Are All Forgiven?

Lifeasweknowit said:
Thank you Rumely. I am known for my elephant type memory as well. I suppose it's a blessing and a curse. Speaking of the scripture regarding forgiving others which allows us to be forgiven, are you saying that it can be interpreted differently? Because If read it for what it is, then it is strictly saying that if I do not forgive others, God will not forgive me. That seems pretty straightforward... If you are saying what you are saying, which I would love to believe, and which, if He is truly a loving God that is true, is there anywhere else in the Bible that shows that verse isn't as starightforward as it appears?
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I think we are back to a 'context literal' translation again in your inquiry 'Tink'. Jesus is teaching the famous "Sermon on the Mount" and is probably addressing a large crowd in a short period of time which usually means more meat and less of the trimmings. Taking the entirety of the Bible and what we know of Jesus Christ & God's character-would it make sense that you would be condemned for failing to forgive wholeheartedly?

Our goal is to constantly strive to be more like Christ is it not? In all areas....
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I agree completely, but how do you forgive when the memory is so fresh and you're trying, but it's not working? I was reading the Bible yesterday and praying, but when I think of this girl, I am just so angry at her or upset, and feel that she has really betrayed me. I just feel like cutting her out of my life completely is the best thing for me to move on. By cutting her out, I mean taking her off my facebook so I don't have to continue seeing her, which reminds me of yhe situations. I know this probably seems futile, but liars really upset me to the core.
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Tink, I recall you remarking a while back about the similarities between us two. As I have followed your posts I can see more and more of me in your personality. So many times as I read what you post, I think..."that is exactly how I would have phrased it".
Coupla things we have to watch out for. If you unfriend this person, it is 'burning bridges' between you. Something I know with regret that I'm expert at. The other thing 9is the backfiring nature of Prayer. Yep backfiring, but in a positive way.
If you can manage to put this person on your prayer 'hit list', praying for her well being, (not praying the Lord will bounce a brick off her head:) ) You will find that you will begin to see her though the eyes of the Lord. Keeping contact with her through FB could be one way of you being able to keep a prayerfully watchful eye on her. Another good weapon I have found is to write a letter outlining your feelings about her, what she did and so on. You remember the good old days...A sheet of paper, an envelope and a postage stamp? The very exercise of writing out a letter where you do not have the luxury of highlight/delete, cut, copy, paste helps us to really think the issues through without firing off thoughts that can not be retrieved.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Thank you Rumely. I am known for my elephant type memory as well. I suppose it's a blessing and a curse. Speaking of the scripture regarding forgiving others which allows us to be forgiven, are you saying that it can be interpreted differently? Because If read it for what it is, then it is strictly saying that if I do not forgive others, God will not forgive me. That seems pretty straightforward... If you are saying what you are saying, which I would love to believe, and which, if He is truly a loving God that is true, is there anywhere else in the Bible that shows that verse isn't as starightforward as it appears?
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I'm not Rumely (we both say "Amen" :) )......
You might want to reflect on the following:
John 10:25. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
John 10:26. but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
John 10:27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:28. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 10:30. I and the Father are one."

You are that "no one'. Christians are safe from both the wolves and their own shortcomings.
Have you ever seen sheep following someone? I have. I have noticed that they do follow en-mass, however now and then individuals get sidetracked and distracted, but they usually catch up with the flock.
We can learn a lot by watching sheep since Jesus used them as teaching examples so often.
As Rumely pointed out earlier, it is not what we do, it is what Jesus did that brings us salvation.
So, we sheep do get distracted with personal egocentric issues such as hating someone to bits, but as long as we don't make a determined effort to jump sheepfolds, we are safe.
Just remember though that if you can (with the Lord's help) forgive this person, it will be win, win, win for you.
You can win back a former friend, you can win a victory over the sin of hate, you can win the freedom that comes from a healthier attitude to yourself.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Sorry Katie! My post came off wrong. No scripture, no matter how much I disagree or don't like, is wrong. All scripture is correct and true.

Also, it makes sense, but what about those who have been terribly abused in life versus those that have had a rather smooth life? I have a friend that has just had the luckiest life i've seen and he's always happy and forgiving. Recently saved but before that not really Christian. Now that he's turned Christian, he got his GF pregnant and well, life is just now starting to get hard for him.

Anyhow, it says in the bible that God does not play favorites, but there must be a distinction amongst those he saves (depending on how their lives have gone) and doesn't. Can anyone point to that in the scriptures?
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On the underlined just read James 2; it should clear up all the fog.

It doesn't matter whether your life was smooth or rough. God is 100% impartial and '''maximizes opportunities''' to test us. Just look at Job's encounter with the devil with an open mind. God allowed the devil to torture Job up to the point of death but not take his life. This tells me that God does not know our thresh-holds! More confirmation of true free will. But God does know the signs of breaking / tearing at the seams and then steps in. If Job was failing, God would have stepped in I believe and Job would still be en-route to heaven.

Think of it another way. When you get married, you know your husband loves you even if he doesn't mow the lawn. As he has sunk to a deeper depth of inner intention in marriage. But now, how much deeper will your relationship be if he had to survive hot woman at work throwing themselves at him? God tries this with us. We may not like to hear that, but imho it is very true!!! God wants to see our breaking points. God wants to give us rewards in heaven. God wants us all to have a deep as possible relationship with Him. The only limiting factor is us. God did not have much control over our sufferings or smooth life before we got saved (free will of the evil to hurt), but now that we are saved, He can step in and get involved. We have in a sense relinquished our free will and given Him permission to have His way in our lives. He has to give us all the opportunity that Job had. Understanding why Paul says we must rejoice in our suffering is quite a revelation (Rom 5:3).
 
Rusty said:
There were many non-Christians I had to separate from my life when I was first saved; it's normal. Later, as God healed me and I grew to stand on the Rock, He allowed me to reconnect. Sometimes it was a failure (I had changed) and some I am renewing friendships with.
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Just thinking about your post and the thread title. Who here can honestly say that if Paul had killed our loved ones, we would not forgive him and have a great friendship with him after hearing him speak as a changed man?
Lifeasweknowit said:
Hmm. A mi no me gusta. I've read this scripture before. What if I get in a car crash and die to today without forgiving something right away that upset me? I thought it says to believe Jesus died for our sins and we are forgiven. Which one is it? Both? Just doesn't seem feasible. I can say I forgive, but in my heart it may take longer. I can't control my heart.
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If my wife's last words to me before she dies were 'I hate you' and she crashed my car into the garage, does that make her not my wife? Consistent adultery however....
 
Tink, something else to ponder. The Lord hates sin but He does not hate sinners. If He did we would all be just so much dead meat.
Rom 5:8. but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I try to avoid 'one liners', however, I'm not taking this out of context.
Hate what this person did to you, but remember how the Lord deals with sinners.
I'm not saying you need to die for her....but I know you get the idea:)
 
calvin said:
Tink, something else to ponder. The Lord hates sin but He does not hate sinners.
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I'm quite sure our Lord does hate sinners. Here are a few examples: Again, pretty clear scriptures. I read the context and don't see another way around them, though please correct me if I'm wrong.



Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
I'm pretty sure he's not referring to the actual hands.

Malachi 1

1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


Psalm 11
5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 5
5 The arrogant cannot stand
in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I'm quite sure our Lord does hate sinners. Here are a few examples: Again, pretty clear scriptures. I read the context and don't see another way around them, though please correct me if I'm wrong.



Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
I'm pretty sure he's not referring to the actual hands.

Malachi 1

1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


Psalm 11
5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 5
5 The arrogant cannot stand
in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
Click to expand...

Well here's the thing Tink: Other than Jesus-please name 1 (one) human that was not a sinner?
 
Yes, but what I'm saying is, Calvin said God does not hate sinners, but it clearly shows in the bible he does hate some-He himself said it!

I'm not saying he doesn't love all of us, because you are correct, we are all sinners. Was just making a point to Calv.

Calv, I love your input! You're always kind and fair. :love: Perhaps I was misinterpreting your point with that particular post though??
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I'm quite sure our Lord does hate sinners. Here are a few examples: Again, pretty clear scriptures. I read the context and don't see another way around them, though please correct me if I'm wrong.



Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
I'm pretty sure he's not referring to the actual hands.

Malachi 1

1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


Psalm 11
5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 5
5 The arrogant cannot stand
in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
Click to expand...
OK, Proverbs 6:16-19. Six things the Lord hates, not six people.

Malachi 1:3. Hated probably at least means to love less.
Look first at the origins of this scripture.:
Gen 25:21 And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 The children struggled together within her, and she said, "If it is thus, why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger."
Gen 25:24 When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb.
Gen 25:25 The first came out red, all his body like a hairy cloak, so they called his name Esau.
Gen 25:26 Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau's heel, so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

So, the history behind Jacob and Esau was that they were twins. The Lord selected Jacob to be the link in the lineage to Christ. Esau, being a twin brother had to play second fiddle throughout his life, but note that he too was the 'ben' of a nation.
That nation was to carry his name and when that nation transgressed the law of the Lord, they suffered loss. Not because of Esau, but because of their own industrious efforts.
See Gen 36:1 These are the generations of Esau (that is, Edom). When we read of Edom, we are reading od the nation founded by Esau. Now look at the character of Edom:
Num 20:14 Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom: "Thus says your brother Israel: You know all the hardship that we have met:
Num 20:17 Please let us pass through your land. We will not pass through field or vineyard, or drink water from a well. We will go along the King's Highway. We will not turn aside to the right hand or to the left until we have passed through your territory."
Num 20:18 But Edom said to him, "You shall not pass through, lest I come out with the sword against you."

Sounds reasonable to me, but the king of Edom was a bit unfriendly, in fact he became an enemy of Israel.

Num 20:19 And the people of Israel said to him, "We will go up by the highway, and if we drink of your water, I and my livestock, then I will pay for it. Let me only pass through on foot, nothing more."
Num 20:20 But he said, "You shall not pass through." And Edom came out against them with a large army and with a strong force.
Num 20:21 Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his territory, so Israel turned away from him.

The Blessing of Isaac: Gen 27:27 So he came near and kissed him. And Isaac smelled the smell of his garments and blessed him and said, "See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field that the LORD has blessed!
Gen 27:28 May God give you of the dew of heaven and of the fatness of the earth and plenty of grain and wine.
Gen 27:29 Let peoples serve you, and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be everyone who blesses you!"
Gen 27:30 As soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, when Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, Esau his brother came in from his hunting.
This is ratified later:

Num 24:1 When Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not go, as at other times, to look for omens, but set his face toward the wilderness.
Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe. And the Spirit of God came upon him,
Num 24:3 and he took up his discourse and said, "The oracle of Balaam the son of Beor, the oracle of the man whose eye is opened,
Num 24:4 the oracle of him who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, falling down with his eyes uncovered:
Num 24:5 How lovely are your tents, O Jacob, your encampments, O Israel!
Num 24:6 Like palm groves that stretch afar, like gardens beside a river, like aloes that the LORD has planted, like cedar trees beside the waters.
Num 24:7 Water shall flow from his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters; his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.
Num 24:8 God brings him out of Egypt and is for him like the horns of the wild ox; he shall eat up the nations, his adversaries, and shall break their bones in pieces and pierce them through with his arrows.
Num 24:9 He crouched, he lay down like a lion and like a lioness; who will rouse him up? Blessed are those who bless you, and cursed are those who curse you."
Num 24:10 And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he struck his hands together. And Balak said to Balaam, "I called you to curse my enemies, and behold, you have blessed them these three times.
So, there is more to this than just reading a verse.

More to follow.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Yes, but what I'm saying is, Calvin said God does not hate sinners, but it clearly shows in the bible he does hate some-He himself said it!

I'm not saying he doesn't love all of us, because you are correct, we are all sinners. Was just making a point to Calv.

Calv, I love your input! You're always kind and fair. :love: Perhaps I was misinterpreting your point with that particular post though??
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That's OK, we need to be challenged so that the teaching on this forum remains on target.
Sorry about the long post, but I could find no shorter way.
 
Rusty said:
Yep and stole Esau's birthright (inheritance) by conning him with his favorite food.
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So why did God allow this? Calvin said : "The Lord selected Jacob to be the link in the lineage to Christ." Why would God allow a liar to be the link in lineage to Christ?

I wont lie, that part in Genesis is really throwing me off and almost seems like a fable.
 
Rusty said:
Why would He "allow" sinners like you and me to become Christ's Family?
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I'm sorry, this does nothing for me. I need answers and clear answers. Sorry Rusty, we can go around and around with metaphors, analogies, comparisons, etc, but it does nothing to explain the word to someone so new to this (albeit, non denominational Christianity) I hope you understand where my frustration is coming from.

Jacob is told by his mom to put fake hair on his arms because is poor dad is blind and pretend to be the other son in order to get blessed. That's TWO people lying and God moves forward and blesses him just because Jacobs dad says so? Then God hates Esau? What? Really? I read NO where in Genesis prior to this, that Esau was a bad man. This story doesn't make sense.
 
OK, if God knows who is going to be saved, are we just acting out Gods play?

I know I put on another thread if there was no free will then we would be ^, but if everyone is saying he knows, which-how can't he? Then, we are just acting out a big play. I'm confused!!

By the way, this is in no way, shape or form, me doubting God and Jesus, but it makes me question why all of this is happening when He knows what is going to happen. I'm incredibly confused about the concept of free will. You have no idea how terribly thrown off I am about that aspect of our Lord. It really troubles me.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I'm quite sure our Lord does hate sinners. Here are a few examples:

Psalm 11
5 The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalm 5
5 The arrogant cannot stand
in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
Click to expand...
Psa 11:5 Somewhat a strange scripture is this one. frankly I think the Heb rew text is a bit hard even for translators.
Why do I say this? First I checked out the Septuagint which reads :Psa 11:5 The lord inquires diligently to the just and the impious; but the one loving injustice detests his own soul. Now that is an interesting change in focus. Next I went to a Hebrew literal translation (see how hard you have me working? :)) Psa 11:5 reads "Yahweh righteous one he is testing and wicked one and one loving of wrong she hates soul of him".
Now that is strange enough to force a careful understanding....the Lord is not feminine.
This suggests what the Septuagint says. Remember the Septuagint was a translation undetaken by a panel of just over seventy Hebrew speaking scholars. So they would have a very good idea.

Psa 5:5 +/- is really speaking of judgment notice in verse 4 that evil will not dwell with the Lord and in v7, "But I, through the abundance of your steadfast love, will enter your house. I will bow down toward your holy temple in the fear of you. " 'your house' is not 'your holy temple' If David were in the temple, he could not bow toward it. So he has in mind entering heaven where there will be no evil, and there worshiping the Lord.
Hope this helps.
What we need to look at is all the passages that speak of the Love of God for those who are evil yet.
Matt 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
OK, if God knows who is going to be saved, are we just acting out Gods play?

I know I put on another thread if there was no free will then we would be ^, but if everyone is saying he knows, which-how can't he? Then, we are just acting out a big play. I'm confused!!

By the way, this is in no way, shape or form, me doubting God and Jesus, but it makes me question why all of this is happening when He knows what is going to happen. I'm incredibly confused about the concept of free will. You have no idea how terribly thrown off I am about that aspect of our Lord. It really troubles me.
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To which post are you referring specifically?
 
calvin said:
Psa 11:5 Somewhat a strange scripture is this one. frankly I think the Heb rew text is a bit hard even for translators.
Why do I say this? First I checked out the Septuagint which reads :psa 11:5 The lord inquires diligently to the just and the impious; but the one loving injustice detests his own soul. Now that is an interesting change in focus. Next I went to a Hebrew literal translation (see how hard you have me working? :)) Psa 11:5 reads "Yahweh righteous one he is testing and wicked one and one loving of wrong she hates soul of him".
Now that is strange enough to force a careful understanding....the Lord is not feminine.
This suggests what the Septuagint says. Remember the Septuagint was a translation undetaken by a panel of just over seventy Hebrew speaking scholars. So they would have a very good idea.
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Calvin, with all do respect, all this does is make me question the entire translation of the bible.

I feel like I'm being mean by asking these questions, so please don't take it the wrong way at all! I just want to get to the point where I can speak confidently to those about Christ because I know others have these questions too. Thank you for being understanding and patient~
 
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