Conditions For Salvation
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M
Mr. Darby
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Didn't you read vv. 15 and 16? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
This is immediately anterior to the mention of Abraham and his works.
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
There is a scriptural answer you could give God to that question, and I think that is why we are all trying so hard to get you to reconsider your ideas. None of us deserve to go to heaven. That is why our works can contribute nothing to our salvation. We must stand before God entirely on the merits and righteousness of another. We cannot help ourselves at all.
Salvation / heaven = 100% grace indeed! BUT acceptance = 100% works. Unless we have faith, bend the knee, have a contrite heart and broken spirit...there is simply no salvation en-route.
Rom 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Psalm 51:17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise
Kind of like my wife can be confident I will take her home to my mansion on our wedding day and not leave her at church.
There is a scriptural answer regarding what is necessary for salvation, but there are also scriptural references that say that God is the one that will come to judge the living and the dead (2 Timothy 4:1, 1 Peter 4:5-6).
When you said "None of us deserve to go to heaven. That is why our works can contribute nothing to our salvation." you are still stuck on this notion that I am suggesting working your way into salvation--and I'm not.
I'm not sure how much more simply I can put it other than I believe (as does the Catholic Church as is where my faith aligns) that no one--NO ONE--can work his way into heaven. This isn't what faith and works means. When works is referenced properly, it is in regards to the actions through the Holy Spirit. But if I say "I want to donate to charity in hopes that it will bring me one step closer to heaven," then if anything, I've probably even taken a step backward because it's separating me from the right criteria of salvation which is GRACE alone, through faith, and faith without works is dead.
I don't mean to sound stubborn or unwilling to listen. If that were the case, I doubt I'd be here. I want to listen to all sides just as I'd hope for everyone to listen to other sides beyond their own (at least for the sake of them growing closer to God's truth). But I'll be honest, none of the arguments presented are new to me. These are the same arguments I had against the Catholic faith when I was a Protestant. These were the same points I read in Paul Blanshard's book.
Let's pretend for a moment--for argument's sake--that you are absolutely right about Sola Fide; we are saved by faith alone...if this is the case, and I also believe that we receive salvation through faith (though I believe our works is a fuel of our faith and vice-versa), then would my soul be in danger if I have the same saving faith? Keep in mind, my faith isn't divided. It would only be divided if I believed one had to work his way into salvation.
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M
Mr. Darby
Guest
Lysander, I understand that you are saying that we cannot work our way into heaven. But in saying that salvation is by faith and works, you are still getting works involved to some degree in the process of enabling a man to stand before God. Yes, God will judge the living and the dead. And if he judges us our works, the best of them will not be enough to meet his standards. That is why we can stand before only on the basis of another's works. Mix our own into the mix, and we will all be weighed and found wanting. If Jesus undertook to provide all that is necessary for our salvation, so that we are complete in him, then there is no room for our works in salvation at all. Grace means that a sinner is saved entirely by the works and righteousness of Jesus Christ. Anything more is adding our own filthy rags of righteousness into the mix.
People keep saying saved as if it means one will enter the kingdom of God. That is one big assumption.
To enter the kingdom of God one needs to walk as Jesus walked. The only way one can walk as Jesus walked is to have the indwelling of God.
The Holy Spirit teaches, and gives one the grace to walk as Jesus walked.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
One has to live the whole Word of God to enter into the kingdom of God.
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
Where God’s makes a home is the kingdom of God.
(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”
To enter the kingdom of God one needs to walk as Jesus walked. The only way one can walk as Jesus walked is to have the indwelling of God.
The Holy Spirit teaches, and gives one the grace to walk as Jesus walked.
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's loveis truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
One has to live the whole Word of God to enter into the kingdom of God.
(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”
Where God’s makes a home is the kingdom of God.
(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
I'm not sure I entirely understand your question. I can say that I believe saving faith is the realization that I cannot do anything to contribute to my salvation and that I must rely on Christ alone as my justification before God. Being justified, I will do good works as the fruit of the salvation I have already received. You works cannot be the fuel of your faith. Scripture tells us that even our faith is not of ourselves. Ephesians 2:8,9,
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You are trying to have things both ways. It is either all of grace, or it is not at all. Ponder Paul closely. Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
Paul makes it clear that there can be no admixture of grace and works.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You are trying to have things both ways. It is either all of grace, or it is not at all. Ponder Paul closely. Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
Paul makes it clear that there can be no admixture of grace and works.
Mr. Darby, this is my point. It is not trying to have it both ways. Having it both ways would mean 1) having faith proper, and 2) also working my way into salvation.
I was rereading The Council of Trent, and they worded it better than I could.
"but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."
KingJ was excellent in pointing out that Grace is Salvation, where as faith is acceptance. But faith is co-operating with good works -- not from our own being, but from the Holy Spirit.
My question was this: If I have a justifying faith, which I do, and it's not divided (in other words, I don't believe one can work his way into heaven--which is true), then where is the concern for me if I have this faith?
I'm concerned for those who believe all they need to do is believe and whatever they choose to do in life isn't important--because if what they do is separate from their faith, their faith is in danger of dying.
I was rereading The Council of Trent, and they worded it better than I could.
"but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace."
KingJ was excellent in pointing out that Grace is Salvation, where as faith is acceptance. But faith is co-operating with good works -- not from our own being, but from the Holy Spirit.
My question was this: If I have a justifying faith, which I do, and it's not divided (in other words, I don't believe one can work his way into heaven--which is true), then where is the concern for me if I have this faith?
I'm concerned for those who believe all they need to do is believe and whatever they choose to do in life isn't important--because if what they do is separate from their faith, their faith is in danger of dying.
Mornin' LS,
Dear brother, all I have been doing is using basic communication/listening skills, repeating back to you what you are saying, I'm not discussing theological ideas with you or entering into a philosophical debate, but rather trying to cause you to see what you are saying. You proof text in this Thread, "Conditions For Salvation," has been James 2:17, so if Salvation is Conditional, that is the stand you have taken, then I'm just showing/exposing to you what you believe, there must be works added to faith to be saved, all I have done is try to get you to look at your proof verse and tell me what works you are doing and when will you know you will have done enough, ...can't you see I'm just repeating back to you what you are saying, ...I don't know how to make it any more clearer?
Blessings,
Gene
Dear brother, all I have been doing is using basic communication/listening skills, repeating back to you what you are saying, I'm not discussing theological ideas with you or entering into a philosophical debate, but rather trying to cause you to see what you are saying. You proof text in this Thread, "Conditions For Salvation," has been James 2:17, so if Salvation is Conditional, that is the stand you have taken, then I'm just showing/exposing to you what you believe, there must be works added to faith to be saved, all I have done is try to get you to look at your proof verse and tell me what works you are doing and when will you know you will have done enough, ...can't you see I'm just repeating back to you what you are saying, ...I don't know how to make it any more clearer?
Blessings,
Gene
Hey, Gene.
I think you and I believe that Salvation of Grace is a free gift. However, we have to accept it. We also both agree that it requires faith to accept it. Although our difference is I believe faith is dead without works.
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
Belief in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation, Lysander. Yes, it really is that simple. (John 3:16) What happens to those who have believed and are saved, but do not live as they should? The scripture tells us. They are not lost, since salvation has nothing to do with works at all.
1. A sinning Christian can be turned over to Satan in this life for the destruction of the flesh. In Corinth, there was a Christian living a life that would have even been considered shameful among the heathen. What did Paul say concerning him? I Corinthians 4:4,5,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice what will happen to a man who has faith, but is not following the Lord's commandments. His flesh will be destroyed by Satan, but the Spirit will still be saved in the Day of Christ. Even though the works are not what they were supposed to be, the man is judged in his flesh, but is still saved, since salvation is not based on our merit.
2. A sinning Christian can lose rewards on the day of Christ. I Corinthians 3:11-15,
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Notice several things here that are clearly stated.
a. A Christian's work, not the Christian himself, will be tried by fire. The fire will determine that quality of the work.
b. If a man's work was of the right nature, he will receive a reward.
c. If God finds his work unacceptable, the work shall be burned, and the man will suffer loss regarding the reward.
d. However, the man himself is still saved even though his works were unacceptable to God.
Salvation is determined by whether or not a man has received Christ. Rewards following salvation are determined by the man's works, after his salvation. In both instances, the sinning believers are saved regardless of their works.
1. A sinning Christian can be turned over to Satan in this life for the destruction of the flesh. In Corinth, there was a Christian living a life that would have even been considered shameful among the heathen. What did Paul say concerning him? I Corinthians 4:4,5,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice what will happen to a man who has faith, but is not following the Lord's commandments. His flesh will be destroyed by Satan, but the Spirit will still be saved in the Day of Christ. Even though the works are not what they were supposed to be, the man is judged in his flesh, but is still saved, since salvation is not based on our merit.
2. A sinning Christian can lose rewards on the day of Christ. I Corinthians 3:11-15,
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Notice several things here that are clearly stated.
a. A Christian's work, not the Christian himself, will be tried by fire. The fire will determine that quality of the work.
b. If a man's work was of the right nature, he will receive a reward.
c. If God finds his work unacceptable, the work shall be burned, and the man will suffer loss regarding the reward.
d. However, the man himself is still saved even though his works were unacceptable to God.
Salvation is determined by whether or not a man has received Christ. Rewards following salvation are determined by the man's works, after his salvation. In both instances, the sinning believers are saved regardless of their works.
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Good man.......Bible verses that we can deal with. Lets see what we can do with these..........
1 Corth. 3:1o-16........
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? "
No my brother. Those verse are not dealing with a "stste of existance" where men must do something intoorder to get out of the place that they are in.
This section teaches that we as believers can work for a reward. We all agree I think that Salvation through faith should produce good works. When that happens the believers will receive Rewards that are built on the founfation of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is nothing here to suggest a Pergatory.
1 Corinthians 15:29-30
(RSV)
29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30 Why am I in peril every hour?
NOPE. These will not work either. If you will go back and read verse 15 - 28 for context. it is abundently clear that these verses are given by Paul so the we will know what the parade of the Resurrection will be. The whole 15th chapter is about the Resurrection NOT Pergatory. Paul is telling us that the Resurrection is part of the gospel, and in fact, there is no gospel without the Resurrection.
Psalm 66:12
(RSV)
" thou didst let men ride over our heads;
we went through fire and through water;
yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place."
No, that is not going to work either. Again it is all about context! Psalms 66 is about a Test of Faith. It was written to reveal faith and confidence in God that is like a child's faith to his parents. This psalm came from the greatest heartbreak of Davids life, the rebellion of his son Absalom. His son is coming into Jerusalem in trimumph and David in verse #12 is saying that his God who can exercise power is a God who can exercise mercy.
That speaks to mercy seat of God and that is the center of Old Test Theology. The mercy Seat on the Ark has now been replaced with Jesus on the cross. That is why George B Shaw could write..........."Come every soul by sin oppressed, THERE IS MERCY WITH THE LORD". Nothing here to indicate a sate of Pergatory.
Ecclesiastes 12:14
(RSV)
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Again, I have to reject this verse as a basis to believe in Pergatory. God will for sure judge every man because every man is a sinner and guilty before the Lord. Christ died for us and bore the judgment for us on the cross. He died a judgment death for all of us. Our sins are either on Christ and are paid in full, or they are still on us the the day is comeing when the bill will come due. Nothing here to use for a teaching on Pergatory.
So we still do not know WHERE the Catholic doctrine of Pergatory came from?????
So then allow me to say that according to the Biblical doctrine of Salvation, forgiveness is not based on the good works of the believer. For this reason, we know that deeds or works performed for those in purgatory are both unnecessary and ineffectual:
Romans 3:21-24, 27-28
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus… Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
According to the Biblical doctrine of Salvation, Jesus’ work on the cross (His blood) purifies us from ALL sin. For this reason, we know that there is not a lingering sin problem that must be taken care of in a place like purgatory.
Now if you choose to believe in Pergatory, note that it is a Catholic Doctrine NOT a Biblical one. That means it comes down to a choice of which is right. The written WOrd of God or the triditions of the RCC.
IF...IF you desire to know where it comes from, do a google seach for the name of "Semerimis, Nimrod, Tammuz".
Listen bro.......you can call me anything because I have been called the worst by the most.
What I am most proud of is the name........"Old fashioned Bible thumper".
Now there is one I have used a lot!!!
I would re-think that some KJ. The part about....."I like to think of having faith as a work in itself."
The RCC attitude toward works, is not being faithfull to your wife or doing the dishes or mowing the lawn. Just sayin.......
Lord knows that I love you and I am not saying this to be hurtful or confrontational as I detest both, but...............
what did you actually think would be the responce from a bunch of Protestant Bible thumpers on this Christian web site. Surely you read a lot of the posts before you joined in, especiall those from us old hardheaded "Bapticostal". I am sure you had some kind of expectation from what you read and personally I have enjoyed your imput on differing things.
Lysander........do not be discouraged or uspset at what you had to know would take place on a open forum dominated by Protestant believers.
If I went and joined a Catholic web forum site of which there many around and I made a comment that Mary has nothing what soever to do with any decision that Jesus makes and praying to her is a waste of time, How long do you think it would take for my mesaage acknowledge icon to lite up like a Christmas tree??? There would be one responce after another condeming or at least argueing their point of view. I know it would be coming and I should be prepared for it.
Well, that is exactly what is going on here.
Actually, I think that this has been a very cordial thread and you have been treated extremly well considering those factors.
Justpassing thru can speak for himself but from what I know about him, he was not laughing at you in anyway. I have found him to be honest, strightforward and alwys accomadating.
Friend, it's not the challenging -- I expect to be challenged...in fact, I like to be challenged of my faith. However, what I find disrespectful if this sort of "laughing" at one's position.
I very much disagree with yours and Gene's position on Sola Fide, and I'll certainly challenge in in the defense of the faith, but I can't imagine laughing at you guys or making light of it. I can expect someone saying "No, no--I'm not laughing at YOU, I'm just laughing at what you believe," but this doesn't really make a difference. In fact, it's actually my faith that I am trying to defend, not myself, so it makes it even worse.
I'll grant you that anyone laughing at my faith is a big red herring. If Gene was indeed insulting my faith, this doesn't mean he is now all of a sudden wrong and I am right...but shouldn't these discussions be done in charity and respect--not hostility and spitefulness?
Haha, but "Old Fashioned Bible Thumber" isn't bad. It means you are proud of the Bible. You understand what I mean when I say the term "Romanism" is different...especially since it's actually insulting my faith, not specifically me.
It's not about being politically correct--I really couldn't care less about political correctness--but if the term is intended to be derogatory and disrespectful, then am I in the wrong for taking some offense to it as it's regarding the most important part of me? Major, you're thoughtful in your approach...I imagine you can at least understand the sentiment and where I am coming from with this.
Pardon me for keeping this brief.
There seems to be still more confusion regarding what "works" means when it is being used. I know you are saying that you are saying it in the same way I am, but your explanations are suggesting that that is not the case. But also there seems to be even more confusion as to what Purgatory is.
In 1 Corinthians 15:29-30, Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly align to 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin. (I know the Maccabees is not in the Protestant Bible, but this brings in a whole different discussion. Let's stick to the subject of Sola Fide before we get into the 7 books). You're right that this is in regards to the Resurrection, but it's of the Resurrection of the dead. This is aligned with what Purgatory is.
Friend...the Bible IS aligned with Catholic doctrine. The Bible was compiled by Catholic scholars in the 2nd and 3rd century and approved for general Christian use by the Catholic Councils of Hippo. The first printed Bible was made under the Catholic Church--printed by the Catholic inventor of the printing press, Johannes Gutenberg. And the very first Bible with chapters and numbered verses was produced by the Catholic Church by Stephen Langton, Cardinal Archbishop of Canterbury.
I know I'm not getting into even more and more, and I'm not trying to side track, but in order to defend on case in regards to the Catholic Church, I have toe defend another part in order to allow validity. As for Semiramis, this is a completely different subject.