Concerned

J

JohnC

Hey all,

With the events going on - both within the church and out in secular culture against the church, I am pretty concerned... One of the things that concerns me the most is that the "Messages" that we are getting from many respected voices is "Repent" - not just Secular society, but that The Church itself also must repent...

We need to be delivered from ourselves... WHAT specifically is it that we are doing... and on such a large scale that the ENTIRE church in THE WHOLE WORLD seems to be a target AND the guidance from God is "Repent" - not "Hang in there!"...

and I think the answer is Israel.

It turns out that the majority of prominent Christian denominations have formal policies both speaking out and acting against Israel (Do a google search.. I was surprised by how many denominations are formally denouncing Israel)... Many of them are couched in language about "Settlements" and "Aggression".. Justifications pertaining to the Palestinian Christians (Which those same denominations aren't really helping), "Human Rights", "Divestiture of Israeli assets" and this or that...

Here's the thing we gotta be careful about... There WAS a time when God was not regathering Israel - and during that time, preventing Israel from busying themselves with conquest of Canaan and running headlong against the Hand of God was a fine thing... it was consistent with God's plan for the times.. Consistent with the guidance of The Holy Spirit.. Even 200 years ago, it was NOT the time for Israel to hold the land - and the Church, acting in concert with God and aligned with His will, was right to work against this....

Those times are over now.

Since 1948 - God clearly has been regathering the Jews into Israel. With Israel formally "Holding" Jerusalem since 1967, it feels like we are standing on the cusp of the end of the "Times of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem" spoken of by Jesus in Luke... Luke 21:24 Isaiah 5:5, Isaiah 63:18, Daniel 8:13..

But - something here is extremely worrisome to me.. I am worried that this isn't just us being "Foolish" and ignoring scripture... It's as if the Church HAS in fact correctly discerned the time, but we picked the Apostate answer - doing the exact same thing the Jewish Temple leadership did 1,980-something years ago. And now - God is removing His Hand of Blessing and His Spirit from our churches...

Those holding power are attempting to prolong their ruler-ship over "God's people" and hold on to their "Authority"... These leaders are trying to Prolong "The time of The Gentiles" for their own sakes. That means to prolong the Gentile control over Jerusalem.. That's what is behind all these seemingly nonsensical answers pertaining to Israel...

The error is not realizing that in the past - it was NOT the time for Israel to hold the land or to hold Jerusalem... God's Spirit WAS guiding the church to "Prevent" Israel from reforming because it wasn't time... But now, it's different. Now - it's the "Error of Balaam" - KNOWING the will of God and acting diverse from it for your own personal gain....

What are we seeing within the church on a VERY large scale? Very dangerous symptoms... Following a course consistent with a lack of the guidance of God's Holy Spirit on MANY fronts (Lack of Christian education, public prayer, divorce, erosion of the family, homosexual marriage, stopping the teaching of The Bible, stopping service activities, ceasing evangelical outreach, teaching a "different gospel", ecumenism, etc.)... Notice what we are seeing.... A fearfulness.. Ineffectiveness.... Fearful of action, fearful of taking a stand, fearful of going out and spreading the gospel... and when they DO - they pick the wrong things... Ineffectiveness, being diverted OUT of the correct paths.. The things we do don't bear any fruit... We see a complete lack of effective leadership... A complete lack of our leadership "Knowing what to do".... Being taken by surprise over and over by events....

And then - the "House divided against itself".... Love of division and dissension between denominations... Internal power struggles within denominations.. Crippling infighting between ministries that actually succeeds at incapacitating those ministries.... Cleaving to doctrines that are absolutely contrary to The Gospel... It's as if God has handed them over.... It's as if God is saying "If you won't be part of MY plan - then I will give you up as I gave them up..."

Here's the thing we forget....
We read the scriptures and all the wonderful things about Israel and the end of the times of The Gentiles, and the kingdom age and the church being ruled by Jesus.... and we don't REALIZE how much Power and Authority that God holds.. He is the one who WRITES the scriptures.... The mistake of the Temple Leadership - thinking that because THEY were Roman appointed - not Aaron's firstborn blood appointed through Moses' hands, and as such - that if they supported The Messiah, their position would be given over to others... Not realizing just how much power and authority God really has in those matters.... That even though we are Gentiles - God has TREMENDOUS authority to GIVE us inheritance, authority, and power that we don't even recognize exists or that we would NOT otherwise be qualified to receive... God has Authority and Power to MAKE US PART of this (Isaiah 56:3)... BUT - if we strive AGAINST GOD - then we will surely be cast out. Think of Moab and Edom....

It's as if God is saying "You will not stand with ME and and this action FOR the Nation of Israel, then I will not stand with you either. If you will continue to resist me - then I will resist you. You continue to hate my plan for these people - I will not save or deliver you from that which YOU fear... You try to steal and take away the land of my people - then I will take away YOUR land and YOUR church property... Deny the right of these people the place I am giving them for their worship, then I will remove the places of yours... You correctly discern the times... That the thrones of the Gentiles are coming to an end - but you fight against My hand to make that happen not realizing that I have the power to bring you INTO My Will - and instead you choose the direction which yields being cast out.... Literally - the error of Balaam...

You have first hand revelation of what God is doing, and you try to do otherwise for your own gain.

This will not end well.
 
Uh..confused. Can you put it all in one sentence summary of what point you trying to make?

There has always been counterfeit versions of the gospel leading believers astray and on the wrong path.

If people are reading their Bibles and asking God for wisdom then they cant go wrong. The problem is when false teachers creep in the church preaching another gospel or twisting scripture to their own agendas. It needs to be spiritually discerned.

So...I would suggest instead of railing against peoples ignorance just keep on encouraging believers to read their Bibles everyday and making the Word available.
 
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Here is excerpts from an article I ran across today from the United Church of Christ and their synod. I find it amazing that 80 % of their leadership chooses to stand against the Israelis.
http://www.ucc.org/news_general_syn...ChurchOfChrist+(United+Church+of+Christ+News)
UCC votes for divestment, boycott of companies that profit from occupation of Palestinian territories
"Never underestimate the power of words." So said the Rev. Bernard Wilson, summarizing the vote by the General Synod of the United Church of Christ, which on Tuesday, June 30, became the latest church to call for divestment and boycott of companies that are complicit in the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Needing two-thirds percent approval, Synod delegates gave the resolution considerable support with 508 votes of the 632 cast (80.0 percent) in favor.

The UCC is one of three denominations to consider resolutions which, in part, call for an end of financial support for Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. The Episcopal Church and the Mennonite Church will also take up the issue this summer. In 2014, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and United Methodist Church divested from a handful of U.S. companies involved in the occupation, while various Quaker bodies have done the same.

The worldwide boycott, divestment and sanction (BDS) movement has, according to the proposed resolutions, resulted in losses of $26 million in contracts by Veolia—a French-based company that offers water, waste and transportation solutions, as well as the divestment from Israeli banks by European banks and pension funds, and a loss of revenue by SodaStream. The UCC resolutions call for divestment from Motorola, Hewlett Packard (HP), Caterpillar, Veolia and G4S, a security company that says it will end business in Israel in 2017.

Later in the day, another resolution focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict failed to gain enough votes. That resolution would have made the UCC the first denomination to recognize the actions of the Israeli government in the occupied territories as apartheid.

Of the 607 votes cast, 312 were in favor (51.4 percent) of the resolution, short of the necessary two-thirds majority.
 
Lanolin said:
Uh..confused. Can you put it all in one sentence summary of what point you trying to make?

There has always been counterfeit versions of the gospel leading believers astray and on the wrong path.

If people are reading their Bibles and asking God for wisdom then they cant go wrong. The problem is when false teachers creep in the church preaching another gospel or twisting scripture to their own agendas. It needs to be spiritually discerned.

So...I would suggest instead of railing against peoples ignorance just keep on encouraging believers to read their Bibles everyday and making the Word available.
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WHO are you talking to? The OP or another? Please use the reply button.
 
Big Moose said:
Here is excerpts from an article I ran across today from the United Church of Christ and their synod. I find it amazing that 80 % of their leadership chooses to stand against the Israelis.
http://www.ucc.org/news_general_synod_israel_palestine_resolution_06302015?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+UnitedChurchOfChrist+(United+Church+of+Christ+News)
UCC votes for divestment, boycott of companies that profit from occupation of Palestinian territories
"Never underestimate the power of words." So said the Rev. Bernard Wilson, summarizing the vote by the General Synod of the United Church of Christ, which on Tuesday, June 30, became the latest church to call for divestment and boycott of companies that are complicit in the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Needing two-thirds percent approval, Synod delegates gave the resolution considerable support with 508 votes of the 632 cast (80.0 percent) in favor.

The UCC is one of three denominations to consider resolutions which, in part, call for an end of financial support for Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. The Episcopal Church and the Mennonite Church will also take up the issue this summer. In 2014, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and United Methodist Church divested from a handful of U.S. companies involved in the occupation, while various Quaker bodies have done the same.

The worldwide boycott, divestment and sanction (BDS) movement has, according to the proposed resolutions, resulted in losses of $26 million in contracts by Veolia—a French-based company that offers water, waste and transportation solutions, as well as the divestment from Israeli banks by European banks and pension funds, and a loss of revenue by SodaStream. The UCC resolutions call for divestment from Motorola, Hewlett Packard (HP), Caterpillar, Veolia and G4S, a security company that says it will end business in Israel in 2017.

Later in the day, another resolution focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict failed to gain enough votes. That resolution would have made the UCC the first denomination to recognize the actions of the Israeli government in the occupied territories as apartheid.

Of the 607 votes cast, 312 were in favor (51.4 percent) of the resolution, short of the necessary two-thirds majority.
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All these show one thing, they believe the media over the word of God. How would the US react if the world said New Jersey is it's own country and we're repressing their freedom. What would America do if New Jersey were lobbing missiles at New York all the time? These are the days of Gog and Magog for sure. Even the rabbis have declared this. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137869#.VZjhi_mqpBc
 
As far as I understand scripture and prophecy, it is all going the way scripture said it would. It doesn't say in scripture that the gathering of Israel would automatically make them see the errors of their view of God - it just says it (the gathering) will happen and it did. They will be given the 2 witnesses for this correction. Revelation tells us that they will have to flee from Jerusalem once more midway thru the trib. I totally trust that God will keep His first chosen safe - the Remnant. The OP makes a very strong point that everyone else who walks outside God's Will will pay the cost and face judgement. That includes people who call themselves Christians but act and talk against scripture. How can you have a 2 state solution when one vows the eternal destruction of the other? Is it any surprise that worldly spin is against the Jew? It would be wise of God loving people not to buy into that deception. That gate keeps getting narrower, IMO.
 
Fun fact: About 20% of people living in Israel are Muslims.

Not trying to be an anti-seminist, just pointing out facts.
 
Juk said:
Fun fact: About 20% of people living in Israel are Muslims.

Not trying to be an anti-seminist, just pointing out facts.
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Jewish law (like the US) allows religious freedom and the 2 mosques on the "Temple Mount" would guarantee some muslims to live there. My understanding (could be wrong) that for citizenship you must be either a secular Jew or a practicing Jew to apply for citzenship....you cannot be a Jew who converted to either islam or Christianity. Maybe after??
 
Juk said:
Then how come Israel is such a God hating nation?
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It's absolutely true that as far as nations go - Israel is a very worldly place.. If you had to pick any one "Ideology" you see in Israel - it's Secular Humanism..... They have a very high regard for human rights and "Equality" - but not so much for the God of the Bible...

Now - the "Hating God" part - not so much... That's really a fabrication driven unfortunately by quite a few church denominations and helped along by the Muslims...

Exodus 32:11-13 and Ezekiel 36:22-23 does a better job of explaining this than I can do quickly.... God is doing this because HIS Holy Name is on the hook with The Jews... Over and over - the taunt of every single oppressor was the same and is STILL the same - "Where is your God now? He brought you out of Egypt and yet He cannot save you from us...." (Ezekiel 36 is a great reference)

We must remember that the regathering that is prophesied is that God will regather them and THEN He will wash/purify them.... Ezekiel 36:24-27 That washing hasn't happened yet....

That's the mistake that so many of us make... We see the worldliness.. The fact that by and large - the majority of Jews in Israel don't really even practice Judaism... and we say "They don't deserve to be regathered" and "They aren't really bearing fruit of their regathering" in a spiritual sense.... and that's true... But - we don't recognize that they are being regathered because of God's faithfulness - not their own...

My point is - that we should not stand against God... It's an error and it's resulting in a LOT of problems across the church worldwide... It's the ONE single thing that unites so many of the churches across the church world wide....

Thanks
 
JohnC said:
That's the mistake that so many of us make... We see the worldliness.. The fact that by and large - the majority of Jews in Israel don't really even practice Judaism... and we say "They don't deserve to be regathered" and "They aren't really bearing fruit of their regathering" in a spiritual sense.... and that's true... But - we don't recognize that they are being regathered because of God's faithfulness - not their own...
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I think that's key to understanding what's going on: Israel will be gathered to their homeland in unbelief, not because of their faithfulness, but God's. That's exactly what's happening. Only after the Church has been taken to be with Christ, and after the culmination of the "seventy weeks" of Daniel (Daniel 9:24) will a faithful remnant of Israel be recovered. "... they shall look on Me whom they pierced..." (Zechariah 12:10). However, that's a whole other discussion!
 
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The OP. I always reply to the OP if I'm posting.
If there's something specific I will quote the post. It says in the box below 'post reply'.

When someone starts a thread I will do my best to reply to that person or respond to the thing they want to discuss. If I want to pick on something thats specific to you Abidcate I will PM you! OK?? I don't hijack threads.
 
John C. Can you put in one sentence the point you making.
If its to do with Israel, cos your OP was very long.
I know different people teaching different things about Jerusalem. All I know is that...that is where Jesus will return. So the people there now, whether they believers, unbelievers etc will be close to where Jesus will set up His kingdom. And he will sort out the sheep from the goats. So..we don't need to worry about what the world is doing. It's very convoluted politically there and only God knows peoples hearts and which covenant they abiding under.
 
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Lanolin said:
John C. Can you put in one sentence the point you making.
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I will try.

I think the reason that much of "The Church" - the Global Body of Christ - is experiencing trouble is our attitude on Israel.

Is that a decent one sentence?

It's really the only single "Thing" that I have been able to identify that unites so many denominations that are so completely divided on every other issue - denominations that would formally issue doctrine statements declaring the sky "Pink" if the other declared it Blue...

History is pretty clear that for a LONG time - God was actively preventing The Jews from coming back to Israel - that as such, The Church preventing The Jews from wasting their time and resources fighting against God trying to do such was "God's will"... Written expositions expressing the Will of God for the day "Back when" may well reflect this...

As such - some will read these things and blindly, ignorantly accept them as true for today because they were written by a Godly man some time ago...

Others see the things that are going on and simply believe it's not the time.... That it doesn't fit with whatever personal chronology, timelines, or "Signs" they expect to see.

There is another, greater danger, though - and this one really worries me.... I believe there are leaders out there who DO discern that this is the real thing.... Then, they have decided to stand against Israel for their own personal gain - reasoning that when Israel does return to prominence within The Kingdom - that their own position will be diminished... We must work hard to stay away from these - for these are actively deceiving people to prop up their own positions and denominations.
 
Ok but i dont understand what attitude we meant to have...
Since most christians dont live in israel, the ones that do..are actively persecuted. The ones that are tourists are liked cos of the money they bring. Are you meaning the holy land, Jerusalem, or are you meaning israel the tribe. Or what is now a nation....founded by zionists?

Because theirs different teachings on that.
 
What should we do?
Returning Evil for Evil will not earn us any "Brownie points" with God... and it certainly won't earn the trust of Israel...

The major things I am talking about are formal policies that "The Church" has adopted in large measure....
Here are some examples...

Church denominations:
-enacting formal treaties with Israel's enemies..
-taking formal positions of support and cooperation with Israel's enemies...
-taking formal positions refuting Israel's sovereign status as a nation that must make it's own decisions for itself...
-taking formal positions which meddle in Israel's internal civil affairs (For example, denying "Rights" to build housing for citizens... Called "Neighborhoods" by the rest of the world, except in Israel - where they are known by the foreign media as "Settlements")
-taking formal positions requiring Israel to give up land - especially land that was traditionally Judea and Samaria... which do NOT make any similar demands that Israel's neighbors must also give up land of their own - placing all of the impetus upon Israel.
-which decry violence at Israel's hand and do not do such at the hands of Israel's enemies...
-support/encourage "Divestment" of Israeli businesses, etc..

Prominent denominations are doing all of these things as a matter of policy...

Thanks
 
JohnC said:
What should we do?
Returning Evil for Evil will not earn us any "Brownie points" with God... and it certainly won't earn the trust of Israel...

The major things I am talking about are formal policies that "The Church" has adopted in large measure....
Here are some examples...

Church denominations:
-enacting formal treaties with Israel's enemies..
-taking formal positions of support and cooperation with Israel's enemies...
-taking formal positions refuting Israel's sovereign status as a nation that must make it's own decisions for itself...
-taking formal positions which meddle in Israel's internal civil affairs (For example, denying "Rights" to build housing for citizens... Called "Neighborhoods" by the rest of the world, except in Israel - where they are known by the foreign media as "Settlements")
-taking formal positions requiring Israel to give up land - especially land that was traditionally Judea and Samaria... which do NOT make any similar demands that Israel's neighbors must also give up land of their own - placing all of the impetus upon Israel.
-which decry violence at Israel's hand and do not do such at the hands of Israel's enemies...
-support/encourage "Divestment" of Israeli businesses, etc..

Prominent denominations are doing all of these things as a matter of policy...

Thanks
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Enemies such as Palestine?
 
Oh ok..can you name what ones are doing this? As far as I know, the church I belong to does not get involved with such politics.
 
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