Bible Problem

Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
 
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Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
My primary Bible is the NKJV because I personally knew the OT editor for that versión, and he told me a lot about the translation process and methods for the NKJV. I Trust it more than others. That being said I sometimes use other versions (even The Message 😲) for non-study personal reading.
 
My primary Bible is the NKJV because I personally knew the OT editor for that versión, and he told me a lot about the translation process and methods for the NKJV. I Trust it more than others. That being said I sometimes use other versions (even The Message 😲) for non-study personal reading.
The NKJV is ok and retains the entire Word of God, and is very good for reading because of addressing difficult passages; but you can't use a concordance with it to find passages because the concordance usually only uses the King James, as the KJV has been around the longest and is most familiar with scholars producing the concordances.
 
I primarily use two, the KJV and the NASB.

I have been reading and taking notes with the KJV for long enough that I am very comfortable with the occasional dated and culturally specific phrases and words.
I prefer formal equivalent translations and so often cross reference with the NASB when curious about a specific word or phrase.
I also dip into several “Jewish” translations occasionally such as the CJB and TOJB2011, particularly for clarity in OT names and context.
 
Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
My primary Bible is the NKJV because I personally knew the OT editor for that versión, and he told me a lot about the translation process and methods for the NKJV. I Trust it more than others. That being said I sometimes use other versions (even The Message 😲) for non-study personal reading
The NKJV is ok and retains the entire Word of God, and is very good for reading because of addressing difficult passages; but you can't use a concordance with it to find passages because the concordance usually only uses the King James, as the KJV has been around the longest and is most familiar with scholars producing the concordances.
That is a valid observation and possible problem for less experienced Bible students. Personally, when I study, I use the NKJV, Luther's German Bible, Greek & Hebrew concordances, as well as Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. I do thorough conceptual studies, so I'm not bothered by any English concordance limitations.
 
I primarily use two, the KJV and the NASB.

I have been reading and taking notes with the KJV for long enough that I am very comfortable with the occasional dated and culturally specific phrases and words.
I prefer formal equivalent translations and so often cross reference with the NASB when curious about a specific word or phrase.
I also dip into several “Jewish” translations occasionally such as the CJB and TOJB2011, particularly for clarity in OT names and context.
Hi, and thanks for the reply! I can't trust a translation that says "Elhanan killed Goliath" (2Sam 21:19). It is contrary to 1Chron 20:5.
 
Hello netchaplain, BibleLover and blueskies;

I appreciate and respect your thoughts and experiences. I also agree it is a problem that should concern all students of the Bible.

I'd like to share not so much my opinion but my experience of the Bible translations. Most translations are acceptable. While you, BibleLover, blueskies and others are comfortable with the versions and cross references you are studying, I grasp the versions I study and trust.

If we talk about errors in certain translations, The Way was questionable with slants of Scripture when this Book was legally published. Regardless of what I opiniate, others choose and trust this version for their personal study of God's Word.

Just like BibleLover's friend, the OT editor of the NKJV, publishers and the specialized team of Biblical scholars put alot of prayer, research and work into an acceptable translation. They are carefully weighed against the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek be it the literal, dynamic and free versions.

It's a matter of what translation speaks to the student. I know and respect seasoned Bible students who utilize their cross reference of their translation, concordance, Logos Bible software and other sources and have become effective teachers and preachers.

I also know Bible students who study and trust the Message, LB, NEB or NIV and have been very active in their evangelism, sharing the gospel and introducing Christ to them.

God bless you, Bob, and thank you for sharing this topic.
 
Hello netchaplain, BibleLover and blueskies;

I appreciate and respect your thoughts and experiences. I also agree it is a problem that should concern all students of the Bible.

I'd like to share not so much my opinion but my experience of the Bible translations. Most translations are acceptable. While you, BibleLover, blueskies and others are comfortable with the versions and cross references you are studying, I grasp the versions I study and trust.

If we talk about errors in certain translations, The Way was questionable with slants of Scripture when this Book was legally published. Regardless of what I opiniate, others choose and trust this version for their personal study of God's Word.

Just like BibleLover's friend, the OT editor of the NKJV, publishers and the specialized team of Biblical scholars put alot of prayer, research and work into an acceptable translation. They are carefully weighed against the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek be it the literal, dynamic and free versions.

It's a matter of what translation speaks to the student. I know and respect seasoned Bible students who utilize their cross reference of their translation, concordance, Logos Bible software and other sources and have become effective teachers and preachers.

I also know Bible students who study and trust the Message, LB, NEB or NIV and have been very active in their evangelism, sharing the gospel and introducing Christ to them.

God bless you, Bob, and thank you for sharing this topic.
Myself, I can't trust a Bible that says "Elhanan killed Goliath"; nor Bibles that have omitted much of the New Testament. I believe this is well hidden to most Christians.
 
Hi, and thanks for the reply! I can't trust a translation that says "Elhanan killed Goliath" (2Sam 21:19). It is contrary to 1Chron 20:5.
Myself, I can't trust a Bible that says "Elhanan killed Goliath"; nor Bibles that have omitted much of the New Testament. I believe this is well hidden to most Christians.

Hello Bob;

What translation are you referring to in 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicles 20:5?

God bless you, brother.
 
The new King James is not a real King James Bible. It uses other texts than just from the original King James. Some call it a transitional bible to move you towards newer and different bibles. If it wasn’t for Sinaiticus which was never from the 4th- 5th century AD probably from the 19th century than we wouldn’t be having this discussion. As to some monk upon discovery by AlexanderTischendorf burning parchment manuscripts is a lie . Monks don’t burn manuscripts especially parchment, far to valuable. And not only that especially with parchment being animal hide. Just think of the stink that animal parchment would bring upon the entire monastery if burned . All the Sinaiticus ever did was to make a good bed partner for the Vaticanus which has always been seen by Protestants as a far later date than claimed and certainly never trusted until recent times. But it certainly allowed heretics like Westcott & Hort to do their deed in corrupting the word of God.
 
I value all the opinions here.

However, personally, when in doubt, I take all scripture at face value and don’t try to find a work around or discount its divine inspiration.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 
I value all the opinions here.
However, personally, when in doubt I take scripture at face value and don’t try to find a work around.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Well considering how some translations are continually tinkering with scripture and removing scripture from the bible just like our disappearing rain forests. Might pay to keep a few of the older trusted names on hand. Who knows 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 might read something quite different a decade from now.
 
Hello Bob;

What translation are you referring to in 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicles 20:5?

God bless you, brother.
1Chron 20:5 is the correct reading and it can be noticed that there are no words italicized, which means it's all in the Greek manuscript. Many do not know that the KJV translators added words which were not in the manuscripts to avoid being accused of adding to the Word. For example, the phrase "the brother of" is italicized showing that no manuscripts contain these words, and the scribes attribute the error to the fact that they were just careless at this point.

All the modern translations except the NKJV, and NIV. But the NIV is the only one that just recently (last decade) corrected the error; and the NIV also has all the same problems as the other translations with hundreds of omitted Scripture; and many changes to the texts (interpolations). Here is a good example: Phl 2:6 correctly reads, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Here it is saying that Jesus did not think it to be stealing from God to be equal with Him, which He is in essence. The modern version bereft their readers with, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage." This reading is not saying the same thing as the correct reading; and there are hundreds of these error (they interpolate and transpose many passages to say what they want it to say.)
 
1Chron 20:5 is the correct reading and it can be noticed that there are no words italicized, which means it's all in the Greek manuscript. Many do not know that the KJV translators added words which were not in the manuscripts to avoid being accused of adding to the Word. For example, the phrase "the brother of" is italicized showing that no manuscripts contain these words, and the scribes attribute the error to the fact that they were just careless at this point.

All the modern translations except the NKJV, and NIV. But the NIV is the only one that just recently (last decade) corrected the error; and the NIV also has all the same problems as the other translations with hundreds of omitted Scripture; and many changes to the texts (interpolations). Here is a good example: Phl 2:6 correctly reads, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Here it is saying that Jesus did not think it to be stealing from God to be equal with Him, which He is in essence. The modern version bereft their readers with, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage." This reading is not saying the same thing as the correct reading; and there are hundreds of these error (they interpolate and transpose many passages to say what they want it to say.)
Keil and Delitzsch has a good discussion explaining why the Hebrew text of the two passages disagree.

Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the debates Dr. James Price had with Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger?
 
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Keil and Delitzsch has a good discussion explaining why the Hebrew text of the two passages disagree.

Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the debates Dr. James Price had with Peter Ruckman and Gail Riplinger?
BTW: Martin Luther, in his German translation from the same Hebrew text as used by the KJV, translated 2 Sam 21:19 as Goliath being the one killed.
 
The new King James is not a real King James Bible. It uses other texts than just from the original King James. Some call it a transitional bible to move you towards newer and different bibles. If it wasn’t for Sinaiticus which was never from the 4th- 5th century AD probably from the 19th century than we wouldn’t be having this discussion. As to some monk upon discovery by AlexanderTischendorf burning parchment manuscripts is a lie . Monks don’t burn manuscripts especially parchment, far to valuable. And not only that especially with parchment being animal hide. Just think of the stink that animal parchment would bring upon the entire monastery if burned . All the Sinaiticus ever did was to make a good bed partner for the Vaticanus which has always been seen by Protestants as a far later date than claimed and certainly never trusted until recent times. But it certainly allowed heretics like Westcott & Hort to do their deed in corrupting the word of God.

Hello Prim90;

The KJV and NKJV are both literal, or formal equivalence which means that these translations remain as close to the Hebrew and Greek. The "transitional Bible" in this case the NKJV basically eliminates thee, thine, thou and thy are replaced with the current pronouns used today.

The discussion and commentaries will find other constructive reasons and arguments why the NKJV transition from the original King James, the same with all translations.

As far as the Greek Sinaiticus I don't know the significance why this would eliminate this discussion, however, the rest that you reference is good commentary. God bless you, sister.


1Chron 20:5 is the correct reading and it can be noticed that there are no words italicized, which means it's all in the Greek manuscript. Many do not know that the KJV translators added words which were not in the manuscripts to avoid being accused of adding to the Word. For example, the phrase "the brother of" is italicized showing that no manuscripts contain these words, and the scribes attribute the error to the fact that they were just careless at this point. All the modern translations except the NKJV, and NIV. But the NIV is the only one that just recently (last decade) corrected the error; and the NIV also has all the same problems as the other translations with hundreds of omitted Scripture; and many changes to the texts (interpolations). Here is a good example: Phl 2:6 correctly reads, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." Here it is saying that Jesus did not think it to be stealing from God to be equal with Him, which He is in essence. The modern version bereft their readers with, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage." This reading is not saying the same thing as the correct reading; and there are hundreds of these error (they interpolate and transpose many passages to say what they want it to say.)

Hello netchaplain;

I'm still not clear. Are you referring to the incorrect reading in 2 Samuel 21:19 being the KJV, and 1 Chronicles 20:5 being correct but from what translation?

It's ironic that you pointed to the imperfections of the KJV (added words) because most KJV students do not critique their preferred translation while the NIV was commended for correcting errors in Scripture. The NIV has been long criticised for it's English version of the original Hebrew and Greek. One pastor I knew suggested the NIV was demonic. Another Christian woman said the NIV omitted Scripture in support of accepted same gender relationships.

Your constructive reading of 2 Samuel 21:19 contrasting 1 Chronicles 20:5 and the italicized phrase of "the brother of" is what we call a minor note in the historical context of the Old and New Testaments.

For example, if Genesis 1:1 read, In the beginning "a God" created the heavens and earth would be considered an erroneous (major note) because there is only one God, not a God. In the argument of 1 Chronicles 20:5 and 2 Samuel 21:19 the issue of the brother being italicized is a minor note.

Every translation has it's human critics and many students will dismiss other Bible translations over minor notes.

I agree the Bible will have it's errors and this is one of the important reasons translations are revised.

God bless
you, Bob.
 
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