Answering Atheism

A lot of people outside of england and born after the war would have no idea who c.s. Lewis is. Many just think hes a fantasy author, and as you know fantasy is make believe, so if you quoting c.s. Lewis you wont be credible.
Sorry. Not to bag c.s. Lewis or anything, but dont really know why many christians seem to put his words above Gods Word.

Just say your testimony, and if they believe you, hallelujah! If not, Jesus said to wipe the dust off your feet and move on. Athiests prolly have father issues, and cant see God as a dad as their own dads fell short.
 
Lanolin said:
A lot of people outside of england and born after the war would have no idea who c.s. Lewis is. Many just think hes a fantasy author, and as you know fantasy is make believe, so if you quoting c.s. Lewis you wont be credible.
Sorry. Not to bag c.s. Lewis or anything, but dont really know why many christians seem to put his words above Gods Word.

Just say your testimony, and if they believe you, hallelujah! If not, Jesus said to wipe the dust off your feet and move on. Athiests prolly have father issues, and cant see God as a dad as their own dads fell short.
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Who's putting C.S. Lewis' words against God's? I give credit to him for illustrating God's word so well, not contradicting it or going beyond it. I'm not concerned whether people only regard him as a fantasy author or not. If they aren't aware of his other works, I'm not at fault for their misunderstanding.

I'm not prepared to blame father issues on a lack of belief because I couldn't make such assumptions. With all due respect, if I were to do that, I'd be judging them as people rather than judging right from wrong.
 
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Oh. Just seems you want to be right all the time. To me. Thats why you wanna argue with athiests, cos you know God is always right, so those athiests arent lost at all, they just wrong. make you feel righteous?

We are saving souls here, not concerned about who is right or wrong. We all were sinners before we were saved...
 
Lanolin said:
Oh. Just seems you want to be right all the time. To me. Thats why you wanna argue with athiests, cos you know God is always right, so those athiests arent lost at all, they just wrong. make you feel righteous?

We are saving souls here, not concerned about who is right or wrong. We all were sinners before we were saved...
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This has nothing to do with winning arguments. The bottom line is how we can bring people to salvation, including Atheists.

That is extremely unfair of you to jump to a conclusion that my pride is driving me to this. I admit that I am a prideful person, which is why I need Christ so much and need his help to overcome that. But when I said I am concerned for lost souls, I meant exactly what I said. I do not want people to miss their chance and suffer division from God for eternity. I can't even begin to imagine what hell is really like, and I'm not sure I want to know. But what I do know is that God doesn't want anyone to be apart from Him and that each person must know Him.
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
No, I do not agree that the burden of proof is 100% on Atheists. That doesn't mean that I believe the burden of proof isn't on them either. If they have a claim (which they do), they must offer evidence to support it. But if we have a claim (which we do), we have a responsibility to offer evidence for that in our defense of God, even though our burden of proof points to truth and theirs does not. We are still making a claim and thus have a reason to defend it. The good news is that it's hardly a burden since we hold the right position that God is real and good.

Burden of proof can be on the side that holds objective truth. We see this in ethics and math all the time.

I guess if the burden of proof was 100% on any other group outside of Christianity, would 1 Peter 3:15 be an invalid passage?
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:) I think this is the core of our disagreement. Sure, not all atheists are Dawkins as you said. Some just entertain his thoughts and accept them without much thought. Those we can help. But a true atheist who does not see every atom and life as evidence for God, how can we help them believe in a Creator God? That specific discussion is a brick wall from their side. They are completely closed to the dead obvious. So we need to find a way around that wall. That would be sharing Jesus / faith 'in' God.

1 Pet 3:15 is an excellent verse. We need to read it before we discuss with any annoying people. Especially the ''do it with gentleness and respect''. But it speaks to me of the need for us to explain Jesus. The hope in us is Jesus. Those OT would have hope in God being good and finding a means to justify them if they repent and hate what is evil. It really does not speak to me of the need to explain ....God's existence. That is almost as bad as me telling you about the woman that changed my life...she has 10 toes and 10 fingers, two ears and a nose...and guess what two eyes too. Everyone ''''knows''''' God set the planets in motion. God started our hearts beating. All I would say to atheists re God's existence is ''Frankenstein is a sci-fi film that will stay sci-fi... forever''. Lets just accept that and ....move on.
 
KingJ said:
:) I think this is the core of our disagreement. Sure, not all atheists are Dawkins as you said. Some just entertain his thoughts and accept them without much thought. Those we can help. But a true atheist who does not see every atom and life as evidence for God, how can we help them believe in a Creator God? That specific discussion is a brick wall from their side. They are completely closed to the dead obvious. So we need to find a way around that wall. That would be sharing Jesus / faith 'in' God.
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I don't know if I said anything in contradiction. Although I guess the point I was making wasn't that sharing Christ with Atheists and Agnostics wasn't the way around the wall -- my point was there IS a way around that wall in ORDER to to share Christ with them. Sharing Christ isn't the journey, it's the destination. How the journey is to be taken in order to reach that destination is what I've been talking about this whole time.

KingJ said:
1 Pet 3:15 is an excellent verse. We need to read it before we discuss with any annoying people. Especially the ''do it with gentleness and respect''. But it speaks to me of the need for us to explain Jesus. The hope in us is Jesus. Those OT would have hope in God being good and finding a means to justify them if they repent and hate what is evil. It really does not speak to me of the need to explain ....God's existence. That is almost as bad as me telling you about the woman that changed my life...she has 10 toes and 10 fingers, two ears and a nose...and guess what two eyes too. Everyone ''''knows''''' God set the planets in motion. God started our hearts beating. All I would say to atheists re God's existence is ''Frankenstein is a sci-fi film that will stay sci-fi... forever''. Lets just accept that and ....move on.
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I think if people are sincerely not recognizing his existence (maybe because of talking points they heard from somewhere, or people who mistake the material for being the only existence we have), that would mean we'd have to explain why that's not the case. Maybe if someone were to say "I don't believe in what is material," we'd respond, "You don't believe in numbers?" And we'd take it from there.

Truth be told, I don't know what is in the minds and hearts of Atheists. I can get a general idea through Scripture as to why some people will reject God, but each individual has a different and precise story. Some may have been raised in a strict Atheist family...some may have been raised in a Christian family but never had a proper catechesis...some may have been theists at one point and then suffered a serious trauma and then felt no God could ever allow this so they stopped believing (not understanding how God works). I'd hate to misjudge and clump them into one solid category before even understanding how they came to their conclusion. Wouldn't that at least be sensible?
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
I don't know if I said anything in contradiction.
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You said the burden of proof is not 100% on them. Them not acknowledging every atom points to God = brick wall. Burden of evidence for God's existence = 100% on them. Burden of evidence for Jesus / Christian God = 100% on us / God.
 
KingJ said:
You said the burden of proof is not 100% on them. Them not acknowledging every atom points to God = brick wall. Burden of evidence for God's existence = 100% on them. Burden of evidence for Jesus / Christian God = 100% on us / God.
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So then you agree that there is equal burden on each side provided there is a claim that's been made ;) I'm with you.
 
It has been my experience that since flesh and blood cannot reveal that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, but only the Father, that trying to get the soul of the Atheist saved is the number one block to actually accomplishing that goal. Remember the Aesop's Fable of the wind and the Sun? The harder the wind blew the more tenaciously the person held onto their outer garment!

You see while I consider Atheism to be inevitably indefensible, I have to respect an honest agnostic. At least they do not deny the possibility that there COULD BE a God, they just have no personal experience or reason to hook their faith anchor on it.

So my approach has always been to strive to make the atheist see and get them to realize that there could be and then let that seed grow. Getting them to see the flaws in some of their logic and showing them some of the reasons why there could be a God can go far to bringing them from a hardline atheism to an honest agnosticism.

Once they accept and admit that there COULD BE a God, then one can work to debate or argue that there is...before that you are hitting a brick wall. It would be like me trying to convince you of the Santa, merry old elf, who slides down your chimney!!!! It just will not happen...

The Lord bless

Paul
 
What is in the hearts and minds of atheists?
I know from experience that its father issues. And pride. And unbelief.
My mum is a case in point, and also this other athiest I know, ultimately they bear grudges, they cannot forgive thus cant be forgiven, and this is blocking them from receiving Gods grace.

No amount of arguing or claims can make them see until God reveals it to them. How to shine the light? Love them.
I was an athiest, had an atheist mindset before I knew God. I thought if there was a God, he didnt exist for ME because if there was one, surely he couldnt love me. I was wrong. But I couldnt live being shut out of Gods love forever. If look back, it may have been christians provoking me to jealousy because they had something I didnt have. Peace. joy. Love.

I wanted this..but to proud to admit God could really exist and do all the things it said in the Bible. It was like fiction and hard to understand..I was living in the natural, I had no concept.
Ask an athiest to describe where love comes from and ultimately one would have to conclude it comes from God above. Love is something you cant see but you know it when you are being loved. Its a lot different from being hurt thats for sure. Jesus showed us what love is, laying down his life for his friends. Had anyone ever done that for me? No..but Jesus did. I had to accept this, and it was a done deal.
 
When I look back on the path I took (or more to the point the path the Lord laid for me), I am struck by the number and gentleness of ways He used to bring me to a personal understanding.

It is not up to us to convince others. God does not need _me_ to defend Him, or His word. Most often it will be small things, orchestrated by the Lord, that added together brings the unbeliever to Him. Sometimes we sill be presented with a task requiring more forceful presentation. It is not so much our choice as His.

We should not be so intent on doing spiritual warfare that we drive potential believers away.

A case from my experience:
I was taking a walk during lunch with a co-worker. We passed a Christian group setting up a display. My friend was very upset and talked about his lesbian niece who was being harassed (his word) by local churches.
I wanted to provide a positive (and pointed) response. I asked him, already guessing the answer "Is she a Christian?"
He responded "No, but she just wants to be left alone".
I replied that rather than concentrating on the sexuality issue, she needs to correct her relationship to God.

I do not know if this had a good result or not, but I do know that all sin separates the man from God. The acts that we term sin are just a reflection of the heart. From that standpoint, her sin is no different from mine. Mine may have been forgiven, but the sin itself is real. A sinner that renounces a particular sin remains a sinner. A sinner that accepts Christ becomes a sinner saved by grace. Once one accepts Christ into their heart He can work in their lives to strengthen them against temptation. Any particular sin may not be the first or most pressing issue from God's standpoint.

By the way, I understand the terms atheist and heathen, but they are contemptuous in tone, and I refrain from attaching them to individuals or groups without due consideration. It is not a matter of whether they are accurate, but I wish to view the unbelievers as being worthwhile potential brothers.
 
Lanolin said:
What is in the hearts and minds of atheists?
I know from experience that its father issues. And pride. And unbelief.
My mum is a case in point, and also this other athiest I know, ultimately they bear grudges, they cannot forgive thus cant be forgiven, and this is blocking them from receiving Gods grace.

No amount of arguing or claims can make them see until God reveals it to them. How to shine the light? Love them.
I was an athiest, had an atheist mindset before I knew God. I thought if there was a God, he didnt exist for ME because if there was one, surely he couldnt love me. I was wrong. But I couldnt live being shut out of Gods love forever. If look back, it may have been christians provoking me to jealousy because they had something I didnt have. Peace. joy. Love.

I wanted this..but to proud to admit God could really exist and do all the things it said in the Bible. It was like fiction and hard to understand..I was living in the natural, I had no concept.
Ask an athiest to describe where love comes from and ultimately one would have to conclude it comes from God above. Love is something you cant see but you know it when you are being loved. Its a lot different from being hurt thats for sure. Jesus showed us what love is, laying down his life for his friends. Had anyone ever done that for me? No..but Jesus did. I had to accept this, and it was a done deal.
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I have no doubt pride is an interference.
And it's true that we all have our own personal experiences, though I don't agree that every experience is the same. Just as your conversion is not the same as mine. For instance, your understanding before becoming a Christian sounded more like agnosticism and possible deism (belief in A God, but not a personal God).

There really are many different perspectives and even within each one, different reasons for why someone holds them. With all due respect of course, I don't think it's fair to say it's father issues when someone Atheists seem to have healthy relationships with their fathers, though still don't believe in God. Likewise, many Christians have father issues (like my brother-in-law) while I too am a Christian and have a healthy relationship with my ole' dad.
 
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I myself have better things to do than argue with unbelievers or make myself feel good just cos I have faith and others don't.
 
Lanolin said:
I myself have better things to do than argue with unbelievers or make myself feel good just cos I have faith and others don't.
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I suspect I'm still being misunderstood on this point. I don't want this to be taken as "How to argue an atheist and win" nor do I want to be misunderstood for saying "There is only one way an Atheist can come to believe in God." Some Atheists come to accept God strictly from people only loving them and not making a statement. To quote St. Francis of Assisi "Always preach the Gospel, and if necessary, use words." And then, some Atheists reason their way into the existence of God and become Christians, like G.K. Chesterton or Peter Hitchens (brother of the late Christopher Hitchens). And then there are Atheists who become Christians through other mean. However, I'm positive that in all cases, prayer is part of the effort, which is where we recognize love's effort.

I've always been fascinated by conversion stories ever since I was a very little kid in hearing St. Paul's story and then, more modernly, Nicky Cruz.
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
I've been reading a book lately called Answering Atheism: How To Make the Case for God with Logic and Charity. I highly recommend it.

As I've been reading it, I was re-thinking how I've approached my discussion with Atheists and I wonder if I've gone about it the wrong way.

Evangelism is provocative and can be offensive, but sometimes I think the way some of us approach it, we almost intend for offensiveness to take place rather than just allowing the truth to unfold, whether people are offended or not.

Atheists (especially so many in this generation who fall under the New Atheism category) can be very aggressive and hostile and downright snarky when it comes to their addressing religion. The leading voices (Dawkins and Harris for example) have said very blatantly that Atheists SHOULD try to be aggressive and even mean-spirited. Though looking back on how I've addressed it, I wonder if I've responded the same way, even if it has been unintentional.

What books would I hand to my Atheist friends that offer the argument's for God's existence? Many of them I've picked up have come off kind of mean-spirited too.

While Christianity isn't solely focused on feelings, our understanding of people is one thing that makes Christianity unique. After all, God was understanding that He had to reach out to us through His Son to save us since He knew we weren't capable of reaching to Him on our own.

Anyway, I recommend this book. It's incredibly well-written. Answering Atheism by Trent Horn.

What are your thoughts? Has there ever been a time where you felt even with good intentions your approach could have been better? Do you sometimes confuse boldness with hostility?
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You are absolutely correct. Christianity is a religion of the heart. We give up our right to retaliate because He has purchased with a price. Therefore, when relating to unbelievers and even other "Christians," we must first show them what they do not have--Jesus.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32
 
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