Conditions For Salvation

[Mr. Darby]

It's not a different explanation at all. (I've just reiterated things I've already said. Perhaps there is a failure in communication?) I believe that James has a practical application to Christians now and a dispensational, eschatological application to Jewish saints in the Tribulation. Practically to us today, it teaches us that our works prove the reality of faith. If you reread all that I posted on James on the other thread, you will see that I am not changing anything from what I have written before.

 

[Mr. Darby]

Here is my first post dealing with the practical aspects of James. I will not repost here the ones dealing with the dispensational nature of James. I will continue on that thread with those postings when I get more time to write.

One must put the James passage into it's context to get a proper understanding of the teaching of that verse. Abraham had been justified by faith many years before the time that he offered up Isaac.

Genesis 15:5, 6
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul comments upon this in Romans 4:2-5,

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified entirely by faith, without the addition of works according to Paul. Paul goes on to explain that if it is by faith, then it cannot involve works in any way. Romans 11:6 says,

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace and works cannot coexist as regards salvation. It is either one or the other. This fact has brought about confusion as regarding the teaching of James. It appears to many that Paul and James contradict each other. But this is not the case.

James is speaking of a different portion of Abraham's life than Paul. James is speaking of that instance wherein Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

James 2:20-24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul is speaking of a time many years earlier when Abraham received the promise from God for a son, and believed it. This faith justified Abraham according to Paul. James is speaking of a day many years later when Abraham was called upon to offer the son God had promised. Think about what that entailed. God had promised Abraham a multitude of descendants through Isaac. If he killed him before he could start a family, then how could God fulfill the promise? So Abraham's act of offering, or 'work' was a visible demonstration of the reality of Abraham's faith. Hebrews 11:17-19 says,

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Do you see that Abraham's actions proved the reality of the faith that justified him? Had he not have had such strong faith in God's promises, he would not have offered his son. The 'work' was a natural conclusion of the faith. In other words, if someone has true faith, they will act upon that faith. Faith that does not spur one to act upon it is not faith at all.

So, Abraham's faith in God's promise justified him before God, while Abraham's act of offering Isaac justified Abraham before men, in proving that his faith was real. Notice that this is the context in which James speaks, showing one's faith to be real before men. James 2:18,

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The lesson here is that saving faith will spur someone to do good works. If a person's faith does not spur one to action, then one cannot say that they really have faith. A person only acts upon what he really believes. So faith in Christ alone saves us, and that faith will spur us unto good works. Good works are the fruit of saving faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice here that works plays no part in our salvation, but we are saved unto good works, that our faith should produce a walk. So the idea contained in James and Paul is that you are justified by faith alone, but saving faith will spur you to good works.

 

[Major]

I think I see what you're saying. That's an excellent question in fact. I don't know, but I sure will find out for you. I have a friend who's getting his PhD in theological studies--he may be able to direct me to some good info.

The question is what is to happen to someone like this--this is assuming I am correct about faith and works. If James is wrong and it's faith alone, then we can safely assume heaven immediately, without a doubt.

I'll keep you update and ask him tomorrow at church

MY dear brother..........the answer is staring you right in the face!!! You do not need to find the answer for me, I know the answer. In fact, You already know the answer my brother!!!

Now just for a second, consider what you are preposing. Listen....to your words and remember that I am your friend and I am not argueing with you............

Your words were......
" If James is wrong and it's faith alone, then we can safely assume heaven immediately, without a doubt."

IF James IS WRONG????

That can not possible be in any way. How can James, an apostle who received his teachings from the Master be wrong???
Nay my brother, it is us who are wrong and it is us who must come to the realization that the Word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. No errors no mistakes and no contradiction.

Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified by FAITH we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Logically, Biblically, common sense is screaming at you! The man is saved and goes to heaven, BECAUSE HE HAS BELIEVED UPON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

James is NOT wrong and Paul is not wrong. They are both right. Paul say that we are saved by FAITH through grace and NOT OF WORKS because of the simply reason that if salvation was by what we did, all we would do is brag about what we did do.

James says that faith with out works is dead. ABSOLUTLY CORRECT! Salvation produces works or it is make believe not real. James agrees with Paul and then says that because a man is saved he will have a desire to do good things.

James is NOT saying that our works lead to salvation!!!! He is saying that our salvation leads to good works.

Allow me to carry this just a little further. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, and salvation is no more by faith alone, we have then taken the burden of salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will always be room to boast and the that is exactly what the Scriptures clearly condemn.

Please consider these facts brother and what the Scriptures tell you. I too have many DR. friends, and associates with Phd's and I promise you that none of the things that they may say are more truthful than is the Word of God and they would tell you that as well.

 

[Major]

Here is my first post dealing with the practical aspects of James. I will not repost here the ones dealing with the dispensational nature of James. I will continue on that thread with those postings when I get more time to write.

One must put the James passage into it's context to get a proper understanding of the teaching of that verse. Abraham had been justified by faith many years before the time that he offered up Isaac.

Genesis 15:5, 6
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul comments upon this in Romans 4:2-5,

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham was justified entirely by faith, without the addition of works according to Paul. Paul goes on to explain that if it is by faith, then it cannot involve works in any way. Romans 11:6 says,

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace and works cannot coexist as regards salvation. It is either one or the other. This fact has brought about confusion as regarding the teaching of James. It appears to many that Paul and James contradict each other. But this is not the case.

James is speaking of a different portion of Abraham's life than Paul. James is speaking of that instance wherein Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

James 2:20-24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul is speaking of a time many years earlier when Abraham received the promise from God for a son, and believed it. This faith justified Abraham according to Paul. James is speaking of a day many years later when Abraham was called upon to offer the son God had promised. Think about what that entailed. God had promised Abraham a multitude of descendants through Isaac. If he killed him before he could start a family, then how could God fulfill the promise? So Abraham's act of offering, or 'work' was a visible demonstration of the reality of Abraham's faith. Hebrews 11:17-19 says,

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Do you see that Abraham's actions proved the reality of the faith that justified him? Had he not have had such strong faith in God's promises, he would not have offered his son. The 'work' was a natural conclusion of the faith. In other words, if someone has true faith, they will act upon that faith. Faith that does not spur one to act upon it is not faith at all.

So, Abraham's faith in God's promise justified him before God, while Abraham's act of offering Isaac justified Abraham before men, in proving that his faith was real. Notice that this is the context in which James speaks, showing one's faith to be real before men. James 2:18,

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The lesson here is that saving faith will spur someone to do good works. If a person's faith does not spur one to action, then one cannot say that they really have faith. A person only acts upon what he really believes. So faith in Christ alone saves us, and that faith will spur us unto good works. Good works are the fruit of saving faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice here that works plays no part in our salvation, but we are saved unto good works, that our faith should produce a walk. So the idea contained in James and Paul is that you are justified by faith alone, but saving faith will spur you to good works.

Really good stuff!!!!!

 

[steve_bakr]

I think this topic of Sola Fide has left me butting heads with most of the good folks in here. I have to confess I disagree with this doctrine. This isn't to say that I don't believe we are saved by our faith in Christ, who He is, and what He has done...but I don't believe we are justified by faith alone. (James 2:24, James 2:26, Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-17).

Though of course I believe we are saved by Grace alone. I certainly wouldn't disagree with that.

I am pretty much in agreement. Although, for ecumenical reasons I don't make it into a Protestant vs Catholic debate. I think it is helpful here to realize that faith or even belief in the biblical sense may not simply mean assent to a proposition but a much more profound orientation of our entire lives towards Christ. This orientation involves not just one decision but every decision. It is about the way we live our lives.

 

[aha]

I think this topic of Sola Fide has left me butting heads with most of the good folks in here. I have to confess I disagree with this doctrine. This isn't to say that I don't believe we are saved by our faith in Christ, who He is, and what He has done...but I don't believe we are justified by faith alone. (James 2:24, James 2:26, Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-17).

Though of course I believe we are saved by Grace alone. I certainly wouldn't disagree with that.

that will be Sola Gratia.... i think it will help differentiate what is Sola Fide with Sola Gratia....

as i see it Sola Fide is more on justification....

while Sola Gratia is more on salvation....

mixing the 2 does create confusion....

 

[aha]

Topic: salvation, faith, works...
then baptism?
interesting though, "baptism of desire"...
all here have been young once : young people usually recognize legalism faster than older people, i think : )

Expand on that.

legalism, substance over form... what is important is the substance, not the legal form
"baptism of desire" is a good example....
although, as posted here by many members, baptism has nothing to do with salvation....

am addressing the comment on age....based on my observation: younger people recognizes legalism quicker than older people...

 

[aha]

With due respect, that is why i think precisely Mr. Gene recognizes legalism when he was younger… : )

http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/are-you-sure-of-the-assurance.35629/#post-291024

 

[JustPassingThru]

Well, aside from Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura

Hey LS, I'm an uneducated man and I have no idea of what this means, however if you believe there is God's Truth outside of the 66 books of Canon, my dear brother, I must warn you, you are on slippery ground...

Gene, Gene the dancing machine, LOL, no I was different Gene, Gene the dancing machine, ...part of the therapy to regain my sanity and fit in with the human race again was to take on a new hobby, since I liked to dance and Western Swing was the rage at the time, that's what I tried, found it to be a lot of fun, advanced to be an instructor, hence I was nicknamed Gene, Gene the dancing machine, ...voilà, the rest of the story.


So, let's continue on with this desire of baptism doctrine you have proposed to it's logical conclusion, ...now correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that without faith and works no one can be saved and go to Heaven and spend Eternity with the Lord, so since Jesus promised the thief that He would be with Him that day, the 14th of Nisan, in Paradise and we read Jesus descended into Sheol, Hades, Hell, so then the thief was with Him in Paradise, then we read that after three days Jesus left Sheol, Hades, Hell an took those that believed in Him to Heaven with Him and we also read that since that day those who are the Lord's, when they die go to be with Him in Heaven, so the questions are,

Where's the thief today?
If he's still in Paradise, by himself and he has to do works to leave, how can a spirit/soul accomplish any works for salvation once they are dead? Heb 9:27
Since he can't accomplish any works to complete his salvation and Scripture clearly states after death comes judgement, was Jesus playing a cruel joke on him?

or, is he in Heaven with Jesus as Scripture teaches and you my dear brother have been deceived?

Where's the thief?

Blessings,

Gene

 

[LysanderShapiro]

MY dear brother..........the answer is staring you right in the face!!! You do not need to find the answer for me, I know the answer. In fact, You already know the answer my brother!!!

Now just for a second, consider what you are preposing. Listen....to your words and remember that I am your friend and I am not argueing with you............

Your words were......
" If James is wrong and it's faith alone, then we can safely assume heaven immediately, without a doubt."

IF James IS WRONG????

That can not possible be in any way. How can James, an apostle who received his teachings from the Master be wrong???
Nay my brother, it is us who are wrong and it is us who must come to the realization that the Word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. No errors no mistakes and no contradiction.

Romans 5:1
"Therefore being justified by FAITH we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Logically, Biblically, common sense is screaming at you! The man is saved and goes to heaven, BECAUSE HE HAS BELIEVED UPON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

James is NOT wrong and Paul is not wrong. They are both right. Paul say that we are saved by FAITH through grace and NOT OF WORKS because of the simply reason that if salvation was by what we did, all we would do is brag about what we did do.

James says that faith with out works is dead. ABSOLUTLY CORRECT! Salvation produces works or it is make believe not real. James agrees with Paul and then says that because a man is saved he will have a desire to do good things.

James is NOT saying that our works lead to salvation!!!! He is saying that our salvation leads to good works.

Allow me to carry this just a little further. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, and salvation is no more by faith alone, we have then taken the burden of salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will always be room to boast and the that is exactly what the Scriptures clearly condemn.

Please consider these facts brother and what the Scriptures tell you. I too have many DR. friends, and associates with Phd's and I promise you that none of the things that they may say are more truthful than is the Word of God and they would tell you that as well.

I'm not convinced of this, Major. Just because I haven't the proper answer doesn't mean I am wrong -- that would only be a logical fallacy. But you deserve an answer, as do I.

Wouldn't you at least be interested in hearing a response? I also want to hear the arguments against my belief. We should all know the cases against what we believe for the sake of having a stronger foundation for our faith. I don't want to be in the dark.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I am pretty much in agreement. Although, for ecumenical reasons I don't make it into a Protestant vs Catholic debate. I think it is helpful here to realize that faith or even belief in the biblical sense may not simply mean assent to a proposition but a much more profound orientation of our entire lives towards Christ. This orientation involves not just one decision but every decision. It is about the way we live our lives.

Welcome, Steve.

I absolutely agree that the most important thing is our relationship with God. This goes above doctrine and religion.

I never intended for a "Catholic vs. Protestant" debate to take place, but once in awhile when I answer a question in a forum that reflects Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura somehow, I tend to be the odd man out since this is a predominately Protestant forum. I believe there are only two Catholics here--myself and Glomung, and Glomung is much more of a spectator (in other words, he's much smarter than I am )

I never intend to bring a divide to this forum, especially since 1) having been a Protestant most of my life, so I really empathize and understand where they are coming from with their arguments, and 2) these are still my brothers and sisters in Christ. The last thing I want is to bring division. When I was a Protestant and would help my church with Street Evangelism, I remember thinking the Catholics were sitting ducks. The stereotype was that they knew nothing about the Christian faith, that they didn't have a relationship with God, that they ignored his commandments, that they knew nothing about the Bible, and that they may as well have been Atheists because they were so luke-warm. In fact, the question was usually "Are you a Catholic OR a Christian." (This is like asking me "Are you a Human or a Man?")

One reason why I joined this forum was because while I enjoy fellowship, I also want to continue to hear the Protestant's position on Christianity, and when necessary, hear the criticisms of Catholicism. At the very least, I can present an explanation. I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm a Catholic Apologist (but I'm far from the best of them).

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Hey LS, I'm an uneducated man and I have no idea of what this means, however if you believe there is God's Truth outside of the 66 books of Canon, my dear brother, I must warn you, you are on slippery ground...

Gene, Gene the dancing machine, LOL, no I was different Gene, Gene the dancing machine, ...part of the therapy to regain my sanity and fit in with the human race again was to take on a new hobby, since I liked to dance and Western Swing was the rage at the time, that's what I tried, found it to be a lot of fun, advanced to be an instructor, hence I was nicknamed Gene, Gene the dancing machine, ...voilà, the rest of the story.


So, let's continue on with this desire of baptism doctrine you have proposed to it's logical conclusion, ...now correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that without faith and works no one can be saved and go to Heaven and spend Eternity with the Lord, so since Jesus promised the thief that He would be with Him that day, the 14th of Nisan, in Paradise and we read Jesus descended into Sheol, Hades, Hell, so then the thief was with Him in Paradise, then we read that after three days Jesus left Sheol, Hades, Hell an took those that believed in Him to Heaven with Him and we also read that since that day those who are the Lord's, when they die go to be with Him in Heaven, so the questions are,

Where's the thief today?
If he's still in Paradise, by himself and he has to do works to leave, how can a spirit/soul accomplish any works for salvation once they are dead? Heb 9:27
Since he can't accomplish any works to complete his salvation and Scripture clearly states after death comes judgement, was Jesus playing a cruel joke on him?

or, is he in Heaven with Jesus as Scripture teaches and you my dear brother have been deceived?

Where's the thief?

Blessings,

Gene

No problem, Gene.

Sola Scriptura means "The Bible Alone." In other words "If it's not found in the Bible, then it should be discarded as false." I disagree with this because the Bible doesn't teach this. The Bible DOES point to itself as infallible and God-breathed and profitable for teaching (2 Timothy 3:16), but it doesn't point to itself as the exclusive source of God-breathed teachings. In fact, it points to the Church as the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and that we should also hold to the traditions, whether by the written word or by word of mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:15). Also, there are even a few things that we as Christians--both Catholic AND Protestant--endorse that is not found in the Bible. For example, you won't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but we acknowledge it to be true because it is. Church on Sundays is not in the Bible, but doesn't contradict Biblical teachings. However, and this one being very extraordinary, Sola Scriptura ITSELF isn't in the Bible, but it's also not backed Biblically.

This is why Catholics believe in the Bible, do NOT believe in adding or taking away from the Bible, but also acknowledge Church teaching as Christ as left the fathers as church authority in His absence. Keep in mind, this is a very general statement and shouldn't be mistaken for meaning that people can make things up or rearrange Christian practice -- this would be a tradition of man, which should be rejected.

Sola Fide is Latin for "Faith Alone." This is what we've been talking about this whole time.

You asked about the good thief on the cross. This is an excellent question because one could argue that this was faith alone that saved him. However, Jesus didn’t send him immediately to heaven, even though He could have. He let him suffer his temporal punishment for the wrong he had done. This is penance which does qualify as works according to the CCC in paragraph 1422. This is like what (I think) Brother Mike said in here: "...sin always comes with a price-either in the here and now-or in the here after. If God isn't chastening you in the here and now-you should be highly concerned." I fully agree with Brother Mike.

So to answer your question, the thief, as Christ told him, is in paradise.

 

[Mr. Darby]

I don't think you are bringing any division, Lysander. You are nice and respectable; and I appreciate your ability to handle a scriptural debate in an adult manner. We may, or may not, ever agree, but I have enjoyed discussing these things with you.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I don't think you are bringing any division, Lysander. You are nice and respectable; and I appreciate your ability to handle a scriptural debate in an adult manner. We may, or may not, ever agree, but I have enjoyed discussing these things with you.

Same here, Mr. Darby.

To quote St. Thomas Aquinas, "How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God."

 

[Major]

I'm not convinced of this, Major. Just because I haven't the proper answer doesn't mean I am wrong -- that would only be a logical fallacy. But you deserve an answer, as do I.

Wouldn't you at least be interested in hearing a response? I also want to hear the arguments against my belief. We should all know the cases against what we believe for the sake of having a stronger foundation for our faith. I don't want to be in the dark.

Now I am convinced. I am convinced because that is what the Bible teaches my friend.

Surely. A response is always in order, I am not sure why you would say that as I did not say goodbye.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Now I am convinced. I am convinced because that is what the Bible teaches my friend.

Surely. A response is always in order, I am not sure why you would say that as I did not say goodbye.

You are right that the Bible says that the thief went to heaven, but did he do it without works is not what's in question, especially since from what it seems, the Bible also suggests his penance (which is a form of works).

I think I'm answering the right thing -- I'm trying to defend my positions against 3 or 4 people who oppose it.

But you're right--you didn't say goodbye. I may have overlooked it as you saying "And that's that!" I'll take the blame for that one

 

[Major]

No problem, Gene.

Sola Scriptura means "The Bible Alone." In other words "If it's not found in the Bible, then it should be discarded as false." I disagree with this because the Bible doesn't teach this. The Bible DOES point to itself as infallible and God-breathed and profitable for teaching (2 Timothy 3:16), but it doesn't point to itself as the exclusive source of God-breathed teachings. In fact, it points to the Church as the pillar of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and that we should also hold to the traditions, whether by the written word or by word of mouth (2 Thessalonians 2:15). Also, there are even a few things that we as Christians--both Catholic AND Protestant--endorse that is not found in the Bible. For example, you won't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but we acknowledge it to be true because it is. Church on Sundays is not in the Bible, but doesn't contradict Biblical teachings. However, and this one being very extraordinary, Sola Scriptura ITSELF isn't in the Bible, but it's also not backed Biblically.

This is why Catholics believe in the Bible, do NOT believe in adding or taking away from the Bible, but also acknowledge Church teaching as Christ as left the fathers as church authority in His absence. Keep in mind, this is a very general statement and shouldn't be mistaken for meaning that people can make things up or rearrange Christian practice -- this would be a tradition of man, which should be rejected.

Sola Fide is Latin for "Faith Alone." This is what we've been talking about this whole time.

You asked about the good thief on the cross. This is an excellent question because one could argue that this was faith alone that saved him. However, Jesus didn’t send him immediately to heaven, even though He could have. He let him suffer his temporal punishment for the wrong he had done. This is penance which does qualify as works according to the CCC in paragraph 1422. This is like what (I think) Brother Mike said in here: "...sin always comes with a price-either in the here and now-or in the here after. If God isn't chastening you in the here and now-you should be highly concerned." I fully agree with Brother Mike.

So to answer your question, the thief, as Christ told him, is in paradise.

Brother......what Bible verse do you recommend that tells us that the saved suffer in Paradise?

Your comment was.........
" He let him suffer his temporal punishment for the wrong he had done."

I do not think that Mike was supporting "Purgatory" in his comments. It was my understanding that Purgatory was not a teaching doctrine of the Catholic Church. Has it now changed?

 

[Intojoy]

Peter did not want Yeshua to die for him.
Right after Peter proclaimed his faith that Jesus was the Son of God Jesus tells him plainly "I must suffer and die." Peter did not want Him to suffer and to die for him. Peter basically thought he would die to protect Jesus from dying, protect The Lord from harm. Jesus rebuked satan for entering peter's heart. If God does not reveal to us what Jesus had to do then we are like Peter not knowing the purpose of the first coming of our Messiah, we do not know of our need for redemption. Jesus had to come and had to die a violent judicial death in our behalf for us to be saved. Of course Peter later realizes this and rights his doctrine accordingly. The message of the bible is not advice it is news. News that Christ entered our world and took on our humanity. He bore our sins and died our death. He was resurrected for our life and is coming back for our glorification. All of this was done outside of any human element from me and I put my complete and full trust in His finished work of the cross. Tetelastai is the final cry from that cross by our savior and tetelastai literally means paid in full.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Brother......what Bible verse do you recommend that tells us that the saved suffer in Paradise?

Your comment was.........
" He let him suffer his temporal punishment for the wrong he had done."

I do not think that Mike was supporting "Purgatory" in his comments. It was my understanding that Purgatory was not a teaching doctrine of the Catholic Church. Has it now changed?

I suspect Mike didn't mean it like this, but this doesn't mean that the principle still isn't true.

I'm assuming you're not asking about faith and works, but the case for something like purgatory. I think we may end up debating this in a circle since didn't we talk about purgatory recently? One of the first underlining things that we needed to clear up was that Sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible. If one can't accept this, this I doubt one could also accept the case for Purgatory or for the Trinity (even though the Trinity IS embraced by Sola Scriptura believers while you won't find this word in the Bible either).


I actually really want to discuss with as it is one of my favorite subjects, but can we do it in order? This can really fry one's brain if we ignore certain underlining points.

 

[Major]

You are right that the Bible says that the thief went to heaven, but did he do it without works is not what's in question, especially since from what it seems, the Bible also suggests his penance (which is a form of works).

I think I'm answering the right thing -- I'm trying to defend my positions against 3 or 4 people who oppose it.

But you're right--you didn't say goodbye. I may have overlooked it as you saying "And that's that!" I'll take the blame for that one

No problem my friend. If you feel like you are being ganged up on, it is because a lot of people have passionate thoughts on this subject.

Of course, the question now must be......what kind of works could he do nailed to a cross and then death??????

There is that word "penance" again. Payment for wrong doing.......correct?

But what does the Bible say........

Because Jesus is both God and man, He alone is able to pay the price for our ransom through His sinless life and substitutionary death (1 Peter 1:18-19). Jesus, as well as other New Testament.

Mark 10:45........
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

1 Tim. 2:5-6........
" For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom"

Heb. 9:15 ...........
" For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant."

SIN was paid for by the Lord Jesus on the cross therefore there is no more payment to be made by the believer.

Lastly, this ransoming work of Jesus our Mediator and Redeemer means that we belong to God because Jesus has purchased us (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23). The result is a new life lived by the empowering grace of Jesus through the empowering presence of the Holy Spirit, so that we can enjoy the great honor of living in obedience to God so that He receives glory and we receive joy as we live in congruence with God and His purposes for us.