Calvinism-the T.U.L.I.P. part 1

can you name me a factor that a being created by an omnipotent and omniscient God can make a decision upon which is not determined and controlled by that God? :)

God is a good and gracious God but that doesn't mean that free will is absolute. Everything has, is, and will go according to God's plan.
 
You should change your photo. I'm sure you must have more pleasant ones.

God is God. To limit his abilities to your human logic is to not understand him and to limit His power to a humanistic understanding.
:)
 
understand as you understand. this is not foundational theology we are discussing. I have "been through the ringer" intellectually.. I know what I'm talking about and it is not "humanism" ... because I use logic doesn't mean that I am limiting God either. :)
 
slavetoChrist said:
understand as you understand. this is not foundational theology we are discussing. I have "been through the ringer" intellectually.. I know what I'm talking about and it is not "humanism" ... because I use logic doesn't mean that I am limiting God either. :)
Click to expand...
I truly believe you are sincere. I'm sure you do not intend to limit God's sovereignty. But it is not you that did it was the father of the Calvinism that does. The irony of it all is that God's sovereignty is exactly what Calvinist use to defend their narrow interpretation of God's word.

However, even though Calvin misinterpreted some of the scripture, he did bring about points that caused us to look closer at some scripture. I own a complete copy of Calvin's commentaries and consult them now and then. Of course I own 21 differant versions of the Bible and 80 or 90 commentaries that I also consult including Geneva notes.



:)
 
So do I. Wierd huh.;)

God predestined His plan for salvation. For god so loved the world that he predestined to give his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. All the covenants between God and man were also predestined, (Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, etc.)
God also predestined before the foundation of the world and before the world began three groups of people to receive his grace, salvation, and eternal life. These groups of people therefore were predestined to receive these gifts from God. These three groups make up His complete church. The three groups are:
  • Those chosen by God for some special purpose. Among the Elect mentioned in scripture are Moses, Abraham, David, the Israelites, Christ, angels, writers of the Books of the Bible, Christ's disciples, etc. (Members of this group were named and also written in the book of life before the world began.)
  • The remnant of Israel. Rev 7:4-8 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. This seal confirms their election.
  • Whosoever chooses to believe. The great multitude, mentioned in Rev. 7:9-10. The election to this group is on going. People are added to it every minute. They are added when they choose to believe in Jesus. (Rev. 7:9-10); “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” These are those elected from the resurrection of Jesus until today by their choosing to believe the truth of Jesus over the lies of Satan.
From Adam until the resurrection of Jesus Christ God’s people were under the law of Moses. The resurrection of Christ began the church age. We are now under grace. We are living in the Church age, which is the sixth age. (From the Resurrection of Christ to His millennial Kingdom)

Jn 1:17
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
KJV

One example. This verse is used by Calvinist alot to try to prove everything predestined.

Tit 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This verse is simply talking about eternal life that was promised by God before the world began. The verse before this mentions the word elect...it is referring to Paul. Paul was for sure one of the choosen for a special purpose, as were the disciples.
:)
 
We choose and this has influence on how our lives are lived. But in the end a rebellious heart may find itself puked up on a beach where God was wanting him all along. Other times He may raise up someone else and we may miss the blessing entirely.
Either way His greater will is going to come to pass.
 
The dispute over predestination and free will could go on and on until Christ comes back. I normally don't engage in debates concerning Arminianism and Calvinism because if we're all certain we are saved, then why argue over it? This debate will never be settled, and the doctrinal rhetoric surrounding it will continue in its redundance. That being said, I will comment on the L portion of the tulip--Limited Attonement so-called. Limited attonement is pure unbiblical garbage. It has zero scriptural support, and several words such as "all", "world", and "whosoever" must be changed or interpreted allegorically multiple times throughout the New Testament in order for this doctrine to work. Example:
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

How does limited attonement get around that now? R.C. Sproul says the word "world" doesn't mean the whole world. Who says? Nobody reads the bible like that except those who impose their doctrine upon the scripture. If you have to change or manipulate a simple text to understand what the bible is saying to suit a particular doctrine, then the doctrine is false.
People shouldn't have to have some overeducated guru standing by to tell them what a text plainly says. 1 John 2:2 is pretty clear--it isn't symbolic like Revelation. Jesus Christ died for the whole world; rich and poor; great and small. If he only died for the elect--then why don't we just go preach to the elect? What makes us so special that he only died for us, and not the guy down the road who isn't saved?

When you preach to a lost person do you tell them Christ died for them or not? Or do you say "Well, this man Jesus may have died for you, I'm not sure, accept him as Lord and savior and I guess we'll find out". If a person subscribes to limited attonement then they can't tell anyone for sure that Christ died for their sins can they? How could they if they're not sure? To tell a lost person that Christ died for their sins when you believe in Limited Attonement would be lying wouldn't it? You therefore have a problem.
Nobody preaches like that--they tell people that Christ died for their sins because that's the truth that the bible belabours over and over again.
Calvinism's four other points are of little concern to me because I do not find them insulting to our Lord whether they're true or not; but this one does. I apologize for sounding angry, but this particular teaching fires me up.

God Bless you all
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top