Destiny Or Free Will?

Yes, we have free will, but man in his sinful nature would never choose God. It is only by His grace that we are saved, which he has decided whom He will save before we were born. We don't save ourselves, only God saves us. If I could choose to save myself then how would it be God's grace?
 
Apr 11, 2014
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Could it be that we are all predestined to be offered saving grace, if we would only accept it and submit? Just like if Elvis, for lack of a better example, wants to be friends with me. Are we necessarily friends? No, I have to want to be friends with Elvis, too, for us to be considered friends. It is God's desire that all be saved. So the offer of grace, (friendship), is there, but we must accept Jesus as our savior.
 

Huntingteckel

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I haven't really made up my mind on this yet. From what I've read I wouldn't say that I'm a Calvinist though. I try to just read the bible as much as you can and believe what it says. I don't read very much non fiction other than the Bible.

I guess I'm just afraid that I will be stuck on certain interpretations of verses or passages if I read too much of man's opinion of it.

Obviously discussing topics here is different than reading a book or something though because there are others giving input as well.
 
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Now for an opinion of God limiting His omnicientcy, (I made the word up, you may use it :) ). I do believe He limits it for this reason. I am a father of 4 boys, and when they do something extraordinary, my joy in their experience is that much greater. In the same way, God desires to experience our ups and downs with us which makes the experience worth having. He created all this for that purpose, I believe. It is like recording a football game while watching it live. The game is exciting the first time you watch. But when you watch the recording, the excitement is gone, because you already know what is going to happen. Now God can step into this created universe of His, if need be, and one example would be the Flood. This would also explain why so much time has past since Jesus returned to the Father. All the apostles thought the Second Coming would be relatively soon, as in before 100 AD. It is up to the Father to decide when the end of this world comes to fruition. Jesus said that it would be like the days of Noah, in that the evil desires and actions of man would be widespread again.
So I think God has wanted to see the development of Christianity, but beware, things could turn for the worst very quickly. So be ready. Even so, Lord Jesus, come quickly.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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Yes certainly.. But I did not understand everything you just said! How do you define predestination?
Well the term is only used a few times.. but the Greek word is used several times and is not always translated "predestination". But the image I would give that best explains it from my study of the Greek and the truth of scripture would be like a rail-road track.. It is a predetermined place and purpose. The tracks are "predestined" to one goal. what religion has made this word..is amazing in its error. one might even use the word pre-ordained?

P.S. Rav just got in from work, maybe tomorrow we will discuss this issue a little more...not really too awake right now...blessing brother :)
 
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If some want to claim they are "good" and can do good apart from the Spirit of God working what is good through them? Then I suggest that person has a multitude of scriptures they must reject or ignore. I know the scriptures alone are true and every man is a liar.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 
Jul 17, 2013
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If some want to claim they are "good" and can do good apart from the Spirit of God working what is good through them? Then I suggest that person has a multitude of scriptures they must reject or ignore. I know the scriptures alone are true and every man is a liar.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The saved man or woman is good because God made them a new creation. Hebrews 10:14.

In Galatians we are told that our new born human spirit has the fruit of the spirit. We are not robots doing God's bidding, He has enabled us to do good works and they are our own works. God prepares our way and gives us options but we use our new nature that is perfect in Christ.
 
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Yes, we have free will, but man in his sinful nature would never choose God. It is only by His grace that we are saved, which he has decided whom He will save before we were born. We don't save ourselves, only God saves us. If I could choose to save myself then how would it be God's grace?
If God requires faith and He does, then we exercise our will to believe/ choose Him.

But because there is no such thing as unlimited free will, we would never choose Him. So God decided to save some. He could have saved them without any faith but He chose to let us exercise our will and provided divine enablement for His elect so that the elect will respond in faith when they hear the gospel.
 
Both predestination and we having our own will are taught on the word and they are not contradictory in any way...as for being predestined both Paul and Peter qualify this say this is according to His foreknowledge...God foreknew those who would respond to His call or offer in some cases...this we know...salvation is ALL of God (He owes no man anything because all have sinned)...He speaks or we hear His word (His Spirit directly to our hearts at some moment, or comes through a person, preacher, or the word which we hear) and then the will kicks in...will we agree with Him (believe Him) and seeing we are sinners turn to Him (which then He enhances or gives us the faith that can save) or do we reject Him and His word (like Cain) and insist on being our own lord? He initiates (totally grace without which no man could be saved) but we receive or reject...but without His initiation toward us no man would turn...

If one is honest with the whole counsel of God we cannot allow one set of scriptures to oppose or contradict another...the puppet master predestination school (my own label) must reject or re-interpret over 70 scriptures...likewise the "hey what about my part" free will school must ignore or re-interpret another 50 or so scriptures...but I say, they both stand as they are the whole counsel of God (His revealed will) and even if we cannot reconcile them, all are equally true, both allegedly contradictory sets are merely two aspects of the one reality/relationship God sovereignly designed for His interaction with His human creatures...

In HIs love

brother Paul
 
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Sep 2, 2013
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The saved man or woman is good because God made them a new creation. Hebrews 10:14.

In Galatians we are told that our new born human spirit has the fruit of the spirit. We are not robots doing God's bidding, He has enabled us to do good works and they are our own works. God prepares our way and gives us options but we use our new nature that is perfect in Christ.
I agree we have been made "Partakers of the Divine Nature" This "New" nature is a product of the Spirit of God in us.

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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If God requires faith and He does, then we exercise our will to believe/ choose Him.

But because there is no such thing as unlimited free will, we would never choose Him. So God decided to save some. He could have saved them without any faith but He chose to let us exercise our will and provided divine enablement for His elect so that the elect will respond in faith when they hear the gospel.
Don't want to start another battle with you Intojoy... but just make this point? Salvation comes when we "surrender" our own "will" and accept Gods will. If their is a "act" of our will?...it is the "act" of surrender! Now all obedience to God is a continued "dying" to ones own "free-will" and all obedience unto Christ is to walk in Gods will and not our own.
 
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There are times when I know that God knew me before I even was..There are times when I see the path that He has planned for me, was a path that is based upon His eternal wisdom and His eternal mind. He sees the beginning from the end because He is not bound by this "temporal" realm, that we are bound in. Until one walks in the Spiritual realm long enough to see that there is a "temporal" realm (natural) creation and a "eternal" realm (hidden from the natural) ...they can never understand what "predestination" means...in its actual effect of being conformed unto the Image of Christ. I would agree with some of what I understand Calvin to have taught..but for the most part much of it is just "carnal" man, making an attempt to justify the flesh, through doctrines that have almost no consideration for the working of the Holy Spirit.
 
Feb 5, 2013
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There are times when I know that God knew me before I even was..There are times when I see the path that He has planned for me, was a path that is based upon His eternal wisdom and His eternal mind. He sees the beginning from the end because He is not bound by this "temporal" realm, that we are bound in. Until one walks in the Spiritual realm long enough to see that there is a "temporal" realm (natural) creation and a "eternal" realm (hidden from the natural) ...they can never understand what "predestination" means...in its actual effect of being conformed unto the Image of Christ. I would agree with some of what I understand Calvin to have taught..but for the most part much of it is just "carnal" man, making an attempt to justify the flesh, through doctrines that have almost no consideration for the working of the Holy Spirit.
God's revealed will is in his Word.. Whatever God will'ed for humans to know about Him, His attributes are already revealed in his Word.. There is no one who can understand spiritual realm beyond that.. I liked a lot the way Brother Paul put put.. Bible calls for man's personal responsibility.. A person is doomed to eternal hell not because God just forsake him.. But only because that person rejected the offer of salvation.. A person who is saved did not really choose the right path.. It is full and fully God's grace.. How these 2 work together.. It is beyond the reach of human mind

We define God's attributes with human wisdom.. Omnipotent - having unlimited power.. Here power is what we call as ability.. We are saying God is able to do anything that a person can think.. It is limited to what a person can think of.. Certainly God is able to do beyond what a person can think of.. But we cannot define what that is.. Same goes to Omnipresence.. Present everywhere.. Which places? There are certainly places which we do not even know of! So we will never have a full understanding of God's attribute in flesh.. So I agree that there is a Spiritual realm about which we do not have a full understanding.. However, I don't agree we will get to know more about it as we spend more time in this world.. A person can know more by dwelling more in the Word of God.. But there is nothing beyond Word of God.. Holy Spirit will illuminate the Word..

If God predestines path of a man, can he change it? If God predestines the destination, can a man change it? Does God predestine both path and destination or just path? The answers to these questions opens up the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism!
 
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God's revealed will is in his Word.. Whatever God will'ed for humans to know about Him, His attributes are already revealed in his Word.. There is no one who can understand spiritual realm beyond that.. I liked a lot the way Brother Paul put put.. Bible calls for man's personal responsibility.. A person is doomed to eternal hell not because God just forsake him.. But only because that person rejected the offer of salvation.. A person who is saved did not really choose the right path.. It is full and fully God's grace.. How these 2 work together.. It is beyond the reach of human mind

We define God's attributes with human wisdom.. Omnipotent - having unlimited power.. Here power is what we call as ability.. We are saying God is able to do anything that a person can think.. It is limited to what a person can think of.. Certainly God is able to do beyond what a person can think of.. But we cannot define what that is.. Same goes to Omnipresence.. Present everywhere.. Which places? There are certainly places which we do not even know of! So we will never have a full understanding of God's attribute in flesh.. So I agree that there is a Spiritual realm about which we do not have a full understanding.. However, I don't agree we will get to know more about it as we spend more time in this world.. A person can know more by dwelling more in the Word of God.. But there is nothing beyond Word of God.. Holy Spirit will illuminate the Word..

If God predestines path of a man, can he change it? If God predestines the destination, can a man change it? Does God predestine both path and destination or just path? The answers to these questions opens up the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism!
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Bro. Rav...not sure of your point? But be sure that the "Word" is a revelation of what is true in the Spiritual realm. Only those who are "spiritual" will have the true understanding of the Word. My point is that both "Arminian" thought and "Calivinist" doctrine are both full of error based upon the "natural" mind of man. That its "long past" time to put these things behind and to look in the perfect law of liberty according to the Holy Spirit as the ONLY true teacher.

The Apostles themselves had been taught the "scriptures" there whole life, yet until the Holy Spirit-the Teacher came upon them and took them into the Spirit realm..as to think "spiritually"...they where blind to the truth of the scriptures in large part.
 
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Obedience is required to walk the Lords paths, but His paths are not obedience to the "letter" of the scriptures..but to the "Spirit".

The obedience of faith working by love..now those who turn from faith and love? Have rejected the "predestined" intention of God.

"Free-will" describes disobedience and many are disobedient! "Surrendered" will describes obedience to the Spirit of God..and few will walk the "predestined" path that God has called them too. The Cross is demanded for the "free-will" and those who find life must first lose their own "will".
 
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Everyone seems to want to discuss this issue based upon "Calvinist" or "Arminian" terms...we all admit they both are wrong in part. I suggest that some of you guys, get out of the religious box that others have placed you in and trust that The Holy Spirit is the only teacher that God has given to us. The term "predestination" is not what Calvin taught the term to mean. So look at the term according to the whole counsel of the scriptures and not according to mans tradition..
 
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We wont except his will until He changes our heart. Therefore it is because of God choice to save us and not our own desire to choose him.
That is an act of surrender of owns own will to the Will of Another. It should never be defined as "free-will". For it is our own free-will that disobeys God not obeys. All obedience in according to Gods Will and not our own.

I know you are not suggesting that we cannot disobey God? My point is that all disobedience is an act of "free-will" "Free-will" is a horrible and unbiblical term as it relates to the truth of the Cross.