Caesar’s Laws
- Thread starter SparkleEyes
- Start date
I am careful, but when I copy, it's for me. I quit teaching when I left the old church. It's just that sometimes, it's not clear to me what can and can't be copied; sometimes I question myself.
But we can try. Sometimes, I speed, for example, but that's why G-d made that little speed button on my car.While we sort out what is right and wrong, let me add this also
There is no one who is going to be able to live so carefully to not break these laws.. Same way we cannot keep up God's moral commandments, we cannot keep with the social commands of the local laws..
Before I ask a few more questions, let me say it's obvious you have some passion here and I absolutely respect that there is something in taxation that seems to offend your conscience. Since you brought it to the public forum, I'm just looking for more clarity. Say the word and we'll drop it or move to PM.
"Governments tend to be corrupt" - People tend to be corrupt. Governments are people. Agreed.
"Jesus was in a pinch at the time he said that" It seems like Jesus was in one pinch or another for much of the record we have of him. But I don't think you're implying Jesus was influenced by stress or pressure, right? You mean he was speaking to a special situation?
"I don't see how it totally applies to every government in every time period." Fair enough. Say Jesus wasn't divinely speaking to future disciples. What about leading by example? Suppose a fellow says "I want to be as Christ-like as I can in everything and this is the only place where I have an example of Christ's posture towards a corrupt government." Is he wrong?
"And I do stand behind the statement that taxation that I don't agree with is theft. If I don't pay it they will put me in jail and take everything I have." Hmm it seems like this could be used as an argument against rule of law in general. "A law I don't agree with is bullying. If I don't keep the law the will put me in jail..." Is it just taxes or government in general that seems to offend your conscience?
Yes, I have no problem with eating animals. Actually, I am thinking about doing it in a few minutes. However, I am against killing or hurting animals just for fun. Also, if we can get the meat from the supermarket, why killing a poor rabbit in the fields? I would understand it if it were a case of necessity, but if it is just for fun it is not justifiable, in my opinion. When I used to go fishing we had to throw back many of our fishes to the river, since they were too small and young to be legally consumed. In principle this sounds great, but the truth is that most of these fishes were heavily wounded by the hooks. They probably lost one of their eyes or even died because of these wounds. So, it wasn't worth doing it..
I believe the problem in the church about laws where they live is that they don't know them. Like when a school declares "GOD" or "JESUS" as unconstitutional, they're wrong and many just accept it. Living in America comes with great responsibilities and we're allowing our liberties to be removed and this isn't what God wants, but we get those in power that put us back on the straight and narrow unless we ignore it (as we are now with the current admin) then we're only going to get some of the same. The other ploy is that these politicians in the name of humanity "give" money away via food stamps, housing, etc, so that they stay in power. That is exactly how Hamas got elected in the Gaza strip, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. It's all Marxism. Hook the population with goodies so you have total control then when you're on the verge of bankruptcy implement martial law... it's all a slippery slope. There's no "first" step and there's no "last straw" it just ends up there. I do believe America's fall began no later than 1963 when the beginning of the outlaw of school prayer. Within 8 years, we dumped the Gold Standard and within 10 years, we had abortion.As believers we are told to render onto Caesar what is Caesars. Well, what about his laws? I am thinking the same logic applies to the laws of your local jurisdiction and country. We are supposed to obey them regardless of how we feel or if we think they should apply to us. That goes for speed limits, road closed except for local traffic signs, stop signs, open burning under certain conditions, no street parking in the winter (to allow for snow removal), obtaining a building permit and following building codes and the like.
I will admit that I don’t always follow all of the laws – I drive faster than the posted speed limit sometimes, I have been known to roll through a stop sign…I know I am not above the law. If I get pulled over by the police, I take whatever he/she gives me without getting irate.
I do know, however, that some people think they are above the law. They think that rules apply to everyone else but them and they get angry when they are caught. I saw a woman argue with the policeman who was putting a ticket on her car because she was not authorized to park in a handicapped spot. Her excuse: I was only going to be in the store a minute. Really??!!
I will say that if you have kids in the car with you, you should feel morally obligated to obey all laws. You are modeling the correct behavior for those young and impressionable minds. If you, as their parent, grandparent, aunt or uncle display a cavalier attitude to laws, don’t expect them to obey them as they are growing up.
Another reason why the Muslim Brotherhood got elected in Egypt is the fact that a vast number of Egyptians (especially among the youngsters) are radical Islamic fundamentalists. That's the big problem with Muslim countries. Whenever they vote, they vote for radical Islamic parties. I truly believe that if we value human life above all things, we cannot support the establishment of democracies in primarily Muslim countries, since it would be like supporting the establishment of a democracy in a State where 90% of the people are Nazis. Sorry for derailing the thread, but I couldn't help it.
Last edited:
What? it was even tag liked?
I was expecting a more in-depth discussion covering what is due, justice, authorities...
And they wonder why America isn't blessed anymore. It's only kept from total destruction by those faithful who are their knees for our country. But at some point, enough will be enough.
This is why Europe is shocked over this last election when the extreme left won so many seats, including the Nazi's in Greece and in Germany. The communists won big in Spain.
Actually, I found Asuk post#15 interesting on how Jesus replied to the Pharisees regarding taxation… and the question of DavidG in-depth (post#23)….
And am pondering how it relates to Paul’s Romans 13:1-7
So question now: how to establish that "some point" or is there a reason to establish that “some point”…
Romans 13:1-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
Submit to Government
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to
I look at it differently.. if we take US for example, the current leader was selected by people knowing these are the things he is going to do.. The leader of a nation pretty much represents the spiritual condition of the nation.. It is not like he acted so differently before elections and doing something completely opposite of his what he mentioned in election campaign.. The nation elected him.. Which means, the nation desired for things to happen this way.. His agenda was quite clear.. The direction in which this nation is going is not because of the leaders alone.. It is because of the entire nation, their desires and their election of this leader.. It is because God has given the nation into the hands of such leaders due to the spiritual condition of people..
That "some point" can be established easily.. When it is against the Word of God and moral standards set by God, then we are not to subject ourselves to it..
Yes, am easily convinced as well with that as basis, I agree : )
It reminds me of a true story that took place in the 1970s. I don't remember the location or names, but a group of pro-life protestors were marching for the unborn. The police came and told them they needed to leave. Everyone left except for one teenage girl who kept marching.
In court, the judge said he recognized her name and asked her who her father was. She responded. The judge said "Oh yes, you are the daughter of a well-known theologian." She said yes. He went on "You do know that by protesting, you are disobeying your own faith. In the Bible, it says to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."
The girl responded, "Your honor, the bodies of these children do not belong to Caesar."
The meaning of "Render unto Caesar" is one of the most discussed, debated, and misunderstood passages in the Bible. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for awhile. And once I think I have the answer, another question often pops up, and I end up back at square one.
Was Christ legitimately justifying taxation? Was he condoning it? Was he not condoning it but telling us to submit to authority in the same way we ought to love our enemies? Was he speaking directly about the fiat coins since it had Caesar's name on them?
Even when I get a fairly sound answer, more questions come up and I can't automatically accept it. I suspect it is something I will constantly be searching for.
In court, the judge said he recognized her name and asked her who her father was. She responded. The judge said "Oh yes, you are the daughter of a well-known theologian." She said yes. He went on "You do know that by protesting, you are disobeying your own faith. In the Bible, it says to give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."
The girl responded, "Your honor, the bodies of these children do not belong to Caesar."
The meaning of "Render unto Caesar" is one of the most discussed, debated, and misunderstood passages in the Bible. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for awhile. And once I think I have the answer, another question often pops up, and I end up back at square one.
Was Christ legitimately justifying taxation? Was he condoning it? Was he not condoning it but telling us to submit to authority in the same way we ought to love our enemies? Was he speaking directly about the fiat coins since it had Caesar's name on them?
Even when I get a fairly sound answer, more questions come up and I can't automatically accept it. I suspect it is something I will constantly be searching for.
Perhaps he was downplaying a bad situation and then turned the focus on giving God what is God's.
I don't think Jesus gave a hoot about taxes.
...so, unless a rule is explicitly forbidden in Scripture, obey it?
I think Jesus often turned the focus toward God. I have no doubt about that. Though Christ always calls us to do what is right and just.
I suspect Christ doesn't care too much about taxes, but the repercussions of taxes is something I suspect He was sincere about...for instance, thou shalt not steal...One would think taxation would fall under this category. Though many probably argue it doesn't. I think a family who is struggling and is told to give their remaining amount to government is an unjust scenario.
I am definitely distraught by the evil in our culture. But in what way is it so much more evil than the Rome referred to in Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17?
That would be when the Lord's cup of wrath is full,
Psalms 75:8 (KJV)
For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them].
I believe I know what triggers His return to the earth though...
Joel 3:2 (KJV)
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Isaiah 34:8 (KJV)
For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Don't believe me? Look at what happened to Rabin and Sheron when they gave up the land! Woe to any...
Zechariah 12:3 (KJV)
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zechariah 12:9 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
We have prophecy happening right now!