Calvinism-the T.U.L.I.P. part 1
- Thread starter GraceBwithU
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I know this isn't to be a debate about one or the other, but can someone place these 2 verses into the context of predestination for me? Or if they are out of context on their own, then I need to understand the context of the chapter or the book itself. Im not trying to agreee with either side here, just looking for some inputsince this is the book I'm on now.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter-3:9
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
2 Peter 3:17
If we are predestined to grace, why verse 9? If grace is irresistable, why verse 19?
Or am I getting into dispensationalist territory here using Peter? There sure are alot of "ists" and "isms" in the Christian faith. I vote we just throw em all out and go back to being "Christ-ists".
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
2 Peter-3:9
"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."
2 Peter 3:17
If we are predestined to grace, why verse 9? If grace is irresistable, why verse 19?
Or am I getting into dispensationalist territory here using Peter? There sure are alot of "ists" and "isms" in the Christian faith. I vote we just throw em all out and go back to being "Christ-ists".
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
There are hundreds:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
free will is not defined as "operating outside of God's will" but simply as the ability to make a decision. And I can quote lots of Scripture that says "choose this day" ..
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
Romans 9:10-23
Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 1:4-5
Acts 13:48
an omnipotent and omniscient God cannot create beings with absolute free will.
I will recant if you can name one thing upon which you can make a decision which is outside of the providence and control of God from the beginning.
Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 1:4-5
Acts 13:48
an omnipotent and omniscient God cannot create beings with absolute free will.
I will recant if you can name one thing upon which you can make a decision which is outside of the providence and control of God from the beginning.
SlavetoChrist
That is exactly my point we do not have "absolute free will".
We are subject to God in everything we do, whether we are christians or not.
Definition of "free" from Websters christian dictionary.
Maybe a better word for "free" in this sense is "liberty".
The verses you listed above all deal with predestination. Which assumes there is no freedom of choice but God Himself chooses who gets brought to salvation and who does not. I will have to study this in more detail because there is verse that states God does not want anybody to perish but all must come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
Again all I am trying to stress is that we must be CAREFULL in talking about "free will". We live under Gods grace, that does give us licence to do as we please. Just because we are able to make choices does not mean we are free to make any choice we so desire.
We are either slaves to Christ, because we want to be, or we are slaves to lawlessness. Either way we are stil slaves to something or someone.
That is exactly my point we do not have "absolute free will".
We are subject to God in everything we do, whether we are christians or not.
Definition of "free" from Websters christian dictionary.
Maybe a better word for "free" in this sense is "liberty".
The verses you listed above all deal with predestination. Which assumes there is no freedom of choice but God Himself chooses who gets brought to salvation and who does not. I will have to study this in more detail because there is verse that states God does not want anybody to perish but all must come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
Again all I am trying to stress is that we must be CAREFULL in talking about "free will". We live under Gods grace, that does give us licence to do as we please. Just because we are able to make choices does not mean we are free to make any choice we so desire.
We are either slaves to Christ, because we want to be, or we are slaves to lawlessness. Either way we are stil slaves to something or someone.
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
There is the perfect will of God.
There is the permisive will of God.
Is there rebellion to the will of God? I think it can easily be scripturally established even though it's outcome is never good.
Example: He is not willing that any should perish yet many choose to reject the love gift of His Son.
There is the permisive will of God.
Is there rebellion to the will of God? I think it can easily be scripturally established even though it's outcome is never good.
Example: He is not willing that any should perish yet many choose to reject the love gift of His Son.
I said:
Then Kevin said:
SlavetoChrist
That is exactly my point we do not have "absolute free will".
We are subject to God in everything we do, whether we are christians or not.
Definition of "free" from Websters christian dictionary.
Maybe a better word for "free" in this sense is "liberty".
The verses you listed above all deal with predestination. Which assumes there is no freedom of choice but God Himself chooses who gets brought to salvation and who does not. I will have to study this in more detail because there is verse that states God does not want anybody to perish but all must come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
Again all I am trying to stress is that we must be CAREFULL in talking about "free will". We live under Gods grace, that does give us licence to do as we please. Just because we are able to make choices does not mean we are free to make any choice we so desire.
We are either slaves to Christ, because we want to be, or we are slaves to lawlessness. Either way we are stil slaves to something or someone.
Am I being ignored here?
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
I am hearing you carolinasteve!
I don't think many of us are even listening. lol
I think there are two .. God's "will" and God's "plan" .. according to God's "will" there would be no one in hell and no pain (ie heaven on earth) .. according to His "plan" what has happened and is happening and will happen...
I think there are two .. God's "will" and God's "plan" .. according to God's "will" there would be no one in hell and no pain (ie heaven on earth) .. according to His "plan" what has happened and is happening and will happen...
B
Boanerges(Inactive)
Guest
Those He foreknows He predestines. God see your heart and make plans accordingly.
God's plan has been the same since the beginning of time.. He foreknew... He preplanned it.
Calvinists are proud to proclaim, "The basic principle of Calvinism is the sovereignty of God." This doctrine allowed John Calvin to interpret Scripture in any manner he desired in order to fit his Institutes theology. He simply claimed the sovereignty of God allowed it. God's other attributes such as love, justice, mercy and grace became less important so long as sovereignty reigned. John Calvin's extreme definitions of sovereignty and sin (Total Depravity or Total Inability) laid the foundation for a religion that bears his name, Calvinism.
Wikipedia
“Calvin was trained to be a lawyer. He studied under some of the best legal minds of the Renaissance in France. Part of that training involved the newer humanistic methods of exegesis. His legal and exegetical training was important for Calvin because, once convinced of the growing Protestant faith, he applied these exegetical methods to the Scripture. He self-consciously tried to mold his thinking along biblical lines, and he labored to preach and teach what he believed the Bible taught.”
Wikipedia
“Calvin was trained to be a lawyer. He studied under some of the best legal minds of the Renaissance in France. Part of that training involved the newer humanistic methods of exegesis. His legal and exegetical training was important for Calvin because, once convinced of the growing Protestant faith, he applied these exegetical methods to the Scripture. He self-consciously tried to mold his thinking along biblical lines, and he labored to preach and teach what he believed the Bible taught.”
and what part about that is bad?
God's plan included allowing man the ability to choose right from wrong. The reason he did this is for his glory. It is when we choose God's truth over Satan's lies that God is truely glorified. He wants us to seave him willingly not as robots.God is very capable of a plan that predestination and free will exist together. The reason this subject is so difficult to understand is because it's all true. God did infact predestine his plan for salvation. He planned to send his son to die for us. He most likely even named the people that he would irresistably be called later for a special purpose. ( disicples, Moses, David, Jacob, etc.) He may have even named the Pharisees, Judias, etc. to not hear. After all if they had heard they would not have crucified Jesus. He also elected before the foundation of the earth the remnant of Israel. And then there was this other group. This group contains the elect that choose him throughout the ages. People are added to it every minute. This works because God knows how to make it work so that both exists. And what He predestines or what free will he allows is in perfect harmony for His true glory.
There are at least 5 beings envolved in the decision to receive salvation and become a member of the last group I mentioned.
- The Holy Spirit - calls the sinner.
- The Son - His atonement
- The Father - Grace and mercy, the truth
- Satan - Tries to keep the sinner from accepting God's call with lies and false promises.
- The sinner - Is called, struggles because of his sinful nature and Satan's lies. If he believes in Jesus he is saved and God pours out his grace and truth.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV
The verse above says God so loved the WORLD, (not God so loved; Judy, Sue, Harry, and Billy) that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him. Here he is talking about the people in the third group.
I think we all agree that God has given us the ability to choose right from wrong but the issue is are we free to do so.
I have been thinking, somebody mentioned somewhere in the thread that we cannot operate outside of Gods will.
Sin is operating outside of Gods will. Murder, rape, abortion etc all go against Gods will.
Any thoughts?
I have been thinking, somebody mentioned somewhere in the thread that we cannot operate outside of Gods will.
Sin is operating outside of Gods will. Murder, rape, abortion etc all go against Gods will.
Any thoughts?
Sin is disobedience. It is operating in contradiciton to God's command, not necessarily His will.
This is where this whole idea of predestination v/s free will gets so daunting when trying to understand God. At least for me. Sin, again,by it's simplest, purest definition, is disobedience to God's command. But, His command to us is not necessarily the entirety of His will. When He wants us to know His will for us, He gives us a command. Sometimes He gives us commands, without explaining His will. But it is possible for the will to exist without the direct command. God's will is simply everything that does or does not happen. I do not believe that anything happnes outside of God's will, because nothing happens that God doesn't know about. His will is omnipresent, just as He is omnipresent. So, I would have to say that no, we cannot operate outside of God's will. But does His will ever change? Why would the will of an imnipresent,omniscient, all powerful God need to be changed? Is there scripture to say for sure that His will does or does not change?
John 14:6, I believe is the defining verse of Christianity:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(KJV)"
All of arguments for Calvinism or Arminianism, Augustine or Pelagius cannot change this fact. Those that hear either hear or they don't. They believe or they don't. Our quest to understand God and God's will, I have come to believe over the last few days of following this thread and listening to Ministers like John McArthur and R.C.Sproul on the radio, is nothing more than a tower of Babel, and seems to be no more than theological philosophy, influenced by scripture. I don't know if I agree with predestination or not. My main interst in the whole topic has been to get an answer about the need for evangelising, if the ideas of Calvan regarding predestination are correct. But I now realize that it all comes back to John 14:6. I wanted an answer for why some say,"Well, I just don't believe the Bible or that Jesus is the Son of God, or that there is even a God at all." Whether they are meant hear, see and then believe or not is not our concern, regardless of how much we want it for them, how much we love them. Our concern is only that we express the level of love that God commands us to, so that they do hear and see. The rest, as in everything else, is in God's hands.
With love in Christ for all my brothers and sisters in this thread,
Steve
I'm sorry but it is logically impossible for an omniscient and omnipotent God to create beings with true free will.
it is not just "the plan of salvation" that God predestined. Look how many times people are told "I have CHOSEN you" .. and what about "many are called but few are CHOSEN.." not "choose to follow" ...
we have the choice.. but it is on factor's God ultimately has full and complete control of... so it is not true free will.
it is not just "the plan of salvation" that God predestined. Look how many times people are told "I have CHOSEN you" .. and what about "many are called but few are CHOSEN.." not "choose to follow" ...
we have the choice.. but it is on factor's God ultimately has full and complete control of... so it is not true free will.
I'm sorry but it is logically impossible for an omniscient and omnipotent God to create beings with true free will.
it is not just "the plan of salvation" that God predestined. Look how many times people are told "I have CHOSEN you" .. and what about "many are called but few are CHOSEN.." not "choose to follow" ...
we have the choice.. but it is on factor's God ultimately has full and complete control of... so it is not true free will.
Why would anyone be so bold as to label anything impossible for God. Only by man's logic is it impossible. Man is confined to the rules of 4 dimensions. Height, Width, Depth, and time. God is not bound by these dimensions.