Just a quick, general note.I figured I'd make this thread for everyone who has any questions about the subject. Ready, go!
Just a quick, general note.
There were always questions when this subject was brought up in the past.
Please keep your posts civil and back all claims with appropriate Scripture.
Does Unconditional Election makes God a hypocrite and simply gives a good argument to non beleivers that God is really evil and wicked for picking and choosing who gets His mercy and who gets his wrath?
No?
Fourthly, I would argue that to say Election is "Conditional" upon faith, you are also saying God is a respecter of persons. You are basically saying God says "You have faith, I like you. You don't have faith, I don't like you." Unconditional election is actually one of the proofs of God not being a respecter of persons like Peter says in Acts 10:34.
I enjoyed the comics quite a bit, but like Bloom County, all good things must come to an end.
Oh, that Calvin. Sorry.
I don't see this as being a respecter of persons, though. All God is saying is that faith is the means (essentially available to anyone) by which you enter into grace/relationship/whatever particular terminology you prefer. Kind of like if God put out a box of keys and said, "These keys open the door to Heaven." Anyone who took a key and put it in the lock of Heaven's door and turned it could get in. Anyone who refused would simply be locked out. The keys are freely available to all, but only those who actually take one get through the door.
If Election exists then what is the point of evangelism and going out to preach the Gospel?
Another flaw in the logic.
The problems I find with the Calvinist view of predestination are several.
First - it makes "free will" meaningless. If I have no choice, i.e. all good is forced upon me by God, without my will or consent, how is it good? And for the forgotten, how can a man be held liable for sin he had no choice but comitting? He was given the tendency towards sin, lived in an environment of sin, not allowed the choice to accept grace, and now would be condemned forever for being in a position he was not allowed to oppose.
Second- it makes God a murderer. With this point of view, He has created beings only to condemn them out of hand.
It's like having clipped a birds wings, now you demand that it fly?
The problems I find with the Calvinist view of predestination are several.
First - it makes "free will" meaningless. If I have no choice, i.e. all good is forced upon me by God, without my will or consent, how is it good? And for the forgotten, how can a man be held liable for sin he had no choice but comitting? He was given the tendency towards sin, lived in an environment of sin, not allowed the choice to accept grace, and now would be condemned forever for being in a position he was not allowed to oppose.
Second- it makes God a murderer. With this point of view, He has created beings only to condemn them out of hand.
It's like having clipped a birds wings, now you demand that it fly?
The term "free will" never appears in Scripture.
There is a window of grace that God gives children. The window is the moment of conception to the moment of knowledge between good and evil. God does not hold a human being accountable for doing wrong and not being capable of understanding and being taught why. This is why I believe all children and the mentally handicap are elect. They are incapable of discerning good from evil
Total depravity: This doctrine, also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbour and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God andbe saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[10] This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin.
The disciples did not choose to follow Jesus? We do not choose to humble our hearts and accept the Holy Spirit working on them? We do not choose to harden our hearts and grieve the Holy Spirit?
Unconditional election: This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and towithhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God[11]
God did not plan to extend mercy on those going to hell???
Limited atonement: Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", this doctrine asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[12] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.
Some and not all…..??????
Irresistible grace: This doctrine, also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[13]
No free will to reject God…????
Perseverance of the saints: Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.[14]
I suppose those believing once saved always saved can agree here, but this is even more extreme when you apply the concept from above points of being one of the few that are pre-chosen for mercy.
No matter how you spin it, Calvinism IS a harsh twist of scripture that will cause pride for the chosen and create justification for hatred towards God amongst the 'un-chosen'.
I would never serve a God that I even suspected did not treat everyone fairly. When Scripture says ''God is NO respecter of persons'' it means exactly that.
God in all His power CHOOSES to NOT KNOW the destiny of every baby human He creates. If He did, then He is guilty of not giving all free will and being a respecter of persons…..it is just that simple…
Aenon, why conform to Calvinsim when it insinuates preference by God? How did you become a Calvinist?