Different Understandings And Branches Of Christianity

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calvin said:
I think the question of Adolph Hitler repenting on his death bed would be rather moot?


Some food for thought:
2Ti 3:14. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
2Ti 3:15. and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17. that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

We have a wonderful treasury of Godly guidance in the Bible, let's not be dismissive of it in the least.
Is it so bad, so distasteful to be corrected by the counsel of the Lord?
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I will let the Lord counsel me, but I do not wish to take counsel from someone I disagree with. Would you?
 
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Abdicate said:
Seems to me you want to be less sensitive. I've heard it said, "if someone says something you didn't like, and you get angry about it, then they've spoken some thuth you can't handle."
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Well, that's possible, but it seems to me that I stated quite plainly at the start of the thread that I didn't intend this to be a discussion where people fought over their doctrinal positions. Surely you can see the frustration when people blatantly disregard that request.

Another possibility to consider is they've said something I didn't like because in saying so they have insisted they are right and I am wrong. That would annoy anybody.
 
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Ravindran said:
This is what makes Cross magnificent (for a lack of better word). Jesus bore our sins. Bible goes to the extent of saying He became sin for us. That would include the guilt of death of six million people, if confessed by the guilt. To say any sin is too big to be forgiven is same as saying Cross is not sufficient for certain sins..
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To use a different example than the rather broad Hitler one:

Jack Chick used to publish a Christian tract called Lisa. In the tract, a little girl, about 8 years old, is being sexually abused by her father, and her mother knows it's going on. In the end, the father gets saved and that's pretty much it. And that's considered a happy ending in this tract, and it leaves the little girl pretty much in the same place (presumably she's not being abused anymore, but what about all that happened before?)

And I'm sorry, but that is monstrous. There is no other word to use, it's utterly monstrous that the little girl's abuse is not dealt with in any way, no apologies, no atonement.

And THAT in a nutshell is why that's a doctrine I would never and COULD never get behind.
 
Abdicate said:
I see your point and I agree. I do not agree with 41,000 denominations - that's pride, not roles. Preachers, teachers, healers, yea... those are roles.
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I agree that 41,000 denominations are carnal.

What caught my attention was you mentioned Paulinians rather than Christians?

Thus, it reminded me that what Paul is exactly what is describing?


1 Corinthians 1:12-13King James Version (KJV)
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Well, that's possible, but it seems to me that I stated quite plainly at the start of the thread that I didn't intend this to be a discussion where people fought over their doctrinal positions. Surely you can see the frustration when people blatantly disregard that request.

Another possibility to consider is they've said something I didn't like because in saying so they have insisted they are right and I am wrong. That would annoy anybody.
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I can understand that. But it's like talking about the US government and throwing out the Constitution because it's "old". If you chuck the foundation, you're left with a different system yet someone demands it be called the same. Here's another example: you want to play softball and teams gather together yet one guy wants to apply the rules of soccer. You can't play nice if you don't have the same frame of reference. Without a common foundation - the word of God - you're left to man's desires and that only leads to falsehoods under the guise of truth. Christianity can only use the word of God, not tradition, as its foundation otherwise we’re all just Pharisees in actually the same old failed system with a new name. Jesus called them “white-washed tombs”.
 
aha said:
I agree that 41,000 denominations are carnal.

What caught my attention was you mentioned Paulinians rather than Christians?

Thus, it reminded me that what Paul is exactly what is describing?


1 Corinthians 1:12-13King James Version (KJV)
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
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Although, what I found interesting with Paul’s letter to the Corinthians is that:
He is reprimanding them from being divisive and carnal…
And yet, at the beginning of Paul’s letter: he addressed them as sanctified and called to be saints….
How one can reconcile that: being reprimanded from being carnal, and yet was addressed as sanctified?

I think that what Paul described in Romans 7 , this warring of the carnal and the spirit....


1 Corinthians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 7:24King James Version (KJV)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
 
Abdicate said:
I can understand that. But it's like talking about the US government and throwing out the Constitution because it's "old". If you chuck the foundation, you're left with a different system yet someone demands it be called the same. Here's another example: you want to play softball and teams gather together yet one guy wants to apply the rules of soccer. You can't play nice if you don't have the same frame of reference. Without a common foundation - the word of God - you're left to man's desires and that only leads to falsehoods under the guise of truth. Christianity can only use the word of God, not tradition, as its foundation otherwise we’re all just Pharisees in actually the same old failed system with a new name. Jesus called them “white-washed tombs”.
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I think we've all come here to play softball. It's just that no one can agree on the rules.

Don't forget we are all believers in the Bible.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
To use a different example than the rather broad Hitler one:

Jack Chick used to publish a Christian tract called Lisa. In the tract, a little girl, about 8 years old, is being sexually abused by her father, and her mother knows it's going on. In the end, the father gets saved and that's pretty much it. And that's considered a happy ending in this tract, and it leaves the little girl pretty much in the same place (presumably she's not being abused anymore, but what about all that happened before?)

And I'm sorry, but that is monstrous. There is no other word to use, it's utterly monstrous that the little girl's abuse is not dealt with in any way, no apologies, no atonement.

And THAT in a nutshell is why that's a doctrine I would never and COULD never get behind.
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David's life is the best example for this.. We all know what happened with Bethseebha.. In Galatians there is a verse which says, we reap what we sow.. The actions of us in our flesh will be reaped in our flesh.. The consequences of our sin will be only in this world when we confess our sins to Jesus.. Now the person who was involved in sexual abuse might face jail or he is already in jail.. But that does not have any impact on eternal life.. Jesus did not guarantee deliverance from consequences in this world.. But He deals with eternity. Also, it is up to God to show mercy and relieve a person from wordly consequences as well. That is not something we can demand from God. If a person is involved in sexual fornication, his wife might forgive him and accept or file for divorce. But if the sin is confessed, it will not be counted against the person for eternity.
 
Ravindran said:
David's life is the best example for this.. We all know what happened with Bethseebha.. In Galatians there is a verse which says, we reap what we sow.. The actions of us in our flesh will be reaped in our flesh.. The consequences of our sin will be only in this world when we confess our sins to Jesus.. Now the person who was involved in sexual abuse might face jail or he is already in jail.. But that does not have any impact on eternal life.. Jesus did not guarantee deliverance from consequences in this world.. But He deals with eternity. Also, it is up to God to show mercy and relieve a person from wordly consequences as well. That is not something we can demand from God. If a person is involved in sexual fornication, his wife might forgive him and accept or file for divorce. But if the sin is confessed, it will not be counted against the person for eternity.
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In the tract, there is no mention of jail, and I think you're right, it focuses entirely on the next world and not this one. But as much as I look forward to the next world, I treasure this one too and that particular doctrine seems to completely overlook things like retribution, works, and so on, which I think are very important.

We confess our sins to God. But I don't think it's right that we completely overlook the other people in the picture whom we might have wronged terribly.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
In the tract, there is no mention of jail, and I think you're right, it focuses entirely on the next world and not this one. But as much as I look forward to the next world, I treasure this one too and that particular doctrine seems to completely overlook things like retribution, works, and so on, which I think are very important.

We confess our sins to God. But I don't think it's right that we completely overlook the other people in the picture whom we might have wronged terribly.
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There is absolutely no question.. Love our neighbor as we love ourselves.. That covers it all.. And when we don't follow it, we have a problem.. That is why we have cross..

Let's consider this.. Paul persecuted so many Christians.. He had a great hand in the murder of Stephen.. In my opinion, he was one of the greatest Apostles.. What do you think about Paul? Do you see him as Apostle or murderer?
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
My wish for you Major is that you learn to accept that other people can have different beliefs and understandings about Christian matters than you do and it does not make them any less Christian. Once you accept that you'll learn no one has it in for you at all.
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My dear brother. You know absolutely nothing about me so as to be able to make such a comment. Just because I disagree with your comment you think I am questioning your Christianity. That is wrong.

Just so that you will know the facts, I have personally been involved with the local Catholic Church where we live where the Bishop here and I meet for lunch every Thursday. We have worked together for the last 15 years to maintain and operate a joint adventure where we keep a house for unwed mothers to live. He is one of my closest friends and if it was not against the forum rules I would give out his email for confirmation.

We also together, fund a house for pregnant women where they are counseled with and encouraged to keep the baby and give it up for adoption is they can not afford to keep it.

Together, we have worked in the Florida Anti-Abortion movement to save every single baby that we can for the past 15 years. We rented several buses back in 1996 and took several hundred Christians to the state capital for rallies and protests against abortion.

I respect him and his position and his faith and he does the same with me.

Another good friend of mine is the Rabbi of the local Jewish synagogue. We meet and talk on a regular basis and have worked together on several projects where we have worked to feed the hungry and homeless.

I hope this helps you to grasp the meaning of ecumenical affiliation and how people working together can help society as it struggles with how to do the right thing.

As always, thank you for your thoughts and good wishes and again, may the Lord bless you and keep you in the palm of His hand.
 
Abdicate said:
Seems to me you want to be less sensitive. I've heard it said, "if someone says something you didn't like, and you get angry about it, then they've spoken some thuth you can't handle."
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Yes sir.....I have heard that same statement. It has happened to me more times than I can remember.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
I think we've all come here to play softball. It's just that no one can agree on the rules.

Don't forget we are all believers in the Bible.
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I see what you say, but I do not believe you do trust what the word of God as truth. A lot of things you've said don't jive with the word and when pointed out you take great offense. All I'm saying is, if you use the word of God as your basis for your point of view, though you may still have detractors, you'll have more ground to stand on. For example, you don't call yourself "saved" but that's the terminology Jesus used as well as "born again". It's not a Baptist or pentecostal "buzzword" it's in the word. If the word of God says that He loves you, you can intellectually believe that, but in the heart you may not. This creates an issue within that only you can deal with. That generates frustration which can lead to bitterness. God doesn't want that for you, so you have to decide (or as the word says, be fully persuaded) that the word of God is true no matter what I believe, think or experience. That's not easy to do. Sure people use the word like a bully club, but if you're grounded in the truth of God's word, you know the truth and their misuse can't affect you.
 
Abdicate said:
I see what you say, but I do not believe you do trust what the word of God as truth. A lot of things you've said don't jive with the word and when pointed out you take great offense. All I'm saying is, if you use the word of God as your basis for your point of view, though you may still have detractors, you'll have more ground to stand on. For example, you don't call yourself "saved" but that's the terminology Jesus used as well as "born again". It's not a Baptist or pentecostal "buzzword" it's in the word. If the word of God says that He loves you, you can intellectually believe that, but in the heart you may not. This creates an issue within that only you can deal with. That generates frustration which can lead to bitterness. God doesn't want that for you, so you have to decide (or as the word says, be fully persuaded) that the word of God is true no matter what I believe, think or experience. That's not easy to do. Sure people use the word like a bully club, but if you're grounded in the truth of God's word, you know the truth and their misuse can't affect you.
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Well said my brother! Well said.
 
Abdicate said:
I see what you say, but I do not believe you do trust what the word of God as truth. A lot of things you've said don't jive with the word and when pointed out you take great offense.
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Yes, I do take great offense when someone tells me that I don't trust the word of God as truth when I simply have a different understanding of it than you do. And that's what people like you and Major just never get. You never see it. You never acknowledge it. But isn't it interesting to you that I do not do the same things? Do you ever see me come to you and say that because you say the Sinner's Prayer it means that you're not true Christians? And yet it's perfectly acceptable for you to tell me that because I don't prematurely call myself "saved" because I'm not the one to do the saving and that I think that happens after I die, that I'm somehow ignoring God's word. Guess what? That is offensive. And doubly so because you and Major can do it, but I can't.
Abdicate said:
All I'm saying is, if you use the word of God as your basis for your point of view, though you may still have detractors, you'll have more ground to stand on. For example, you don't call yourself "saved" but that's the terminology Jesus used as well as "born again". It's not a Baptist or pentecostal "buzzword" it's in the word.
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Over and over you also miss the point that although I'm a Christian I am not a "Bible-only" Christian. Do you know what that means? It means that while YOU have chosen to use ONLY the words of the Bible as "the word of God", I go to two other sources, namely church teachings and sacred traditions. What you're essentially doing is demanding that I play by your rules of Christianity and discard my own. And again, do you see me doing the same thing to you? Do you see me telling you that unless you have the deuterocanonical texts in your Bible, it's not a real Bible?

As for me not being comfortable calling myself "saved," why do you single me out amongst the millions of other Christians who likewise do not? All the 1 BILLION Catholics out there think they are saved after a lifelong pursuit of salvation, not at some random point in time when we read the Sinner's Prayer off a piece of paper. "Born again" - yes. We are born again. But again, we understand what that means DIFFERENTLY. I was "born again" at the time of my baptism as an infant. Don't agree? That's your right. But does it give you the right to tell me that I don't trust God, don't follow His word, or any of the equally offensive things Major has tossed out? If you're telling me that I don't trust God for saying these things, you are ALSO saying you don't think ANY Catholics trust God either. I'm only saying what I've been taught, nothing controversial.

And yes it IS YOUR RIGHT to disagree. On a forum such as this one, I only wish you could do so respectfully. We are not all fundamentalist Christians, this is NOT a fundamentalist Christian forum. It is a CHRISTIAN FORUM.
 
PeaceLikeaRiver said:
Yes, I do take great offense when someone tells me that I don't trust the word of God as truth when I simply have a different understanding of it than you do. And that's what people like you and Major just never get. You never see it. You never acknowledge it. But isn't it interesting to you that I do not do the same things? Do you ever see me come to you and say that because you say the Sinner's Prayer it means that you're not true Christians? And yet it's perfectly acceptable for you to tell me that because I don't prematurely call myself "saved" because I'm not the one to do the saving and that I think that happens after I die, that I'm somehow ignoring God's word. Guess what? That is offensive. And doubly so because you and Major can do it, but I can't.

Over and over you also miss the point that although I'm a Christian I am not a "Bible-only" Christian. Do you know what that means? It means that while YOU have chosen to use ONLY the words of the Bible as "the word of God", I go to two other sources, namely church teachings and sacred traditions. What you're essentially doing is demanding that I play by your rules of Christianity and discard my own. And again, do you see me doing the same thing to you? Do you see me telling you that unless you have the deuterocanonical texts in your Bible, it's not a real Bible?

As for me not being comfortable calling myself "saved," why do you single me out amongst the millions of other Christians who likewise do not? All the 1 BILLION Catholics out there think they are saved after a lifelong pursuit of salvation, not at some random point in time when we read the Sinner's Prayer off a piece of paper. "Born again" - yes. We are born again. But again, we understand what that means DIFFERENTLY. I was "born again" at the time of my baptism as an infant. Don't agree? That's your right. But does it give you the right to tell me that I don't trust God, don't follow His word, or any of the equally offensive things Major has tossed out? If you're telling me that I don't trust God for saying these things, you are ALSO saying you don't think ANY Catholics trust God either. I'm only saying what I've been taught, nothing controversial.

And yes it IS YOUR RIGHT to disagree. On a forum such as this one, I only wish you could do so respectfully. We are not all fundamentalist Christians, this is NOT a fundamentalist Christian forum. It is a CHRISTIAN FORUM.
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Ok, just trying to help you understand. The word of God says the traditions of man are wrong, Col 2:8. What do you do with that verse? I'm not saying believe ME and MY way, I'm saying, all "Christian" denominations exist because they started with Christ and their beliefs have become warped over time by man's corruption. I'm only saying go back to the original Source. So because I say use the word of God that makes it "My Religion" or "My Way"? I'm saying let's stick to the word of God so was can communicate, on the same page, but you wish to stick with man's word rather than God's word. So be it. That's your right. I'm just a sign post and I'm telling you the bridge ahead is out and you blaming me for the word God published. You're problem isn't with me or Major. Be at peace.
 
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