dont think you can do much to change the soil..but what God taught me through gardening is that sometimes we have to use pots as the soil is way too hard and transplant the seedlings to a good site when they grow a bit more.

Or we can dig in manure.
And mulch. Mulch is like love. Keeps the soil moist.

 

[Lanolin]

I had a friend in high school who was christian who went out with an athiest. Even though I wasnt born again back then, I told her, you should not go out with an athiest. he'll just break your heart. She had a quiet lovely faith and everyone could see she was a christian but even she could not love him into the gospel as he could only respond in lust.

Do not throw what is holy to the dogs, lest they turn and bite you. Do not cast your pearls before swine. Was it sadduccees that Jesus did not even bother with, though he sparred with Pharisees, calling them hypocrites.

just warning you.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Well, all you do is plant seeds, as I said.
I dont think you can do much to change the soil..but what God taught me through gardening is that sometimes we have to use pots as the soil is way too hard and transplant the seedlings to a good site when they grow a bit more.

Or we can dig in manure.
And mulch. Mulch is like love. Keeps the soil moist.

What do you like to grow out of curiosity?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I had a friend in high school who was christian who went out with an athiest. Even though I wasnt born again back then, I told her, you should not go out with an athiest. he'll just break your heart. She had a quiet lovely faith and everyone could see she was a christian but even she could not love him into the gospel as he could only respond in lust.

Do not throw what is holy to the dogs, lest they turn and bite you. Do not cast your pearls before swine. Was it sadduccees that Jesus did not even bother with, though he sparred with Pharisees, calling them hypocrites.

just warning you.

It's also written "always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." I think there's something to be applied there too sans casting pearls before swine.

 

[Lanolin]

Well if they ask sure..Jesus always answered his detractors except when they were mocking him on the cross then he didnt say anything. He didnt need to. Well he couldnt as he was dying.

What do I grow? Oh all things I like flowers, herbs, veges, ..maybe come chat with others on the gardening forum here.