Are all Muslims troublemakers?

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

Wikipedia. Notorious for agenda because anyone can edit it anonymously. Even Muslims!

If that were the case you would see the neutrality of the article listed as being in dispute which it isn't. You can also look through all the revisions of the page quite easily.

 

[C1oudwatch3r]

If that were the case you would see the neutrality of the article listed as being in dispute which it isn't. You can also look through all the revisions of the page quite easily.

Well, Muslims certainly would not dispute it if it is to their benefit, obviously.

Most Americans do not even bother to study what Islam is about before they buy into the politically correct version of it. Hence, they would not dispute it.

Muslims who disagree with how Wikipedia presents taqiyya would not dispute it for fear for their lives.

Americans who disagree with how Wikipedia presents taqiyya would probably not depend on Wikipedia for accurate information, knowing how easily it gives false information.

I'm just pointing out, PLAR, how easy it is to be fooled by Wikipedia. Did you read the paragraph under the "Origin" subtitle on Wikipedia? If you want to accept Wikipedia as accurate, then you must accept that portion as well.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

Well, Muslims certainly would not dispute it if it is to their benefit, obviously.

Most Americans do not even bother to study what Islam is about before they buy into the politically correct version of it. Hence, they would not dispute it.

Muslims who disagree with how Wikipedia presents taqiyya would not dispute it for fear for their lives.

Americans who disagree with how Wikipedia presents taqiyya would probably not depend on Wikipedia for accurate information, knowing how easily it gives false information.

I'm just pointing out, PLAR, how easy it is to be fooled by Wikipedia. Did you read the paragraph under the "Origin" subtitle on Wikipedia? If you want to accept Wikipedia as accurate, then you must accept that portion as well.

I just think we are fundamentally going to disagree on this issue. It's a rather enormous statement to make that an entire religion consists of evil murderers. There are Christians like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer who were murderers, and less famous people who bomb abortion clinics and so forth. I'm sure no Christians would want to be held up to those examples either.

 

[C1oudwatch3r]

I just think we are fundamentally going to disagree on this issue. It's a rather enormous statement to make that an entire religion consists of evil murderers. There are Christians like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer who were murderers, and less famous people who bomb abortion clinics and so forth. I'm sure no Christians would want to be held up to those examples either.

Well, you are right. We will have to disagree on this one. "Christians like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer (etc) are thoroughly condemned for their actions because our Lord condemns such actions.

Islam's "word of god" does NOT condemn the actions of what's going on in the world, but rather encourages and applauds it. BIG DIFFERENCE. And the practice of taqiyya IS practiced by Sunni jurisprudence, depending on the individual Muslim's circumstances, which is plainly admitted to under the subtitle "Origin" on Wikipedia (which you clearly feel is an accurate and worthwhile source, yet refrain from accepting it as truth if it shows an opposite view).

I rest my case. I hope you will think about it, at least. From what I see in your posts, you are an articulate and thinking person.

 

[calvin]

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[Godspell]

No, I am not kidding you.
Are you aware that some Islamic terrorists claim that their terrorist attacks are revenge for what Christians did in the crusades. Is that what you are proposeing as well?

It seems that you are unaware that the crusades should not be referred to as the “Christian crusades.” Most of the people involved in the crusades were not truly Christians, even though they claimed to be. The name of Christ was abused, misused, and blasphemed by the actions of many of the crusaders. Second, the crusades took place from approximately A.D. 1095 to 1230. Should the unbiblical actions of supposed Christians hundreds of years ago still be held against Christians today?

Most Muslims would also argue that Jihad terrorists are not true Muslims.

With the exception of the Caliphate (and I admit I'm not a Muslim scholar) Muslims speak of "Shariah" which is the perfect divine law, into "Fique" which is the best interpretation of the Shariah. Since the vast majority of Muslims do not hold to the principles propagated by terrorists, it is wholly unfair to apply those principles to the totality of the Islamic faith.

In actuality, the crusades were responses to Muslim invasions on what was once land occupied primarily by Christians. From approximately A.D. 200 to 900, the land of Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Turkey was inhabited primarily by Christians. Once Islam became powerful, Muslims invaded these lands and brutally oppressed, enslaved, deported, and even murdered the Christians living in those lands. In response, the Roman Catholic Church ordered the crusades to reclaim the land the Muslims had taken. Islam is not a religion that can speak from a position of innocence in these matters.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-crusades.html#ixzz3EiSwcNIJ

As I said, Islam has its share of sins. Muslim empires have been brutal and vicious. However, it is wholly unchristian to respond to such brutality with more brutality. The Crusades had a large amount of unnecessary violence, plunder, and massive executions.

Do you think the KKK was a Christian denomination of some kind???

They were a protestant Christian group that were anti-catholic, anti-jewish and especially anti-black. They were also highly nationalistic, but they integrated nationalism, racism and religion into a common creed.

Their burning of crosses were a religious ritual.

 

[Godspell]

The KKK was a political group, not a religious one.
And the Crusades was a response to religious tyranny -- not a group of Christians forcing religion.

They were both. They burned crosses as part of religious worship. I don't believe they were true Christians, but they claimed to be, as do Jihad terrorists claim to be Muslims, but I don't believe they are true Muslims either.

As for the Crusades, I understand your response to them and admittedly the situation was highly complex, and was a response to Muslim aggression. The Holy Land was rightfully controlled by Christians before the Muslims conquered it, but I don't really like it when we justify heinous sins. The crusades involved a lot of unnecessary brutal violence that was undertaken in the name of Christendom. We have no control over what people did in the past, but I don't believe its right to justify it.

The Inquisition was a model taken from the Church in order to seek out residing spies, except 1) the Church never used these methods to torture or kill (and in fact tried to persuade the Spanish monarchs from capital punishment), and 2) even the Spanish monarchs didn't do this torture or killing spree people like to say...the killings were capital punishment on behalf of the monarchs, not the Church. The Church still uses the traditional Inquisition method. If a bishop or priest or even religious educator begins teaching something that is questionable, they call for that person, see if there is anything that needs to be corrected, and if so, they correct it.

With all due respect, this criteria doesn't mesh.

I believe that the torture and execution of heretics is somewhat overblown in contemporary times. I don't think people were arbitrarily tortured and killed. However, let's also not pretend that Church leaders at the time did not condemn the practice. I've heard of a few Eastern Bishops speaking out about the cruelty against heretics, but no one from western Europe.

 

[Ghid]

Okay, so I gather the reason you brought up the Iliad is to support your view that the Bible is fiction. Now I understand.

May I point out that whether or not the Bible or Iliad are fiction is not relevant to the substance of our conversation regarding the percentage rate of violence? So I still don't know what your point is in bringing it up, although I do understand your motive.

I don't recall saying that the Bible is fiction.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

They were both. They burned crosses as part of religious worship. I don't believe they were true Christians, but they claimed to be, as do Jihad terrorists claim to be Muslims, but I don't believe they are true Muslims either.

As for the Crusades, I understand your response to them and admittedly the situation was highly complex, and was a response to Muslim aggression. The Holy Land was rightfully controlled by Christians before the Muslims conquered it, but I don't really like it when we justify heinous sins. The crusades involved a lot of unnecessary brutal violence that was undertaken in the name of Christendom. We have no control over what people did in the past, but I don't believe its right to justify it.



I believe that the torture and execution of heretics is somewhat overblown in contemporary times. I don't think people were arbitrarily tortured and killed. However, let's also not pretend that Church leaders at the time did not condemn the practice. I've heard of a few Eastern Bishops speaking out about the cruelty against heretics, but no one from western Europe.

The KKK thing can be thought as iffy between politics and religion, but religion was often a central part of American politics for centuries, but politics wasn't necessarily a central part of religion, so we have to conclude, even based on their credo, that they were a political effort, not a religious one.

The case with the Inquisition is that while some bishops turned a blind eye, the Vatican itself condemned some of the actions of the Spanish monarchs and even tried to have them reconsider their process of capital punishment (which even then the Church thought was a valid practice). The bishops who condoned what the Spanish monarchs did (which, by the way, wasn't nearly as high a number as people claim) were acting outside of their own faith and even what the active popes were saying. It still happens today where bishops will do the complete opposite of what they are supposed to do. In fact, this sort of hypocrisy is why so many people think the Catholic Church backed Hitler; many bishops pandered to Hitler while Pope Pius XII was saving hundreds of thousands of Jews.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

There's a very, very strange thing when it comes to Christians and Muslims...

If a Christian is hateful, bigoted, and evil, he is a not doing what Christianity teaches. But if a Muslim is peaceful, loving of others, and accepting of others on the grounds that they are still human beings who deserve respect, he is not doing what Islam teaches.

 

[Ghid]

Ghid~ I apologize for thinking you were trying to imply the Bible is not historically accurate when you compared it to the Iliad. PeaceLikeaRiver set me straight that you do, in fact, believe the Bible.

As for the numbers and percentages of violence done in earlier centuries compared to the twentieth century: I will be happy to red0 my research on this if you will require the same of Godspell's statement that earlier centuries were more deadly/violent percentage-wise. You are right to ask because we should not blindly accept people's statements without requiring references of where they got their information.

I do sometimes project a sort of materialist attitude, so maybe you are not to blame. I'm sorry that I left the wrong impression about my faith. Also, I'm Catholic. The Catholic Church uses the idea of genres to interpret the Bible. History is only one genre. Maybe I said something about that.

I think that The Bible and the Iliad do compare in many ways. Both were written by dead white men. Both are full of ideas, which earns them a place on the list of books that everybody should read. Both are about human nature, both fair and fowl. They both have love stories. They both have unspeakable violence. They compare men as equals. Saint Paul says men (and I suppose also women) are equal before God. In the Iliad, Homer, who was a Greek, portrays the Trojans and Greeks as equal in walor. They both have advice for life. In the Iliad during one of the battle scenes, Achilles disarms a Trojan Warrior, who says that Achilles should not kill him because his father will pay a large ransom. Achilles says something like, "You idiot. Your daddy's money won't help you this time." And he cuts off the man's head. I go to school with boys very must like that Trojan warrior. The Bible is the Word of God. The Greeks never believed that a god wrote The Iliad, but The Iliad and the other stories about the Trojan War are as close to that as any Greek literature ever became.

I will be really surprised to learn if anyone can measure one way or another if one century is more violent then another. I wonder how anyone could find any accurate information. I read a book recently, Why the West Rules -- For Now. The author, Ian Morris, attempts to compare the productive capacity of the eastern most and western most societies. I suppose if productive capacity can be measured maybe violence can be measured at least in local areas.

 

[Godspell]

I don't recall saying that the Bible is fiction.

You did not.

 

[Godspell]

The KKK thing can be thought as iffy between politics and religion, but religion was often a central part of American politics for centuries, but politics wasn't necessarily a central part of religion, so we have to conclude, even based on their credo, that they were a political effort, not a religious one.

The case with the Inquisition is that while some bishops turned a blind eye, the Vatican itself condemned some of the actions of the Spanish monarchs and even tried to have them reconsider their process of capital punishment (which even then the Church thought was a valid practice). The bishops who condoned what the Spanish monarchs did (which, by the way, wasn't nearly as high a number as people claim) were acting outside of their own faith and even what the active popes were saying. It still happens today where bishops will do the complete opposite of what they are supposed to do. In fact, this sort of hypocrisy is why so many people think the Catholic Church backed Hitler; many bishops pandered to Hitler while Pope Pius XII was saving hundreds of thousands of Jews.

Whatever you want to call them, I think its fairly clear that they used religion to justify their actions. Many "Christians" used biblical accounts of the Hebrew constitution to defend slavery's compatibility with scripture. While it doesn't say anything about Christianity as a whole, it does show that if Christians can misrepresent the message Christ, Muslims can misrepresent the message of Islam, and in either case I believe they prepare a very hot punishment for themselves.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Whatever you want to call them, I think its fairly clear that they used religion to justify their actions. Many "Christians" used biblical accounts of the Hebrew constitution to defend slavery's compatibility with scripture. While it doesn't say anything about Christianity as a whole, it does show that if Christians can misrepresent the message Christ, Muslims can misrepresent the message of Islam, and in either case I believe they prepare a very hot punishment for themselves.

There's truth to that, definitely. In fact, practically every effort will use religion to justify its cause.

 

[KingJ]

What about the verses that allow men to take child-brides and consummate their marriages before the bride turns 9 yrs old? And what about the verses that tell men to beat their wives if they do not obey their husband? The science promoted in the Koran is notoriously inaccurate, as well as the creation accounts given by Muhammad.

I don't know, KingJ. I am troubled with your statement that Islam is a good religion. Are you saying that if a Muslim accepts Jesus into their heart but continue on in the Muslim faith, that they will go to Heaven, if they don't observe the violent mandates in their Koran?

The child brides and treatment of woman should have been an exclusion too in my statement. I simply meant good as in 'god fearing'...dressing modestly, praying often and so on. My mind was stuck on decapitations and cutting off fingertips.

Thanks for making me feel sick this morning. Child brides...

 

[calvin]

Question:

Why are rape victims often punished by Islamic courts as adulterers?


Summary Answer: Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/002-rape_adultery.htm
Those who are defending Islam are kidding...right?
All you need is four rapists and what chance has a girl got?

 

[C1oudwatch3r]

I do sometimes project a sort of materialist attitude, so maybe you are not to blame. I'm sorry that I left the wrong impression about my faith. Also, I'm Catholic. The Catholic Church uses the idea of genres to interpret the Bible. History is only one genre. Maybe I said something about that.

I think that The Bible and the Iliad do compare in many ways. Both were written by dead white men. Both are full of ideas, which earns them a place on the list of books that everybody should read. Both are about human nature, both fair and fowl. They both have love stories. They both have unspeakable violence. They compare men as equals. Saint Paul says men (and I suppose also women) are equal before God. In the Iliad, Homer, who was a Greek, portrays the Trojans and Greeks as equal in walor. They both have advice for life. In the Iliad during one of the battle scenes, Achilles disarms a Trojan Warrior, who says that Achilles should not kill him because his father will pay a large ransom. Achilles says something like, "You idiot. Your daddy's money won't help you this time." And he cuts off the man's head. I go to school with boys very must like that Trojan warrior. The Bible is the Word of God. The Greeks never believed that a god wrote The Iliad, but The Iliad and the other stories about the Trojan War are as close to that as any Greek literature ever became.

I will be really surprised to learn if anyone can measure one way or another if one century is more violent then another. I wonder how anyone could find any accurate information. I read a book recently, Why the West Rules -- For Now. The author, Ian Morris, attempts to compare the productive capacity of the eastern most and western most societies. I suppose if productive capacity can be measured maybe violence can be measured at least in local areas.

 

[C1oudwatch3r]

It is dangerous to deny a reality because it is discomforting.

 

[Major]

There's a very, very strange thing when it comes to Christians and Muslims...

If a Christian is hateful, bigoted, and evil, he is a not doing what Christianity teaches. But if a Muslim is peaceful, loving of others, and accepting of others on the grounds that they are still human beings who deserve respect, he is not doing what Islam teaches.

Now THAT is a profound truth which is proved every day. We see it right here on CFS as well. Thanks Larry for putting the out there!!!

 

[Major]

I really couldn't answer that, but everything I read online indicates that most of the Muslims abhor what is going on. Maybe we're looking in different places though. I don't say this to stick up for Muslims, more to point out that no one likes having their faith misrepresented by radicals.

The fact is that your words do seem to say that you are sticking up for Muslims. That is my observation and I am sure you will not agree.

I have no idea who you are speaking to when you say......."radicals".

What I see on CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, The Atlanta Herald, Orlando Sentinel and all the other news outlets is NOT Muslims abhorring what is going on in their own country.

I have no idea what you are reading or observing but I have seen innocent people having their head cut off and flags wave in Gaza City.
Please go to this web site and see what is actually going on......
https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...ims+celebrate+americans+killed+in+afghanistan