That's entirely feasible. Not many husbands quiz their wives about the ingredients used to make the supper set before them.
Apples 'n Stuff
- Thread starter LearningToLetGo
- Start date
Where it's always good practice to first look at the literal before going into the allegorical and comparative, but in this case, there's enough room for question against any thing and every thing that any one may come up with that points to specifics that may fit in to any one of the seeming gaps in the account. I am with my wife as her husband, although no with her physically. Although I am with her, I will be with her physically when she brings me something to eat from a local pizza joint.
So you see, "with" someone can take on a whole whale of a lot of meaning, leaving everyone else to speculate about the particulars, which just might happen to satisfy their appetite for assumption.
I will also say that there are quite a number of "teachers" out there who are more than willing to fixate on a particular that sensationalizes them into fame through their silly books and talk shows on social media for viewership. When they develop their following, they can then fleece their followers for whatever gain they can get from them.
MM
BL, your the limit...(snicker, snort)
I like that, and I agree....but don't tell my wife!
MM
You have had a lot of really good answers to a lot of really good questions. I dont think anything I could add would be any different.
First of all, we do not know that it was an apple!!!! Maybe and maybe not.
I would only say that it is clear that Adam was the husband and was created to be the leader in the marital relationship and that Eve as the wife was created to be the helper. As the leader it was Adam’s responsibility to protect and provide for his family. This leadership role was clearly demonstrated when God talked with Adam and Eve following their sin.
Even though Eve sinned before Adam, God questioned Adam first. This was because of the leadership role God ordained for husbands in marriage. Adam, was the FEDERAL HEADSHIP position and as the leader of the family, he was held responsible, not only for his own sin of eating from the tree, but also because he did not provide adequate protection for his wife, allowing her to sin.
In the New Testament, Adam is clearly presented as both progenitor and representative of all mankind. All through the New Test. we see that Adam is the person through whom sin and resulting death entered the world.
You know, This had never occurred to me before, but do you suppose it's possible, based on what you said above, that sin ONLY entered the world through Adam's intentional disobedience rather than Eve's having been deceived? I mean, that seems to be the logical conclusion, given that the declarations are made repeatedly about sin entering the world through one man, not the man AND the woman.
Now, don't get me wrong. I normally don't like speculating about alternatives since there really never were alternatives in the timeline of human kind, but...might Eve have found pardon for her part had not Adam intentionally disobeyed...?
Hmm. Well, I'll stop there since, as I said, speculations for alternatives is actually a vain exercise since the path that we are on is the very pathway the Lord had intended from before the foundations of the world. Some out there may not like that. Those who don't will have to explain why the Lord did not intervene, as He had done with the flood, in order to keep it all going in the direction of His intentions.
MM
YES I do my brother.
In Romans 5:12....the Greek word for the phrase “came” is eiserchomi. The word means “go into” or “to come into” with the focus on the initial act.
That is, when Adam disobeyed, sin entered or came into the world. It did not exist in the world until he disobeyed. His single act of disobedience was an act of sin; at that moment sin was a reality in a previously sinless world which is validated in Romans 8:20-22.
Sin did not exist on earth before Adam’s teeth sunk into the fruit of the tree. How did sin enter our earth? The answer is that sin became a reality in the world when Adam disobeyed God. In that sense, Adam was the originator of sin because he was the FEDERAL HEAD of humanity.
James 1:14-15 says that sin is the result of our actions. We cause sin to occur.
The question that I intentionally avoided, up to this point, was this: Would Eve have found forgiveness on the basis of her being deceived had Adam not fallen?
I know, I know. THIS is where speculation starts getting wonky, because no man can say for sure how that alternative might have played out. Anything ANYONE says from here on, in relation to that alternative, is pure speculation since it never happened, and was never a possibility.
MM
I think she would have been punished, because Adam had told her not to eat that fruit. I have had others ask what if Adam had stopped Eve and waited for God, to ask him about what the devil said, I answered with... Then the devil would have tried again. Looking at the character of God He would not have allowed sin to go unpunished, Adam may have been rewarded but we will never know. Again this is all speculation.
If sin is defined as disobeying God, and if sin did not enter the world until Adam ate of the tree, then Eve's eating of the tree was not an act of disobedience against God.
Yet, as Dave has mentioned, one can easily extrapolate the intent of the law was for no human to eat of the tree. So are we to say Eve was the first lawyer?
Several have mentioned federal headship and I see merit in that argument. It comports with passages such as below which imply federal salvation.
"And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’" (Acts 11:13-14 ESV)
So what are we to do? Are we to accept salvation and damnation as a federated action or are we to accept them on the individual level?
Yet, as Dave has mentioned, one can easily extrapolate the intent of the law was for no human to eat of the tree. So are we to say Eve was the first lawyer?
Several have mentioned federal headship and I see merit in that argument. It comports with passages such as below which imply federal salvation.
"And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’" (Acts 11:13-14 ESV)
So what are we to do? Are we to accept salvation and damnation as a federated action or are we to accept them on the individual level?
If....And......But!
I guess the answer lies in the fact that the 2nd Adam allowed the forgivness of all sin by all people!
Agreed. God told Adam. Adam told Eve. So who told Eve...........God!
Agree. All sin is punished.
And yet sin entered the world when Adam ate, not Eve.
You do realize that you are going down a real deep rabbit hole. Right????If sin is defined as disobeying God, and if sin did not enter the world until Adam ate of the tree, then Eve's eating of the tree was not an act of disobedience against God.
Yet, as Dave has mentioned, one can easily extrapolate the intent of the law was for no human to eat of the tree. So are we to say Eve was the first lawyer?
Several have mentioned federal headship and I see merit in that argument. It comports with passages such as below which imply federal salvation.
"And he told us how he had seen the angel stand in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon who is called Peter; he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’" (Acts 11:13-14 ESV)
So what are we to do? Are we to accept salvation and damnation as a federated action or are we to accept them on the individual level?
IMHO the answer is YES. Because of original sin from Adam as the Head of Humanity, we are all affected by that sin. = Federated!
Because of the work Christ did to fix what Adam did all men can be saved. Again that is "Federated."
However, every man must make a choice as to receiving the gift Christ made possible = Individual!
God knows all things, including those who will be saved which is THE ELECT.
Then we need to understand that God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. = INDIVIDULE CHOICE!
Then God desires all men to be saved. (John 3:16) = Federated.
Jesus died to redeem all men. = Federated.
Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. = Individual.
Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again = Individual.
Again.......back to Federal Headship = Responsibility!
The Husband is the head of the family!
Of course I do. That's my intention.
In other words, Eve did not sin against God since it was by Adam's actions that sin entered the world. From a purely technical point of view, Eve is as blameless as are we since it was Adam who caused this mess. Eve, and indeed all of humanity, is simply caught up in that one bit of family drama.
If Eve is blameless, then why did God punish her?
Nothing in Scripture states that Adam was with Eve at the time of her being deceived.
She could have given Adam the fruit sometime later.
I just went back and read Genesis 3 again and it does not say Adam was with her, only that she gave him the fruit to eat. I also read Adam Clarke's commentary on it and his thoughts on the serpent are rather interesting.
Adam was Eve’s Lord and patriarchal head. He had the authority to stop her. Adam could also have intervened when Eve was talking to the Serpent. He could have warned her not to listen to the Serpent. He could have stopped Eve from wandering into the area of the two forbidden trees.
So, is Eve blameless or accountable?
Adam and Eve both bore the punishment, whether they were blameless or accountable. Death entered the human race.
I'm seeing bunny wabbits hopping all over the place here....
They sure can multiply...
MM