Destiny Or Free Will?

Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
I used to listen to this debate between Calvinism and Arminianism when I was in the States, I didn't feel either one was totally correct, today I personally believe that Calvinism is one side of the swing of a pendulum and Arminianism is the extreme on the other side, I believe the truth is in the middle between the two, ...God, being outside of time, can look down on the timeline of humanity and know/see who will accept the offer of His salvation and who won't, those that will accept His offer He intervenes in their lives to keep them from destroying themselves before salvation, those that won't it seems he blesses with material blessings more than His own kids Ps 73, ...I feel Ironside explained it best, ...before every human there is a door, above the door is written whosoever may enter, after entering, written above the door on the other side is foreknown before the foundation of the world, ...works for me.

I hear lots of talk about free will, my belief is Adam and Eve had free will, but it was lost to the rest of humanity because of the Fall, Scripture tells us Adams descendents we born in his fallen nature and image Gen 5:3 and Adam didn't have a free will after the Fall because we are told by the sweat of his brow he would eat his bread, that means work would be laborious, did Adam have a free will to change that, no, do we have a free will to change it or live outside of the curse, no. Scripture tells us we are in bondage to sin, so if we are in bondage to sin I don't understand how we can have a free will to stop sinning, ...in my life, before Christ, I realized some sin was wrong so I stopped doing it, but I just changed sins and started doing something else sinful, so can some one tell me where is the freedom of will to stop sinning, ...before Christ?

I believe, in one sense, Jesus spoke about free will when He said He came to set the captives free, I believe when it was the moment for me to be born again John 1:13, He opened the prison door (of not having a free will) and set me free (giving or allowing me to have a free will) to chose to receive Him or not.

...And for me that explains salvation between the two extremes of the swing of the pendulum.

After we are born again, regenerated, free will has been restored to us just like Adam and Eve had before the Fall, but that is dangerous, that means we have the freedom of will to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the tree of life, when we are born again sin has been dethroned in our hearts, that throne is left empty, we have the free will to chose who will sit on that throne, ...me, myself and I, that means I'm exercising my will to decide what is good and what is evil in my life, which means eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (and that always brings death), ...a carnal Christian, ...or if I'm wise I will allow Jesus to take His rightful place on the throne of my heart and I will be eating from the tree of life, walking in the Spirit and it's the Spirit that gives life.

Blessings,

Gene
 
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Sep 2, 2013
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I agree with much of the last post...but the truth of the Cross is not "free-will" it is a daily death to the "will" of man..and a daily living in the Will of God. Free-will is just a silly term to describe the obedience of the Cross, it does however describe the disobedience of man and the dead works of mans religion.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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If God requires faith and He does, then we exercise our will to believe/ choose Him.

But because there is no such thing as unlimited free will, we would never choose Him. So God decided to save some. He could have saved them without any faith but He chose to let us exercise our will and provided divine enablement for His elect so that the elect will respond in faith when they hear the gospel.
Now that is not quite right now is it?
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Don't want to start another battle with you Intojoy... but just make this point? Salvation comes when we "surrender" our own "will" and accept Gods will. If their is a "act" of our will?...it is the "act" of surrender! Now all obedience to God is a continued "dying" to ones own "free-will" and all obedience unto Christ is to walk in Gods will and not our own.
There it is "Into Joy". Now that is the right thing!
 
Sep 2, 2013
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If an army was surrounded by another and greater army, and they surrendered to the will of that greater Army? How could they go back to their homes and declare we have "free-will"
 
Apr 11, 2014
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Scripturally, we have free will to follow God's will or our own or other's including Satan's.
Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
I urge you...to offer your bodies>>>Paul says we should offer our bodies, a choice, free will.
He felt the need to tell these Christians to not conform to the pattern of this world...making a choice, free will.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind>>>Daily renewing, choosing, more free will.
Then you will be able to test and approve>>>Obviously comparing and making a choice. So it's pretty clear that even as believers we choose right living or wrong.
The battle between the Spirit and the flesh continues in us. Paul describes this in Romans chapter 7.
 

MichaelH

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Nov 27, 2013
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If you search the scripture on God dealing with individual men. Each has a plan, path, race, to run. Each man created for God, for his workmanship. Follow the plan, the predestined path and it's destiny.

Not find the Lord, not find the path, not seek the will, then it's your own destiny which never works out on your behalf.

God is no respecter of persons, nor did God create a image like him to fail and be cast into the lake of fire.

God's end from the start is according to his consul and spoken. How we fit into that overall plan is according to our choice of following that set path laid before us.
 
Sep 2, 2013
4,407
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Scripturally, we have free will to follow God's will or our own or other's including Satan's.
Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
I urge you...to offer your bodies>>>Paul says we should offer our bodies, a choice, free will.
He felt the need to tell these Christians to not conform to the pattern of this world...making a choice, free will.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind>>>Daily renewing, choosing, more free will.
Then you will be able to test and approve>>>Obviously comparing and making a choice. So it's pretty clear that even as believers we choose right living or wrong.
The battle between the Spirit and the flesh continues in us. Paul describes this in Romans chapter 7.
Well that's not "free-will" to obey Gods will is to "surrender" ones own will. Two cannot walk together unless they agree, it is God Will that that must be obeyed. "Slaves" of righteousness...is not free-will.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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If you search the scripture on God dealing with individual men. Each has a plan, path, race, to run. Each man created for God, for his workmanship. Follow the plan, the predestined path and it's destiny.

Not find the Lord, not find the path, not seek the will, then it's your own destiny which never works out on your behalf.

God is no respecter of persons, nor did God create a image like him to fail and be cast into the lake of fire.

God's end from the start is according to his consul and spoken. How we fit into that overall plan is according to our choice of following that set path laid before us.
That is the Cross, where a man must die to his own "will", he must surrender his own will and ability....to call the obedience of the New Covenant "free-will" is to miss the whole thing!
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
I don't understand this Mitspa,

Free-will is just a silly term to describe the obedience of the Cross,

I don't see how free will could be called silly, to me the restoration of my free will at my regeneration is my faculty I use to show my love to my Father and Lord, God didn't create robots that were programed to love Him, that's not true love any more than forcing my wife at gun point to say she loves me, God took a chance in creating Man, a chance that they would reject Him, even though He loves them so much, that's why the marriage between a man and a woman is a type or illustration of the love relationship between God and man.

My free will is the action, or acts, of my love for God, just like after years of marriage with my wife my acts of love are knowing what flowers she likes, or what is her favorite candy, or trinkets that flip her switch, ...so too with my Heavenly Father, I have learned His character from studying His Word, when presented with a test I have the choice to follow my will, my natural inclinations, the old carnal man, or I can use the lessons I have learned from studying my Lord and choose with my free will to please my Father, Jesus could say I do everything to please the Father, ...I can't say that, but that is the goal of my will, so I don't understand how that could be called silly.

Blessing,

Gene.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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I don't understand this Mitspa,

Free-will is just a silly term to describe the obedience of the Cross,

I don't see how free will could be called silly, to me the restoration of my free will at my regeneration is my faculty I use to show my love to my Father and Lord, God didn't create robots that were programed to love Him, that's not true love any more than forcing my wife at gun point to say she loves me, God took a chance in creating Man, a chance that they would reject Him, even though He loves them so much, that's why the marriage between a man and a woman is a type or illustration of the love relationship between God and man.

My free will is the action, or acts, of my love for God, just like after years of marriage with my wife my acts of love are knowing what flowers she likes, or what is her favorite candy, or trinkets that flip her switch, ...so too with my Heavenly Father, I have learned His character from studying His Word, when presented with a test I have the choice to follow my will, my natural inclinations, the old carnal man, or I can use the lessons I have learned from studying my Lord and choose with my free will to please my Father, Jesus could say I do everything to please the Father, ...I can't say that, but that is the goal of my will, so I don't understand how that could be called silly.

Blessing,

Gene.
The "restoration" of your free-will? Where does God say that we should have any will but what comes through the Cross, when we reckon ourselves unable to obey apart from His Spirit..working obedience in and through us? If you love, is it not because God has willed it? and is it not because He has empowered you?

Again, free-will is not a biblical term...nor does it describe true obedience..nor is a the desire of God for us. It is a silly term to describe the obedience of Gods Will working in man.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"this is not free-will"- this is surrender now! your own will..
 
Jul 17, 2013
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So if I understand you correctly I don't have any choice in obeying or not, I am a robot that follows His preconceived plans?

Gene
No because your will gets enabled thru election so you do the work after grace enabled you. That way God takes the first step of which you couldn't take on your own.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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So if I understand you correctly I don't have any choice in obeying or not, I am a robot that follows His preconceived plans?

Gene
Well I did not say that...did I? I said what I said....that the term free-will, is silly in relation to the Cross of Christ. That only when one surrenders their own will, do they find true biblical obedience.

What part of this scripture do you reject?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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No because your will gets enabled thru election so you do the work after grace enabled you. That way God takes the first step of which you couldn't take on your own.
I agree here in part...the will must be surrendered to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Surrendered will...not free will...not some election apart from the will..but surrender is the message of the Cross.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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See its almost impossible to have a real discussion on this issue because the "free-will" side is trying to defend that nonsense and the "election" group will not consider the will at all in there dogma..
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
What part of this scripture do you reject?

What Scripture am I rejecting???

And why do I feel like I'm being attacked because I don't understand your cut and paste, ...if you want to teach then follow the example found in Nem 8;8 read, explain and then help me to understand.

So now, what Scripture can you use to show me free will is silly without taking one out of context and make me feel attacked because I don't see it your way?

Remember, I've already give you this verse,

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Tim 2:24

Gene
 
Sep 2, 2013
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What part of this scripture do you reject?

What Scripture am I rejecting???

And why do I feel like I'm being attacked because I don't understand your cut and paste, ...if you want to teach then follow the example found in Nem 8;8 read, explain and then help me to understand.

So now, what Scripture can you use to show me free will is silly without taking one out of context and make me feel attacked because I don't see it your way?

Remember, I've already give you this verse,

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Tim 2:24

Gene
I have already made several points and the Cross itself is a witness against the whole concept of free-will...its just not biblical obedience and can only be a term that describes disobedience. As far as our conversation and the tone of it? I think when you start trying to put your own words into the mouth of others? You have moved yourself into the place where a rebuke is needed.

Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
 
Apr 11, 2014
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Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
I urge you...to offer your bodies>>>Paul says we should offer our bodies, a choice, free will.
He felt the need to tell these Christians to not conform to the pattern of this world...making a choice, free will.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind>>>Daily renewing, choosing, more free will.
Then you will be able to test and approve>>>Obviously comparing and making a choice. So it's pretty clear that even as believers we choose right living or wrong.
The battle between the Spirit and the flesh continues in us. Paul describes this in Romans chapter 7.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
"do not use your freedom to indulge..." and "called to be free". Freedom is free will to follow or not follow.