I don't expect anyone to believe me, but I did a ten-year study on this and Jesus the Christ is born, 15 Tishri 3755 (8 October 7 BC). You can read it at http://www.abdicate.net/book.aspx
Are Holiday's Really Holy Day's?
- Thread starter liz.
- Start date
Right Roads... today the seculars have used our Christmas to make it a time of mass consumerism and turning it into a circus, making it a time not just for us but for those that have no love for our Lord. Stores take our money and mass advertise but will not even recognize it is Christmas as to not offend non Christians... In Italy Christmas is all about Christ, getting together with family, praying and going to mass at midnight... no gifts exchanged, that was done two weeks after. During the time of Christmas we would all work together to build the village of Bethlehem and the stable of where the Blessed Mother gave birth, baby Jesus would be placed in the manger after mass . Maybe ALL Christians should fight back and say we refuse to shop before Christmas for gift and let us get back to our worship of our Lord on that day as it was intended and as it was always done.
It would be interesting to know how you did it, i don't dispute your validity especially since you spent that much time on it and i see you wrote a book on it...
Your community coming together to celebrate Christmas sounds really beautiful. I don't think there's anything inherently sinful about exchanging gifts, but I don't think it's right if we as Christians seek gratification in our lives through what consumerism claims to offer, and yes, I totally agree, companies are guilty of taking advantage of people whenever they have the opportunity to.
I think the most important thing we can learn from Col 2 is to avoid setting up any particular universal "rule" about things like holidays, so for me, I try not to look at it as what all Christians "should" do. It's more about what I choose to do, knowing why I choose to do it, and whether or not I have the right to judge another Christian for what they're doing that isn't sin. Some Christians don't participate in Christmas celebrations because they feel they don't need a particular day set aside to remember Christ's birth, but they want to remember that equally every day! Their heart is in the right place, and they're not sinning, so I shouldn't insist that that person is doing anything wrong either. (Except they're missing out on an awesome Aussie Christmas bbq and pavlova, and they're welcome to come join me for dinner if they want.) Agreed?
I think it's great you want to celebrate Jesus birth. God doesn't tell you, you can't.
Regarding your story I think it's great your friend became a Christian and wanted to "drum for Jesus".
To me the difference is this. The man is "drumming for Jesus" now, hes praising and worshiping Jesus with his drum.
How do you praise and worship God with your Christmas tree?
Well, I don't put up a tree, but if someone tells me the tree is part of the way they praise/celebrate, I'm inclined to not tell them they're doing the wrong thing. My guess is: decorating is a standard way of celebrating. How do I celebrate my friend's birthday? Decorate a room with balloons, ribbons, whatever. I can see how someone would want to involve decorations in their worship, and if that's where their heart is, I don't see what the problem is. If it bothers your conscience to put up a tree, then you're absolutely right in seeking new traditions for yourself and your own family, if you want a tradition at all. If someone decorates a tree with a clean conscience, it's not my place to insist that they are sinning.
What about Deuteronomy 12:29-32?
29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.
29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.
The Prophet Jeremiah starts out in saying in Jeremiah 10....." Learn not the way of the hesthen" So he is saying don' t partake of this foolishness. Since Jeremiah was a major prophet of God we must assume what he said came directly in Spirit to him from The Lord. Don' t get involved with any of it I beleive.I've heard more than one person quote that same reference in Jeremiah to argue that we shouldn't put wooden crosses up in churches. What are your thoughts on that?
My thoughts are: those verses are demystifying idol worship. These verses are there to say (paraphrase), "How can an idol have any power? A human cuts down the tree. A human carves it, decorates it, hangs it. So don't fear them, they don't have any real power, they're just things made by people. All of this work and their worship is worthless and in vain, because they worship nothing. God is the only God with any real power." Read the whole chapter up to v10. Jeremiah is not saying that it's forever wrong to decorate a cut-down tree, since someone once used a cut-down tree for idolatry. That would be like saying we can never use nuclear energy to power reactors, because someone once used it to bomb civilian cities.
So the "ways of nations" are not the particularities of a festival or whatever, the "ways of nations" are actually worshiping something that cannot save them. In this sense, national holidays like the 4th of July can be more of a participation in the "ways of nations" if a person puts their trust in and love for their nation before their trust in and love for God. Can't patriotic nationalism end up being idolatry in a person's life? There are many ways that Christians today do participate in the ways of nations, and those are the things that really need to be addressed.
So when you say, "Celebrating his birthday unto December 25 is a pagan holiday celebrating The a Winter Festival with lights, trees, ornaments," I would say, a pagan holiday was once celebrated on Dec 25. Now Dec 25 is a ubiquitous homage to mass consumerism, and certainly, that particular "way of nations" is something Christians should be very wary of in their lives. But people generally get a week or two off work, and it's common to spend time with family. So for some Christians, it's a convenient time for them to get together and celebrate the fact that Jesus was born as our Messiah, even though they know that's not the actual day He was born, and if they choose to do that, they are in no way whatsoever "learning the ways of the nations." So let's talk to Christians about purging "ways of nations" like gratification through consumerism from their lives, not worrying so much about whether or not they are decorating a tree once a year, yes?
Eccellent!! Thank You..God Bless You!!
Yes, this is one of the verses my Christian friends on the native reserve I lived on used to show that no Christian can use drums in church to worship God, because it was one of the ways "these nations served their gods," therefore it is an "abomination to which the Lord hates." What are your thoughts on that?
Never heard of such a thing. We can worship The Lord with any musical instrument.
In our Church we have A grand piano, Electric Guitars, Organ, Full set of drums, One brother even plays a harmonica sometimes.
What do you think of the situation I described on the native reserve? Should I call up my friends and tell them they're actually not allowed to use drums anymore? Should i also go to my church and tell them we can't use drums either, because it is "the way of the heathen?" How many things are the "way of the heathen?" Anything that wasn't derived from ancient Hebrew culture? How do we know if a thing is the "way of the heathen" or not? Should we also take crosses down out of churches if they meet the process described in Jeremiah 10:3-4? How do you think Col 2:16-23 applies?
Even musical instruments that have been used by "the heathen" to "serve their gods"?
There are verses in Psalms which tell us it is OK to worship God with Musical Instruments...
Psalms 150...Trumpets...Psaltry and harp...Stringed Instruments, Cymbals...
Even musical instruments that have been used by "the heathen" to "serve their gods"? What would your interpretation of Deuteronomy 12:29-32 say about that? "You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way"
You seem to be attempting to make a case that if someone has used anything to worship a false god, that thing can never be used by anyone ever again for anything else.
Huh? Read what I actually told you. I was saying it' s OK to use Musical Instruments to worship God. I even gave you Psalm 150 to prove it..
I would say that instruments are different because they are general and can be used for anything. Christmas existed to celebrate a pagan god's birthday. This was a preexisting holiday. I just think of it this way... how offensive is it to God for people to celebrate this pagan holiday and then later cover it up with Christianity and say it's for Him? He knows it existed before and why. He knows people at the time just wanted to continue doing it, regardless. He knows it wasn't originally for Him. Does this offend Him?
These are questions I have been asking myself as I try to decide if it's okay or not. We've always celebrated, but the more I hear, the less I want to.
These are questions I have been asking myself as I try to decide if it's okay or not. We've always celebrated, but the more I hear, the less I want to.
I know what you are saying, Ricko, that's fine. The point I'm (attempting
) to demonstrate is that Deut 12 doesn't need to say "You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way... except for in the case of musical instruments." This is because "that way" means "things that are an abomination" inherently, like burning children, which is what that verse mentions. The fact that a person once used something to worship a false god does not change the inherent meaning of that thing. The inherent meaning of a tree is simply that it's a created thing. That's it. A pagan who once worshiped it does not get to forever alter its inherent meaning.In the case of my friend, he's free to use a drum, because the pagan practice was the actual worshiping of false gods, not drumming. He can use a drum because there's nothing inherently wrong with drumming, not because Psalm 150 gives him some "permission" that trumps Deut 12. The pagan practice warned about in Jeremiah is the actual worshiping of false gods, not decorating cut wood. So we can decorate a piece of cut wood if we want to, because there's nothing inherently wrong with decorating things. It's no more a sin to decorate a tree in your home than it is to hang a wooden cross in your church (again, some Christians believe that Jeremiah 10:3-4 means we cannot hang wooden crosses in our churches, since crosses fit the description there as easily as a Christmas tree could!). We should be focusing purging things from our lives that the Lord actually considers to be "abominations," my brother! Let's focus on purging the things that really are sin, and promote things that really are good. Col 2:16-23.
I'd say trees are pretty general, and can be used for anything, and so can days be. Trees are created by God, days are created by God. A pagan who once worshiped a tree on a day does not get to forever claim the meaning of trees or days.
I do not think this is an issue of whether or not it's universally "okay or not." It's more like the meat sacrificed to idols: check out that discussion in 1 Cor 8. If it bothers your conscience to participate in Christmas, then you shouldn't do it.
1 Cor 8:
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
Whether or not decorating a Christmas tree is inherently idol worship is the same discussion as whether or not eating meat sacrificed for idols is inherently idol worship. We "know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world... However not all men have this knowledge..." God knows the intention behind the sacrifice of that meat, but He isn't offended when we eat it in a clean conscience, since we know that "there is no such thing as an idol in the world." So it's a matter of personal conscience, wouldn't you say?