Creation -v- Evolution: For The Young People

Okay everyone, calm down. We need to be able to look at everyones opinion with an unbiased perspective, as hard as that might be. So give credit where credit is due, and correct when something is actually incorrect, but like Patriot said, use supporting documentation. So far so good with everyone. I just think we need to start setting feelings aside and looking at the facts.

Personally, creationism makes more sense then the theory of evolution because there is a missing link. Rationally...logically, I am going to go with what makes more sense. If you believe in God, you believe in creationism. However, if I can be proved differently, of course my beliefs and opinion on the subject matter will change. I have yet to see that proof, however.
 
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Jesus said it I believe it that settles it. evolution is done.
If Christ Jesus declares it and I argue against it, I can't be a Christian.....a Christ follower......not really rocket science.
Next topic?
 
calvin said:
Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Jesus said it I believe it that settles it. evolution is done.
If Christ Jesus declares it and I argue against it, I can't be a Christian.....a Christ follower......not really rocket science.
Next topic?
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Calv I heart you even more!
 
Here's the thing-Christianity & Biblical Creation are openly displayed as FAITH. Our faith comes from the Word; hearing of the Word. Christians accept this. Do I know & believe there is proof that supports Biblical Creation-Yes.

Do I know that there are other opinions/ theories out there: Yes.

Do I understand the concept of the theory evolution and recognize it as a plausible theory: Yes.

But I don't believe in the theory evolution. Believing in anything requires faith. My faith is secure in Christ. I am sorry you find that offensive.


...God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I am the way, the truth and the life.

Love
Jesus the Christ-Son of the Living God


The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.But God commandeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

With Love,
Paul-Apostle to the Gentiles
 
Couple things to clarify real quick:

By no means do you offend me by being a creationist. I was a creationist myself for many years.

I believe in evolution, I also believe God is the creator. They are not mutually exclusive.



lifeasweknowit: what do you mean by the missing link exactly?

Also, what if I told you that creationism is a fairly recent doctrine?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/creationism/#HisCre
If you read section 1 from that link, it will detail where literalism, and therefore a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 (which we call creationism) comes from.
 
It is a big read. It does not detail or chronicle anything other than the thoughts of some. Mentioning such personages as Origen and Augustine without providing quotes from those persons is nothing more than 'name dropping'.
A quote from the above supplied link: "Catholics, especially dating back to Saint Augustine around 400 AD, and even to earlier thinkers like Origen, have always recognized that at times the Bible needs to be taken metaphorically or allegorically."
Where is the quoted words of these two gents? How do we know which areas of the Bible these persons might have felt needed to be interpreted metaphorically?
Frankly, just because something is posted on the internet doesn't make it 100.00% error free.
 
That isn't just any online wiki. That's Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy... it is a true Encyclopedia (not like wikipedia), maintained by experts in their respective fields for each topic. I don't expect anyone to take their word for it based on those facts alone...

All of the citations in that section of the entry back up its claims. I don't have any online version of any of those sources, so I will give you some different ones that confirm the tradition of Origen.They include quotes.

http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/bible-interpretation.html This link centers around Origen

http://spectrummagazine.org/node/2126 here is one for Augustine
 
Humble_Servant said:
lifeasweknowit: what do you mean by the missing link exactly?
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Where did apes come from?

Didn't God say he made man in His image? Are you saying His image were apes? Doesn't the bible start off by him creating Adam? You're a Cristian but dispute that part of the bible?

I could understand your point if you said you were an atheist, but to say you're a Christian and to claim we came from apes bewilders me and seems very contradictory.
 
KingJ said:
Please explain how you see them as mutually inclusive.
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I believe God created the universe, He put existence into being through His Word. The universe He created has certain natural laws, and these laws necessitate that certain physical/chemical/biological events occur under certain circumstances, these events will lead to the formation of life, and eventually to sentient beings. Basically, God made life to evolve.

In Genesis it says "God spoke" things into existence. I think that is a weighty phrase, one with deliberate meaning. The word for wind and for spirit is the same in Hebrew: ruah. Ancient Hebrews believed that one's spirit was one's breath, or wind. So when you spoke, it was your spirit traveling outward projecting the message into being. So to say "God spoke" things into existence, it is saying God's breath, His spirit, is enacting His create-ive message through the creation of the entire universe. It is a message that is still traveling forward. Something that I think bodes well with evolutionary theory.

What I said sounds all mystical and weird, because it is an ancient belief. It's something that is taken from reading scripture, and understanding it in mental framework of that historical and cultural environment. I'm not trying to say everyone has to see it this way in order to be "right". This is how I see it, and I think it has added a depth to the scriptures that I couldn't live without.
 
Humble_Servant, I have read the articles at the links you provided. I don't see that either Origen nor Augustine appear to be arguing in favor of evolution theistic or otherwise. There is a lot of background information missing that has obviously shaped Augustines thinking, but that article does not tell us exactly what it was that he was reacting to.
I think the discussion at the end of the Augustine article says much about how the various corespondents understood the article.
From the Augistine article :
He later wrote a treatise, however, entitled The Literal Meaning of Genesis in which he vigorously defended what he took to be the "literal" meaning of the creation narrative, while also offering some guidance for how believers should approach scientific and empirical matters.
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So, he vigorously defended creation. That is interesting.
Still, Augustine was never regarded or accepted as an inspired writer, nor was Origen. We need to keep that in mind when we appraise Biblical truth.
 
calvin said:
Humble_Servant, I have read the articles at the links you provided. I don't see that either Origen nor Augustine appear to be arguing in favor of evolution theistic or otherwise. There is a lot of background information missing that has obviously shaped Augustines thinking, but that article does not tell us exactly what it was that he was reacting to.
I think the discussion at the end of the Augustine article says much about how the various corespondents understood the article.
From the Augistine article :

So, he vigorously defended creation. That is interesting.
Still, Augustine was never regarded or accepted as an inspired writer, nor was Origen. We need to keep that in mind when we appraise Biblical truth.
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I don't understand your point... Of course every Christian believes that God created... that doesn't mean they believe in the creationism of today. In fact, the recent emergence of the literal creationism was the entire reason of bringing up those guys in the first place. Of course they didn't advocate evolution, I never said they did. However, you will not find anyone who advocated our modern conception of creationism until after the enlightenment either.

Here is the rest of the quote: "For Augustine, the literal meaning of Genesis is in fact its authoritative meaning, but this has little to do with the type of dogmatic, chronological literalism some contemporary believers insist is the only faithful and orthodox way of reading Scripture."

In fact, the treatise being talked about by the author, Augustine says that everything was created all at once, and the 6 day format was just a structure in which to convey the message. I'm sure you can google it if you don't believe me. It was probably this framework that Calvin adopted and enhanced by saying that all matter was created at once, and then God manipulated the matter to create forms.

I don't just advocate evolution. I advocate that God created evolution.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Where did apes come from?

Didn't God say he made man in His image? Are you saying His image were apes? Doesn't the bible start off by him creating Adam? You're a Cristian but dispute that part of the bible?

I could understand your point if you said you were an atheist, but to say you're a Christian and to claim we came from apes bewilders me and seems very contradictory.
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I think some of my more recent posts about the non-literal and non-chronological interpretations of Genesis 1 speak to part of your questions, life.

I don't think we came from apes. I think apes and humans share a common ancestor, but not that in our specific lineage that our ancestors used to be monkeys... no decent scientist would claim that our ancestors are monkeys... that is a common misconception.

But to the larger point you're making: humans did evolve from a lower life-form. Yes the bible says that God made man. The bible does not say (literally) how God made man. We started as dust, and eventually became mankind. By what actual process? The bible doesn't say.
 
Humble_Servant said:
I think some of my more recent posts about the non-literal and non-chronological interpretations of Genesis 1 speak to part of your questions, life.

I don't think we came from apes. I think apes and humans share a common ancestor, but not that in our specific lineage that our ancestors used to be monkeys... no decent scientist would claim that our ancestors are monkeys... that is a common misconception.

But to the larger point you're making: humans did evolve from a lower life-form. Yes the bible says that God made man. The bible does not say (literally) how God made man. We started as dust, and eventually became mankind. By what actual process? The bible doesn't say.
Click to expand...

Ok, that makes sense...but what about the "God made man in his image" part?
 
Humble_Servant said:
I don't understand your point... Of course every Christian believes that God created... that doesn't mean they believe in the creationism of today. In fact, the recent emergence of the literal creationism was the entire reason of bringing up those guys in the first place. Of course they didn't advocate evolution, I never said they did. However, you will not find anyone who advocated our modern conception of creationism until after the enlightenment either.

Here is the rest of the quote: "For Augustine, the literal meaning of Genesis is in fact its authoritative meaning, but this has little to do with the type of dogmatic, chronological literalism some contemporary believers insist is the only faithful and orthodox way of reading Scripture."

In fact, the treatise being talked about by the author, Augustine says that everything was created all at once, and the 6 day format was just a structure in which to convey the message. I'm sure you can google it if you don't believe me. It was probably this framework that Calvin adopted and enhanced by saying that all matter was created at once, and then God manipulated the matter to create forms.

I don't just advocate evolution. I advocate that God created evolution.
Click to expand...
I know what I mean...why don't you?

Firstly, Creation says God created. It says that He formed Adam from the dust of the ground Gen 2:7, (OK, that might have been mineral rich dust), point is He formed the man from the dust, we are not told He used any form of executive prerogative to bring him about from a pre existing biped, quadruped, triped, monoped or indeed any other conceivable life form....Adam was an original. Throw out Gen 2:9, and when and where do you stop modifying the Bible? What else would you like to throw out? As an aside, I once thought that Adam was just the first bifurcate life form capable of communion with God. I really can't understand how I could have been so absolutely stupid.
In defense of the chronological literalism of the creationist, consider not Augustine, who godly as he may have been was not an inspired writer but rather consider Moses, an Arch-type of the messiah Exo 20:11
 
Humble_Servant said:
I believe God created the universe, He put existence into being through His Word. The universe He created has certain natural laws, and these laws necessitate that certain physical/chemical/biological events occur under certain circumstances, these events will lead to the formation of life, and eventually to sentient beings. Basically, God made life to evolve.

In Genesis it says "God spoke" things into existence. I think that is a weighty phrase, one with deliberate meaning. The word for wind and for spirit is the same in Hebrew: ruah. Ancient Hebrews believed that one's spirit was one's breath, or wind. So when you spoke, it was your spirit traveling outward projecting the message into being. So to say "God spoke" things into existence, it is saying God's breath, His spirit, is enacting His create-ive message through the creation of the entire universe. It is a message that is still traveling forward. Something that I think bodes well with evolutionary theory.

What I said sounds all mystical and weird, because it is an ancient belief. It's something that is taken from reading scripture, and understanding it in mental framework of that historical and cultural environment. I'm not trying to say everyone has to see it this way in order to be "right". This is how I see it, and I think it has added a depth to the scriptures that I couldn't live without.
Click to expand...
So when did God see evolving man as accountable for their actions and hence in need of Saviour? How do you explain scripture on Adam, Eve and the tree?
 
calvin said:
I know what I mean...why don't you?
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no need to be snooty... "I don't understand your point" was a polite way of me saying "you're argument is flawed".

calvin said:
Firstly, Creation says God created. It says that He formed Adam from the dust of the ground Gen 2:7, (OK, that might have been mineral rich dust), point is He formed the man from the dust, we are not told He used any form of executive prerogative to bring him about from a pre existing biped, quadruped, triped, monoped or indeed any other conceivable life form....Adam was an original. Throw out Gen 2:9, and when and where do you stop modifying the Bible? What else would you like to throw out? As an aside, I once thought that Adam was just the first bifurcate life form capable of communion with God. I really can't understand how I could have been so absolutely stupid.
In defense of the chronological literalism of the creationist, consider not Augustine, who godly as he may have been was not an inspired writer but rather consider Moses, an Arch-type of the messiah Exo 20:11
Click to expand...

"I don't understand your point" again. My argument was to say that our current literal, chronological creationism is a modern invention. By saying this, I am inferring that it is not a sound biblical doctrine. So, you reply to this argument by a literal, chronological creationism account of Genesis. How is that progressing the conversation, or addressing my point? What reasoning do you have to look at the bible literally? Especially when it is a poem? (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_genesis_1.html)

I provide a number of sources that support my argument that creationism is a modern invention. Now, I don't agree with Augustine's, Origen's, or Calvin's account of creation. My point wasn't to use their beliefs as my own, only to point out that NO ONE believed in modern creationism until after the enlightenment. That is my point... not that these guys have higher authority than scripture, but a matter of how to look at scripture, and that you're looking at scripture wrong.
 
KingJ said:
So when did God see evolving man as accountable for their actions and hence in need of Saviour?
Click to expand...
I would imagine when they became self-aware.
KingJ said:
How do you explain scripture on Adam, Eve and the tree?
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I don't know why I need to go into all of the details of my beliefs when no one has yet to defend even the premise of creationism. I'm not on trial here. If anything, I've proven my case and you guys have yet to put forth anything for yours.
 
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