Can Someone Explain To Me The Significance Of Cain And Abel?
- Thread starter Tainted Scrolls
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Stan, I think you can see that your statement concerning sin and it's effects is being opposed both Scriptually and logically, so tell us clearly what you believe with just a simple yes or no, we are all listening both members and a multitude of lurkers.
Are the Curses found in Gen 3:15 still in effect today?
Before you answer......, I observed a chink in your armor on a thread you started, for the first time since I have joined you admitted you were willing to learn, Stan, that's what we all are looking for, no one knows everything about the Word except God, I can imagine how tiring it must be for someone to try to be perfect all of the time, to always be correcting others and how much animosity that must generate, just look at the threads you have participated in here, how many true friends do you have? You have also told us you recently quit another Christian site, did you come off there, did you treat them like you do us here? I believe I read you said you had been walking with the Lord for 42 years now, do you have peace with the brethren, ...Stan, we all love you, you are the one pushing us away, we are ALL excepted in the Beloved, that includes you too, so won't you please stop trying to be the Holy Ghost helper and join in with us, fellowship with us, get to know us and you will find we all have own idiosyncrasies, faults, we all make mistakes, say stupid things, but Love is the common bond that glues us all together and a three stranded cord is not easily broken, ...we are ALL sinners saved by grace, ..........I'm mostly a lurker, getting to know who my fellow saints are by what they post and I can say there are a lot of good, genuine, loving brothers and sisters here, so, won't you let us love on ya bro?
In His Love,
Gene
Are the Curses found in Gen 3:15 still in effect today?
Before you answer......, I observed a chink in your armor on a thread you started, for the first time since I have joined you admitted you were willing to learn, Stan, that's what we all are looking for, no one knows everything about the Word except God, I can imagine how tiring it must be for someone to try to be perfect all of the time, to always be correcting others and how much animosity that must generate, just look at the threads you have participated in here, how many true friends do you have? You have also told us you recently quit another Christian site, did you come off there, did you treat them like you do us here? I believe I read you said you had been walking with the Lord for 42 years now, do you have peace with the brethren, ...Stan, we all love you, you are the one pushing us away, we are ALL excepted in the Beloved, that includes you too, so won't you please stop trying to be the Holy Ghost helper and join in with us, fellowship with us, get to know us and you will find we all have own idiosyncrasies, faults, we all make mistakes, say stupid things, but Love is the common bond that glues us all together and a three stranded cord is not easily broken, ...we are ALL sinners saved by grace, ..........I'm mostly a lurker, getting to know who my fellow saints are by what they post and I can say there are a lot of good, genuine, loving brothers and sisters here, so, won't you let us love on ya bro?
In His Love,
Gene
No one but you Gene, and WITHOUT scripture I might add. Logic is another issue and NOT one that should be used to read scripture. Human logic fails. God is TRUTH, as is His Word.
People who demand yes or no answers are always looking to lead us down a path of their own choosing and understanding, NOT God's. I don't know who the multitude is you speak of. As of right now, this is who is online:
Members Online: 4 Guests Online: 44 Robots Online: 13..... Don't care much about guests until they become members. Guests can't post.
Nope!
The ONLY armor I employ is the one Paul talks about in Eph 6 and 1 Thess 5. I don't treat people like the enemy Gene and I don't look for chinks. I do however respond in like manner to those who THINK they know it all. What I will say to you, is read and apprehend Luke 6:42.
Patronizing me does NOT help your cause Gene, or endear you to me. I leave other sites because of people like you and Fish who always argue with EVERYONE. I have decided to stay here because there are enough interesting people on here who are balanced in their approach to God's word, and the others who aren't I eventually put on ignore. Once the Lord makes it clear a person is unteachable, I stop trying.
I can't tell who you are replying to Rusty, but I don't agree that God killed ANY animal.
It says, "God MADE garments of skin." It doesn't say He killed any animals to do so. This would be an assumption as far as I can see. Are we also to assume God gave them a course on killing and skinning and tanning hides before He made those garments?
Oh good...let me know how that goes.
OK, so Gen 3:21 uses the same word in the Greek that Gen 1:1 does. The word is ποιέω / poieō. Now as God had already created the animals, creating or making the animal skins would not be an issue.
The Hebrew words both connote make so I see no inconsistency between the languages.
I don't see the typification you see Rusty. God would give them what was available at hand at that time. NOT woven garments.
Although God's plan for salvation WAS already established in His will and mind, I don't see it represented here. What does it tell us here in Gen 4 was the reason for the offering? Did God tell Cain He didn't accept his offering because it wasn't an animal with blood? No He told him if you "DO the right thing", NOT 'offer' the right thing.
The first mention I see of a sacrifice/burnt offering on an altar, is in Gen 8:20, AFTER the flood.
OK, so Gen 3:21 uses the same word in the Greek that Gen 1:1 does. The word is ποιέω / poieō. Now as God had already created the animals, creating or making the animal skins would not be an issue.
The Hebrew words both connote make so I see no inconsistency between the languages.
I don't see the typification you see Rusty. God would give them what was available at hand at that time. NOT woven garments.
Although God's plan for salvation WAS already established in His will and mind, I don't see it represented here. What does it tell us here in Gen 4 was the reason for the offering? Did God tell Cain He didn't accept his offering because it wasn't an animal with blood? No He told him if you "DO the right thing", NOT 'offer' the right thing.
The first mention I see of a sacrifice/burnt offering on an altar, is in Gen 8:20, AFTER the flood.
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Sure I can and I'm NOT surprised. Pharisees always REACT to the truth and light.
Gen 3:17-19
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
Do you see ANY reference to a multi-generational curse here as with the snake and Eve's children? Why were so many farmers AFTER Adam successful and have great abundance?
That's right, I used it along with sacrifice. The two seem to go together in scripture.
Well that I DIDN'T say. I said I don't see this first offering being a typification of Christ. There are definitely typifications throughout the OT.
I can't be sure if Abel's offering was bloodless or not. Obviously cutting up a lamb would entail some residual blood but the portions Abel brought were fat portions. Jesus was a blood offering. Blood offerings and burnt offerings were not used for the same reasons. Blood was always a sign of atonement and used in addition to what was burnt as a sacrifice. The blood was always taken OUT of the sacrifice. So I don't see the symbolism you see here.
I don't see this, even though Moses wrote Genesis, instruction from God was there when required. 1 John 3:12 says: Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.
Abel offered the first and best of his flock and Cain offered SOME of the fruits of the soil. Abel's offering was his best, from his heart with sincerity and love, Cain's was none of these and was made out of a sense of obligation. He did NOT do what was right in this regard, it had nothing to do with the type of offering that was made.
I simply quoted a verse that is found in the Bible:
"Do you see a person wise in their own eyes?There is more hope for a fool than for them" (Prov. 26:12)
It should remind ALL of us not to be wise in our own conceit---to submit and humble ourselves before the Lord and his Holy Word. To hold to doctrine, not opinion. If you want me to create the "friendly thread" where only friendly things are said, I guess I could do that. But I seem to recall Proverbs also saying "faithful are the wounds of a friend". None of us is perfect, and we all need instruction--it is when we hit a place where we feel we know it all that we need to take care, and actually realize that Proverbs 26:12 could be applying to the great wisdom we think we possess,when in actuality we are walking down a fool's path.
That is an excellant comment that applies to every one of us. I know I that I learn something new every day and I thank God I still have that ability.
I have recently been concerned that I persoanally have not been as friendly and brotherly as I could be, and I invited everyone to look inside of themselves and take an inventory and then respond to those things that hurt others.
We all need to do this so that we can love on each other.
Thanks Gene for your insights!
Excellant.
Prov. 18:24 reads ................
"A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother."
Clearly, this is a challenge to all of us to be friendly: in order to have friends, one must be friendly.
The question from Gene to Stan was...........
"Are the Curses found in Gen. 3:15 still in effect today?"
Stan's answer was..........................................
Nope!
That means Stan has rejected the Adamic Covenant.
Let's be clear on this as it is of great importance. Shall we put aside all the blustering and positioning and stick with the Word of God. Stan has stated that is what he wants to do. Great!
Genesis 3:14-19..........
"And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life: and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your pain and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you. And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return. "
God and Adam are pictured in this covenant in which Adam represented the whole human race. Thus the judgment on Adam is the judgment on all humanity.******(Important thing to learn)
It is called in the Scriptures......"Federal Headship".
Romans 5:12 teaches us............
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon ALL men for that ALL have sinned".
Adam's sin resulted in a sinful race of human beings. This is all about the doctrine of "IMPUTATION" under the law of Federal Headsip. Now this is what the BIBLE says, not what we think. The gift of grace through the righteous act of Christ results in a spiritual race. The principle of "imputation" that reduces all men to the same ultimate condition which came from Adam, also then provides for men all the same ultimate answer of the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Adam, was the "Federal Head" of the human race accroding to the Bible as just posted in Romans 5:12. He was also the SEMINAL head and that implies that everyone existed in seed form within Adam. That means he was the head of the human race. We were all in the body of Adam when he sinned just as was Levi in the body of Abraham when he met Melchizedek. That means that when Adam sinned, we all sinned with him which confirms Romans 3:23 in that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
What does all that mean. Well Stan, it means that the curses given to Adam were in fact given to all of us. That is not my opinion but instead it is Bible 101.The main point of the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 is that the Messiah would be of the Seed of woman. This goes against the biblical norm that teaches that genealogy is traced through the male line, not through the female line. So then why is it an exception here??????
Because this exception will not be known for centuries until Isaiah 7:14 revealed that the Messiah will be conceived and born of a virgin. The prophecy of Genesis 3:15 led to the events of Genesis 6:1-4 when Satan tried to corrupt the seed of the woman and will lead to the future supernatural conception of the Antichrist.
IT is through the "Federal Headship" of Adam that now God is able through the "Federal Headship" of Christ to save those who will come to Christ and trust Him as the payment of their sin. Adam and Christ are representives of the human race.
Adam is the natural head of the human race and Christ is the head of a new race, the redeamed man and the church is His body, a new creation.
BUT...........You said NOPE!
I am not being mean, I am not being un-friendly and I am not calling names or condemning you. I only repeated the one word which you posted...........NOPE.
I would say that there should be some thinking, and praying over your answer when you consider the cross of the Lord Jesus and the answer to the question, WHY did Jesus have to die???
I hope Rusty will encourage you to read this and I look forward to your prayer answer.
"Are the Curses found in Gen. 3:15 still in effect today?"
Stan's answer was..........................................
Nope!
That means Stan has rejected the Adamic Covenant.
Let's be clear on this as it is of great importance. Shall we put aside all the blustering and positioning and stick with the Word of God. Stan has stated that is what he wants to do. Great!
Genesis 3:14-19..........
"And Jehovah God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life: and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your pain and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children; and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you. And unto Adam he said, Because you have hearkened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life; thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the herb of the field; in the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return. "
God and Adam are pictured in this covenant in which Adam represented the whole human race. Thus the judgment on Adam is the judgment on all humanity.******(Important thing to learn)
It is called in the Scriptures......"Federal Headship".
Romans 5:12 teaches us............
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon ALL men for that ALL have sinned".
Adam's sin resulted in a sinful race of human beings. This is all about the doctrine of "IMPUTATION" under the law of Federal Headsip. Now this is what the BIBLE says, not what we think. The gift of grace through the righteous act of Christ results in a spiritual race. The principle of "imputation" that reduces all men to the same ultimate condition which came from Adam, also then provides for men all the same ultimate answer of the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Adam, was the "Federal Head" of the human race accroding to the Bible as just posted in Romans 5:12. He was also the SEMINAL head and that implies that everyone existed in seed form within Adam. That means he was the head of the human race. We were all in the body of Adam when he sinned just as was Levi in the body of Abraham when he met Melchizedek. That means that when Adam sinned, we all sinned with him which confirms Romans 3:23 in that "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".
What does all that mean. Well Stan, it means that the curses given to Adam were in fact given to all of us. That is not my opinion but instead it is Bible 101.The main point of the prophecy of Gen. 3:15 is that the Messiah would be of the Seed of woman. This goes against the biblical norm that teaches that genealogy is traced through the male line, not through the female line. So then why is it an exception here??????
Because this exception will not be known for centuries until Isaiah 7:14 revealed that the Messiah will be conceived and born of a virgin. The prophecy of Genesis 3:15 led to the events of Genesis 6:1-4 when Satan tried to corrupt the seed of the woman and will lead to the future supernatural conception of the Antichrist.
IT is through the "Federal Headship" of Adam that now God is able through the "Federal Headship" of Christ to save those who will come to Christ and trust Him as the payment of their sin. Adam and Christ are representives of the human race.
Adam is the natural head of the human race and Christ is the head of a new race, the redeamed man and the church is His body, a new creation.
BUT...........You said NOPE!
I am not being mean, I am not being un-friendly and I am not calling names or condemning you. I only repeated the one word which you posted...........NOPE.
I would say that there should be some thinking, and praying over your answer when you consider the cross of the Lord Jesus and the answer to the question, WHY did Jesus have to die???
I hope Rusty will encourage you to read this and I look forward to your prayer answer.
Okay Stan, you have stated/shown that Adam died and returned to the dust from which he was created/made, so if the Curse was only for him and not his descendants/generations after him, why then have/do all humans and everything created still die?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gene
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gene
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Also,
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
On the day that Adam ate, what died?
And the word die -mooth- in the verse is repeated two times and we know when we find a word repeated twice in the Word it carries a very significant meaning/warning (i.e. - verily, verily), so the correct reading is:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die die.
Gene
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
On the day that Adam ate, what died?
And the word die -mooth- in the verse is repeated two times and we know when we find a word repeated twice in the Word it carries a very significant meaning/warning (i.e. - verily, verily), so the correct reading is:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die die.
Gene
Yes my friend, I also see that same connection from the Garden to Calvary.
I am sad to hear that you have never heard a sermon/teaching on this important aspect of Bible truth.
I know you have read Dr. McGee and he has produced several works that expound this Bible fact.
You might also want to read Dr. Oliver B. Green, Dr. Penecost as well.
Then consider Hebres 9:22......
"Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission (Of sin)".
That complimeants Leviticus 17:11.....
"And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself and for his house and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself".
Then we have Genesis 3:21..........
"Unto Adam and his wife did the LORD GOD MAKE COATS OF SKIN, and clothed them."
The word for "SKINS" presupposes the death of animals and therefore the idea of the blodd sacrifice is clearly taught in the Bible.
And YES, I also agree that Adam and Eve would have taught their children the correct ways of the Lord God. Although Genesis does not say that God told Abel and Cain what to bring, but IHMO Hebrews 11:4 does.
Heb. 11:4
"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellant sacrifice than Cain by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts and by it he being dead yet speketh".
The Bible says that God accepts both grain and animal sacrifices.....correct? So then why one and not the other?
It was not the offering but the character of the one bringing the sacrifice that made it acceptable or not. Abel came and made his sacrifice by FAITH according to Hebrews 11. Cain obviousely did not.
Even before Cain did this, Genesis 4:7 tells us that Cain's heart was not right with God to begin with.
So then, why did Abel, how did Abel know what to bring. From his parents.....absolutely!
Then also there is this question........What is faith. Heb. 11:4 says that..." Abel came by faith".
"Rom. 10:17 says ............"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
Does'nt that imply that Abel must have had a revelation from God. So then must have Cain as they were in the same family. Cain heard, ignored and sinned. Abel heard, accepted the Word of God and obeyed. It comes down to the character of the one bringing the sacrifice IMHO.
O, stop it Rusty!
You said you agreed with me on being friendly and then you just said...........
"I agree with anyone I see as teaching Biblical facts...even you".
Do YOU trhink that was friendly, christian?
Be nice man.....leave the sarcasm behind and lets work together.
I said this because Stan has me on the "ignore" button and you know that. I thought you would be able to encourage him to read the post.
Yes and the condition of their heart.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Gene
Rusty, I believe that this is the second time that you have used sarcasm in speaking to me since the event of the apology.. An apology is not a weapon that can or should be used in a demeaning or clever way as a weapon.
You said,
"I'm answering to the new "friendly" Major."
I am not "new" and I am not one bit "friendlier" than I was 60 years ago.
I reached out to you and Stan in hopes of lowering the obvious animosity and anger which is apparent in whaat you post to me and to others. I apologized in order that we could forget the past and move on to better and loftier things.
You however just keep hitting me over the head for some reason at every ooportunity. WHY????
It seems that you are not willing to be reconciled. According to your recent comments you are being sarcastic, and continue to say things that are out of line and not called for.
Lets move on shall we??? For both our sakes!
And may I add, faith here proves Abel was justified, declared just by God, because he believed God just like Abraham.
Gen 15:6 And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness (justification).
And declaring him righteous shows his actions before men were Godly, or more simply put he was obeying what God had told him to do.
Thus even though Abel has been dead a long time his actions are righteous, still speaking to us today, so that we can follow what he did and obey God.
Gene
Again clothing is NOT the same as shedding blood for the remission of sin, and you are assuming the death of an innocent was required when Genesis does NOT state or show this. I can't assume.
OK, LOL, I read it s l o w l y! Some goods points but the author says "beyond reasoned explanation", and I have a problem with that.
Also he assumes God commanded them on what to do as regards the offering. I see no evidence of this except for the author retroactively inserting the Leviticus law into this scenario. Again no support for that. The commands of God are of course important but we can't just assume they exist and then base our premises on them.
He focuses on v4 but says nothing about v5 where it says; but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. Then in verse 7 God says to Cain; "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”