Are Women Pastors Biblical???

Musicmaster said:
I don't understand throwing in the red herring of "total authority over the flock" and such. I never said anything at all to that effect. I only addressed doctrinal authority in teaching. Yes, there are some "pastors" who lord it over their following, and elder groups that lord over their followers, but I never gave a whisper of approval for such. There are many good pastors, and there are bad ones. There are good elders, and there are bad ones.

But, that's ok. I agreed with you that the organizational structure is man-made, and that doesn't seem to sink in, so I'll back out of this peacefully.

Have a blessed one.

MM
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Hi MM,

I was responding to this point you made. Sorry I wasn`t clearer and seemed like a red herring.

That would be like me pointing at the hand full of women who led as doctrinal authorities, and did little more than create a cultic branch or total departure of the varying types we can point at today. Not all women would mislead.

Then my thoughts on this statement you made. I don`t think I have ever not recognised the offices of Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, teachers & Evangelists, elders, deacons, helps, administrations, & prophecy, healings, miracles, discernment, wisdom, etc etc. Sorry if I gave that impression. I think I would have been referring that each part in the Body of Christ has a gift of Christ and is needed by all to be recognized, appreciated and received.

Referencing the unity and mutual submission as the mechanism for there being no distinctions in function within the Church is a fallacious over-application of that principle, being forced upon all other stand-alone principles as the chief, governing definition.

I see that you and most of us understand about man`s organisations, (& I have received much when I was a part of that). Yet I do perceive that the general thought about this topic `Are women pastors biblical?` is seen in the context of man`s organisation and NOT the Body of Christ. That I think was the balance I was trying to present.

Marilyn.
 
Marilyn C said:
Yet I do perceive that the general thought about this topic `Are women pastors biblical?` is seen in the context of man`s organisation and NOT the Body of Christ. That I think was the balance I was trying to present.
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Perhaps that is the hitch. In the 'Body of Christ' there is neither male or female, slave/free Jew/Gentile etc.. But this side of eternity where we have the local churches, Paul, through the Holy Spirit set up certain guidelines which include distinction of function as outlined in the letters to the Corinthians, Timothy and Titus.
 
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crossnote said:
Perhaps that is the hitch. In the 'Body of Christ' there is neither male or female, slave/free Jew/Gentile etc.. But this side of eternity where we have the local churches, Paul, through the Holy Spirit set up certain guidelines which include distinction of function as outlined in the letters to Timothy and Titus.
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I actually meant other groups functioning but not in the organisation model.

Yes details have been written for men, however if you see a woman shepherding others, teaching, and guiding them in the ways of the Lord, would you tell her to `stop?`
 
I think it could be profitable to discuss what we see as the Pastor/Shepherd office/function.

Firstly we all know that the Lord is the Good Shepherd. He guides, cares for, comforts and corrects us all individually. It is from Him that people are gifted to function as a Shepherd.

Then In God`s word I see Paul, Silvanus and Timothy functioning as Shepherd/Pastors. They disciple the believers at Thessalonica. They worked among them as a `nursing mother,` and as a `father does his own children,` exhorting, comforting and charging them to live a life worthy of God. (1 Thess. 1: 1, 2: 7 & 11 & 12)

Any more examples?
 
We all have a calling and place to be in the church. Everyone is different and God made us that way. I really don't mind where I God places me. The body will not work as God wishes it to if one member is missing. The body can't see where it is going if the eyes are missing, the body will not hear God if the ears refuse to listen. Where will it go if it has no legs? How can it give love and care if the heart has died?
Personally I believe men should be the pastors and elders.en and women are made up differently. Eve was deceived, perhaps Adam should have guided her better, or perhaps she did not listen to him properly. They were both wrong. I think we, as women, should be very wary of being deceived.
I remember a pastor giving a sermon on a similar topic. He said that wherever God has placed us we should not wish for what we would regard as a higher position in the body, because every position is equally important and needed . If God wants us to do something else He will lead us there. We have to be sure it is God leading us though. We have to ask Him if it is God's will and wait for the answer.
I have never felt comfortable at a service led by a woman. We are free to teach children and younger women. Both those things are extremely important and rewarding.
Obedience and not judging are high up the ladder, I think.
That is why we should search our heart and ask ourselves is it God that wants this lor is it ne? Then it is between me and God.
 
Marilyn C said:
We don`t ignore the English translations but as those who would `feed the flock,` we need to be aware that the English is limited and we need to explain that the original Greek has different meanings than what we can presume by the English.
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I do agree to a point which is why I posted the literal Greek for your consideration on the subject in question.
 
Marilyn C said:
I don`t see anyone as having the total authority over the flock. Scripture always presents a plural leadership.

Imperfections of character, yes, that is why those mature give grace and assistance to the weaker ones. And the other imperfection involves us all coming to maturity of the knowledge of Christ, (the truth). (Eph. 4: 13) That is why we see the names of the denominations as to the truth that was clarified and then contained. However the Holy Spirit has swept across all denominations and brought the great truths of the Lord that is bringing us all to the unity of the faith....(Eph. 4: 13)
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I agree to a point. If you are saying that leadership was done by a plurality of ELDERS, then yes. I agree.

In the New Testament, elders were older men who represented the people and who exercised a certain amount of authority over them. Existing at least as far back as the time of Moses, they were the governing foundation of different groups in the Bible.
Elders were the first ones told, by Moses, about God's plan to free the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 3:16). The Old Testament elders asked the prophet Samuel to place a human king (instead of God) over all the people (1Samuel 8:5).

The local church is not only an intimate, loving family of redeemed brothers and sisters, it is a non-clerical family. Unlike Israel, which was divided into sacred priestly members and lay members, the first-century, Christian church was a people’s movement. The distinguishing mark of Christianity was not found in a clerical hierarchy but in the fact that God’s Spirit came to dwell within ordinary, common people and that through them the Spirit manifested Jesus’ life to the believing community and the world.

It is an immensely profound truth that no special priestly or clerical class that is distinct from the whole people of God appears in the New Testament. Under the new covenant ratified by the blood of Christ, every member of the church of Jesus Christ is a holy saint, a royal priest, and a Spirit-gifted member of the body of Christ.
 
Cosia said:
We all have a calling and place to be in the church. Everyone is different and God made us that way. I really don't mind where I God places me. The body will not work as God wishes it to if one member is missing. The body can't see where it is going if the eyes are missing, the body will not hear God if the ears refuse to listen. Where will it go if it has no legs? How can it give love and care if the heart has died?
Personally I believe men should be the pastors and elders.en and women are made up differently. Eve was deceived, perhaps Adam should have guided her better, or perhaps she did not listen to him properly. They were both wrong. I think we, as women, should be very wary of being deceived.
I remember a pastor giving a sermon on a similar topic. He said that wherever God has placed us we should not wish for what we would regard as a higher position in the body, because every position is equally important and needed . If God wants us to do something else He will lead us there. We have to be sure it is God leading us though. We have to ask Him if it is God's will and wait for the answer.
I have never felt comfortable at a service led by a woman. We are free to teach children and younger women. Both those things are extremely important and rewarding.
Obedience and not judging are high up the ladder, I think.
That is why we should search our heart and ask ourselves is it God that wants this lor is it ne? Then it is between me and God.
Click to expand...

Correct and I agree completely!
 
Marilyn C said:
So when Jesus said to Peter `Do you love me more than these?` (John 21: 15) What sort of `love` was that, Major? Sexual, friendship, godly etc And when Jesus said a third time to Peter, `Do you love me?` is it the same `love` as the first time? (John 21: 17)

The same English word but with different meanings in Greek.

That is the same as the English words `silent,` and `speak.` One word in English but different meanings in Greek. Thus we need to look up the Greek to see what God actually meant.
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No. Each word LOVE had a different designation. That knowledge comes from the correct teaching of the Bible and not from knowing the Greek.

As a teenager I leaned that in Sunday Bible School and later when I studied Greek, it was confirmed.

The same thing could be said about many words and "context" dictates the meaning.

"cool" is one that come to mind. Could mean someone is really good or really cold.
 
Marilyn C said:
Hi MM,

I was responding to this point you made. Sorry I wasn`t clearer and seemed like a red herring.

That would be like me pointing at the hand full of women who led as doctrinal authorities, and did little more than create a cultic branch or total departure of the varying types we can point at today. Not all women would mislead.

Then my thoughts on this statement you made. I don`t think I have ever not recognised the offices of Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, teachers & Evangelists, elders, deacons, helps, administrations, & prophecy, healings, miracles, discernment, wisdom, etc etc. Sorry if I gave that impression. I think I would have been referring that each part in the Body of Christ has a gift of Christ and is needed by all to be recognized, appreciated and received.

Referencing the unity and mutual submission as the mechanism for there being no distinctions in function within the Church is a fallacious over-application of that principle, being forced upon all other stand-alone principles as the chief, governing definition.

I see that you and most of us understand about man`s organisations, (& I have received much when I was a part of that). Yet I do perceive that the general thought about this topic `Are women pastors biblical?` is seen in the context of man`s organisation and NOT the Body of Christ. That I think was the balance I was trying to present.

Marilyn.
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Hmm. Suffice it to say that the institutional model is of no consequence to what the Lord has established, which is that the men are to be the ones who stand in the place of doctrinal teaching authority in the Church.

Here's the thing, in relation to your emphasis on the institutional model...the seats in those places are populated by both the Church and those who are outside the Church (not saved, not reborn). It's a mix, and there's no place on this planet any group will be able to escape that reality, whether it's home church models, cell models, or even communes. This world is filled with sin and the unsaved. While driving along the roadway to the house just yesterday, I looked at the people in their cars and long the streets, with their tattoos and fascination with whatever pleasures they can squeeze out of this world. The indifference and lostness screamed at me, and there's no escaping it.

John MacArthur said it well when he observed a couple Sundays ago that we're living in times where the lines of distinction between the saved and unsaved are becoming more and more apparent and distinguishable. As the world's hate for Christ continues to boil at higher levels of heat, the wicked more readily separate themselves out from the righteous. The tares stand out from the wheat, and they don't even realize that the harvest is soon upon them when they will be plucked up and cast into the fire by the hands of the righteous angels.

I want to reach as many of them as I can, and whomsoever the Lord chooses to go out there and minister the Gospel to those who will listen, then fantastic. The giftings, the talent...all that the Lord gives for the edification of the Church will never stand in violation of His prime directive for the men He establishes as His doctrinal teaching authorities within His Church. The Church populates churches, malls, forests, deserts, mountains, valleys and canyons. Women serve in many a wonderful function along beside men, and some functions that only the women are gifted and empowered to do. I don't want to usurp those functions, and yet the enemy of our souls certainly is busy pushing many women to demand doctrinal teaching authority within the Church, even when it involves men sitting under their teaching authority. Some things are just wrong, no matter how hard one may kick against that boulder.

So I see it as an exercise in futility to try and set apart the institutional model as being any less under the directives and commands of the Lord, even though they are man-made in their modeling. Doctrine is taught in those places, no matter what man does it, whether he has a diploma or not. I agree that having a diploma from some Theological Cemetery isn't what truly qualifies a man as one who stands in the place of doctrinal teaching authority. What I would be careful about is assuming who among them is unqualified simply because of the institutional structure or some other inferior measure for whom the Lord chooses to use for His purposes. There are giants among them, and trying to put them down only shines a light upon the scamps out there who think themselves empowered to criticize anything and everything they don't happen to like. If the Lord could use pharaoh, He can certainly use any one at any time of His choosing.

Any debate along that line needs to be taken up with the Lord who made the rules as they are, regardless of my beliefs, your beliefs, or anyone's beliefs who peruse these threads. As I had said before, it matters not at all what any of us believes. What matters is our desire to be obedient unto the Lord in ALL things, and to do it.

Love you all.

MM
 
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Musicmaster said:
John MacArthur said it will when he observed a couple Sundays ago that we're living in times where the lines of distinction between the saved and unsaved are becoming more and more apparent and distinguishable. As the world's hate for Christ continues to boil at higher levels of heat, the wicked more readily separate themselves out from the righteous. The tares stand out from the wheat, and they don't even realize that the harvest is soon upon them when they will be plucked up and cast into the fire by the hands of the righteous angels.
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the wheat and the tares are being separated
 
Musicmaster said:
As you were writing this, I was making some corrections and edits to that post, in case you didn't see them.

MM
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its all good i am not a pro woman pastor advocate . what i am is if they are in a denom /church allows woman pastors so be it let them operate with in that realm . their works will be tested by Fire if its not of God it will perish burn up. as i stated i have dear friend i just about consider as a sister {blood kin } full pledged Pentecostal woman preacher. yes i have went and listened to her

.a church i was pastor of i asked her to speak on mothers day. :eek: . she did a good job but never tried to preach. i have even listened to Joyce myers even though i am not a fan of hers. on the way home from work couple days a week a woman comes on who preaches. i listen to her. at times she brings out good stuff. i know how to separate the meat from the Bones.

its out of my hands God will do the testing not me
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. Any debate along that line needs to be taken up with the Lord who made the rules as they are, regardless of my beliefs, your beliefs, or anyone's beliefs who peruse these threads. As I had said before, it matters not at all what any of us believes. What matters is our desire to be obedient unto the Lord in ALL things, and to do it. i whole heartedly agree %100
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forgiven61 said:
its all good i am not a pro woman pastor advocate . what i am is if they are in a denom /church allows woman pastors so be it let them operate with in that realm . their works will be tested by Fire if its not of God it will perish burn up. as i stated i have dear friend i just about consider as a sister {blood kin } full pledged Pentecostal woman preacher. yes i have went and listened to her

.a church i was pastor of i asked her to speak on mothers day. :eek: . she did a good job but never tried to preach. i have even listened to Joyce myers even though i am not a fan of hers. on the way home from work couple days a week a woman comes on who preaches. i listen to her. at times she brings out good stuff. i know how to separate the meat from the Bones.
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Likewise, my experience with women teachers/pastors has been in the Pentecostal and very liberal groupings. With me, it's not about ability. They are just as capable of teaching as men by way of intelligence. Those that I have heard, however, didn't seem to have the depths of the gift of teaching doctrinal authority. It just wasn't there. If asked to explain that...well, it's hard to do so. Perhaps I'm affected by what I know about God's commands through His actions throughout the OT, irrespective of the exception He enacted at that time with a woman judge over Israel. The Lord's actions speak more than loud enough for me, coupled with His commands through His apostles.

So, one might say that thing I can't quite explain is the result of prejudice. Prejudice isn't always a bad thing when it's on the side of absolutes. God's word on this topic is absolute, no matter what anyone believes. Beliefs change, God's word doesn't. It says what it says, and in a manner that any reasonably intelligent person can understand. That's not to say that those who don't see it as we do, because of their having allowed other criteria and reasonings into their thinking to cast doubt upon what's clearly written and commanded. They might even say that those who disagree with them are the ones whose understanding is clouded by other things. This is the tragedy our enemy uses against us all to keep the divisions in place.

Joyce Meyer is fantastic for encouraging women in their struggles, but when she thought to insinuate herself into the place of a doctrinal teacher, that's when I knew her pride was setting in, and it was ugly. I had read in a liberal "Christian" publication a recount of the men who stood up, turned their backs on her at a conference, and then walked out, and how "terrible and disrespectful" that was.

The people behind such publications, and all those readers who allow them to steal away the absolute truths of God's word because such actions violate modern, post modern, and theologically liberal sensibilities, it's a tragic state of affairs the enemy is using against the Church. It's a viral assault worse than the alleged COVID virus to modern man. The CDC still is not able to find even one lab on the face of this earth to admit they have a culture of the alleged COVID-19 virus to be studied for an actual treatment cure, but we in the Church have an inoculation against any and all assaults upon and within the Church body.

So, the call is for each one to choose this day whom you will serve. Each new day involves us making conscious choices as to whom we will serve in each encounter we have throughout each day. They all involve choices: Someone cut you off in traffic...you either get angry, honk your horn, yell and cuss, flip them off, call them names...or you smile, wave a friendly hand, and bless them by living and letting live, and love them in spite of their prideful actions. Whom will you serve?

Self examination is something we tend to avoid. Life gets so busy, with technology consuming our attentions so much. Meditation on God in prayer and study also suffers. So, what matter the most is what the Lord said, not what we want to superimpose upon it to rationalize what we want to believe.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
my experience with women teachers/pastors has been in the Pentecostal and very liberal groupings.
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as far as i know i have never experienced the liberial groups. i ran on to few liberals lol

Joyce Meyer is fantastic for encouraging women in their struggles, but when she thought to insinuate herself into the place of a doctrinal teacher, that's when I knew her pride was setting in, and it was ugly. I had read in a liberal "Christian" publication a recount of the men who stood up, turned their backs on her at a conference, and then walked out, and how "terrible and disrespectful" that was.
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before i took the call to preach i listened to her on the radio got some good word.. her program would come on saying God has something for you to do and you need to do it. at that point i gave in to the call i took faith step .let me tell you its been a ride church people locked horns over who was in control of the service .the first message i ever preached .the former pastor had stepped down that sunday morning. said i should preach that night power play.. honestly i seen so much it is enough to make one throw the towel in.
joyce meyers turned me off when she had plastic surgery . even though i got ordained by the gen baptist . i have always got out fellowshipped with other denoms .
i went to join a presbytery one of the things they asked was had a been a baptist all my life.. i said no sir i was raised Methodist nothing about being saved only a baptist . in fact the umc i was raised in i went back and preached twice in.. it was ye must be born again

i dont do grammar very good lol i speak not write o_O
 
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