Discerning spirits

[Ginger]

Well, that's not entirely accurate....

All true Christians adhere to the same set of essential doctrines that are clearly spelled out in the Holy Scriptures. It is what defines us as "Christian", therefore, if someone does not agree with these basic tenents, he or she is not really a Christian by definition.

Within Christianity there are only minor differences that according to Scripture are not worth arguing over. Any major diference is a case of True Christianity vs a cheap immitation of Christianity or a pseudo-christianity.

For example, believing Jesus is the Son of God, vs believing Jesus was just a good man, a prophet of sorts. That's a defining factor. The first group are Christian, but the second group only claims to be Christian.
In contrast, there are petty things people argue over causing division when these issue have no bearing on our salvation. If it doesn't change who Jesus is, if it doesn't change his purpose, if it doesn't change who we are in Christ Jesus, then it is really irrelevent.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Of course man can Judge things and rightly so;.. but only the things of earth not things of heaven as is Salvation..

"Parable of the fruit tree"...Where man can judge all the fruits of a tree, as if good or bad. But man cannot judge the tree..Judging trees and or people as to salvation is for God alone to Judge...

Let me repeat again the scripture... as Christians, " We may judge all things, and yet be judged of no man"...

So all other Christians even in this forum, may judge all my things, and yet since I am Christian, they cannot then Judge me, but only my fruits, and know me by my fruits...

Saul of tarsus, had bad fruit, who persecuted and killed other Christians....But this man was beloved by God, and became Paul, disciple of Christ.. God sees not as man sees, God judges the inner hearts of men. Man cannot judge the hearts of men, which God alone may judge.

We may judge mans fruits alone, of deeds, words and actions...Leaving who is Saved or true Christian with Salvation unto God where it belongs. None of men, are saved of themselves but by Grace..

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.

 

[Ginger]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Of course man can Judge things and rightly so;.. but only the things of earth not things of heaven as is Salvation..

"Parable of the fruit tree"...Where man can judge all the fruits of a tree, as if good or bad. But man cannot judge the tree..Judging trees and or people as to salvation is for God alone to Judge...

Let me repeat again the scripture... as Christians, " We may judge all things, and yet be judged of no man"...

So all other Christians even in this forum, may judge all my things, and yet since I am Christian, they cannot then Judge me, but only my fruits, and know me by my fruits...

Saul of tarsus, had bad fruit, who persecuted and killed other Christians....But this man was beloved by God, and became Paul, disciple of Christ.. God sees not as man sees, God judges the inner hearts of men. Man cannot judge the hearts of men, which God alone may judge.

We may judge mans fruits alone, of deeds, words and actions...Leaving who is Saved or true Christian with Salvation unto God where it belongs. None of men, are saved of themselves but by Grace..

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.

I agree 100% The unbelieving like to try to silence us by saying things like, "You're a Christian and you're not supposed to judge." But that is not true. We are commanded to judge right from wrong . Eze says if we know someone is doing wrong and say nothing to disuade him, then we are also guilty!

First, the question as to whether someone is a Christian or not, should not be confused with trying to discern whether or not someone is saved - I stay clear of that question as only God knows the heart. It would be a sin for one of us to make a declaration on someone's salvation.
As for being Christian, there are certain truths that define Christianity. So, again, if a person doesn't adhere to these basic truth's, then that person is not a Christian by definition.

If I say I am a vegetarian, but eat prime rib every Friday night, then I am not a vegetarian! If I say I am Christian, but don't believe the basic fundamental doctrines of Christianity, then I am not really a Christian!
It's as simple as that!

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

If I may disagree about saying to any one, " your not Christians". as related unto saying " your not Saved"..to me both comments, are about the Tree or the person. Not speaking to the persons fruits alone.Saying this fruit is bad and that fruit, meaning the Tree is not Christian. Other then Knowing, its a claimed Christian tree, with some bad fruits. One cannot claim Christ, and be a tree with only bad fruit..

If by the merit we judge so are we so judge by God... If we then Judge another as to being Christian or not. Then God will use this same standard against us. Yes Christians do err, and do things avowed Christians should not do, which we all do err...We can Judge these things, and comment and counsel unto them; that these things could put salvation in peril...But to say any evil will make another not Christian, is to Judge the person or the tree..

If I may speak to Mark 9: 38-39. Where a person was casting out devils in Jesus name; John sought Jesus to "forbade them", for they were not with Jesus or disciples. Jesus told John to " forbid them not" Even if a avowed Christian is not perfect, they are with us and not against us. We can and should counsel them as to their Bad fruit or towards good fruit, yet respect the tree and person Claiming to be a Christian...

In my opinion, the worst thing a Christian can do, is to "offend a little one" another causing a loss of faith and salvation...I believe the point is, to do no harm....!!! If a sinner claims Christ, he still has hope; which we should not forbid or discourage his path to find Jesus. We may only be an example of Gods love and Charity, that they might see, come into the light and be healed....

I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it..

 

[Dok]

1 John 3 Commentary ~ straight from The Word ! ! !

God has granted us the right to be known as His children. Wow! And that we are! Other folks don’t understand that because they don’t know Jesus and His plan of salvation. Sad. One of the great things we know about is that when He comes in the Rapture we’ll SEE Him, and we’ll be caught up in our glorified bodies, right on up into Heaven, just like Him. Is that wonderful, or what? We all need to be ready for Him to call us up there at any time. It’s a good idea (a VERY good idea) to not be hanging out in sin. We’ve got no business doing that! Jesus came and offered Himself on the Cross, getting rid of sin. Folks who come to Him for salvation don’t continue to live in or dwell on sin; on the contrary, they need to spend their time rejoicing, thanking Him. It is highly doubtful that anyone who claims to be a Christian and continues leading a sin-filled life was ever saved in the first place. There are some folks who claim they are Christian but who have a horrible potty mouth. I think they need to open their Bible and get back in church!

We simply can’t permit others to turn us away from God’s Truth found only in Jesus. Folks who love the Lord live their lives in obedience to Him. They’re always trying their best to walk in his footsteps. If you see someone who isn’t behaving like that, chances are he or she is walking in the footsteps of the devil. Jesus came to box up that jerk and ship him out!

After all, the Holy Spirit occupies every authentically born-again Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. People occupied like that don’t go around deliberately sinning on a regular basis, and they don’t refuse to love family and friends. HE empowers us to live righteously. Do you have a friend who badmouths family and friends? You may want to speak to him or her, suggesting they read John 14:6, John 3:3, and Romans 10:8-13, John 5:24. Christian or not, maybe they just need to get back on track.

Like Cain, who killed his brother, folks get caught up in sin. What is sin? Disobedience. Failure to love others like God loves us. What does scripture tell us? Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. Folks who live for Jesus are identifiable. Their first and foremost contact with others is in a spirit of love. That’s a good indicator that they are going to live with Jesus forever. Folks who dwell on hate are just like murderers. What are the chances they are really born again? Whoa!

Realizing that Jesus paid our sin-debt in full is sufficient reason to live for Him daily. We need to reach out to family and friends, in times of need, and just to say “I love you” from time-to-time. Real love is “Agape.” Agape means “God’s Love.” That’s the highest form of love there is. Walk in His love and you’ll share it with others. That extends to ourselves, as well. God can take away our doubts and our fears when we walk with Him ~ Hallelujah! We don’t need to be putting ourselves down after that.

Keep this in mind: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Love one another. Keep the commands Jesus shared with us: Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself. That’s how we experience and share His magnificent blessings, not with intellectualism.

1 John 3 is a great chapter. Read it over again in light of what is written above. Share this with family and friends after you write in on your heart.

 

[Ginger]

Well, I know a man who claims to be a Christian but he doesn't even believe in God at all. He says there is no real Being, but rather "god" is just a descriptive word we use to make us feel better about our lives and deaths. He teaches this to others, which is why we have so many screwed up preachers these days.

Whether he will go to Jesus or to hell, I cannot say, but I can say he is not a Christian.
Or do you think a muslim, or a buddhist can be called a Christian? Surely God can reach out to them and save them as easily as anyone else, but being saved is not what makes you a Christian. Being a Christian means you adhere to specific beliefs. Claiming the title "christian" does not save anyone, so acknowledging that people who worship allah and follow Muhammad as their prophet, is not a judgment on their salvation, but a clear statement of fact!

However, I did not say I go around telling people they are or are not a Christian. I said not everyone who claims to be is.

And these people who claim to be Christian but reject the very basis of the Christian faith do great harm to our reputation. Not to mention the thousands and tens of thousands of people many of them lead astray.

Ginger

 

[Ginger]

If I may speak to Mark 9: 38-39. Where a person was casting out devils in Jesus name; John sought Jesus to "forbade them", for they were not with Jesus or disciples. Jesus told John to " forbid them not" Even if a avowed Christian is not perfect, they are with us and not against us. .....

That verse says nothing about whether the person was perfecrt or not ( Jesus 12 disciples were obviously not perfect). It simply says someone the disciples did not know was casting out demons in Jesus' name.

Here's something to think about: Acts 19:
13 Then some itinerant Jewish exorcists tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits, saying, "I adjure you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches."14 When the seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish high priest, tried to do this,15 the evil spirit said to them in reply, "Jesus I recognize, Paul I know, but who are you?"16 The person with the evil spirit then sprang at them and subdued them all. He so overpowered them that they fled naked and wounded from that house.

 

[mistmann]

I have not tagged this to any specific person or comment because it is simply me adding some thoughts to the discussion.

Since the Law of Moses the Lord has made a clear distinction between intentional and unintentional sin. You will note that under the Mosaic Law unintentional sin can be atoned for and forgiven. The sacrifices (sin offering) were for unintentional sin only.THIS is the sin for which Jesus atoned on the cross. However the penalty for INTENTIONAL sin was death without forgiveness. Under the Mosaic Law there was no atonement for deliberate sin and rebellion against the Law of God.

This is the point the writer of Hebrews was making when he said:-

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

We too must be careful to make that same distinction. Is this person willfully sinning and/or not regarding as sin that which the Lord has declared as sin? Or is this person sinning without realizing it or perhaps is struggling within themselves against their sin nature as Paul struggled and so eloquently described. Such people may sin BUT they do not WANT to sin but to be rid of the sin that ensnares them. Such people do not want to walk in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit and are at war with the nature of their own flesh. They require our love and help not our condemnation.

As to those who call themselves "Christian" but neither obey Christ nor abide by the word of The Lord we cannot control what they call themselves but we DO have an obligation to those new to or weak in the faith or those seeking the Lord to make a clear DISTINCTION between those who teach, preach, and live according to what is actually written in the Bible and those who do not. I for one make it clear I have nothing in common with and no fellowship with those who do not teach, preach and SEEK to live according to the ONE AND ONLY word of MY Lord and Saviour King regardless of what they may call themselves. I, for certain, will not call them "brothers and sisters in Christ" but rather disown them before others as Christ indicated He would also.

As to salvation only the Lord knows who HE will and will not save. BUT this HE has taught me and PROMISED me - I WILL know the tree I am dealing with by the fruit it bears. In this way the Lord has given even me the ability to discern the true nature of the "trees" I meet and deal with.

Just some thoughts to add to the mix.
Regards Misty.

 

[Ginger]

May I add, John 7:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

As Christians we should be able to sense or discern between what appears good at first glance and what is truly good. That's the Holy Spirit working in us.

We are already living in a time when good is called evil and evil is called good....

 

[mistmann]

Regarding what others may do both Jesus and Paul made it clear that if they are teaching and preaching the TRUTH about the Lord and about Jesus then they are serving the will of the Lord regardless of who they are or why they are. As Paul pointed out whether out of love or out of spite they teach and make known the TRUTH then the TRUTH is preached and made known as it is the will of the Lord to do.

 

[Ginger]

Are you arguing with me Misty? Because I am agreeing with you.

Even my post about English vs Greek grammar was an acknowledgement. That opening line was only because people insist one thing or another means something based on the English translation, when the original was not written in English. They even use the same faulty argument "all [English] translations say the same thing" Even if the translated is direct, translating each word into Eglish as it was written, that does not guarantee the meaning will not be altered because of grammar and colloquialisms of the Biblical era

I liked the way you explained it, but I believe, your argument about the would fail in most instances since the rules of English grammar do not apply in the Greek. That is the point I was making!

To prove my point, all you have to do is talk with JW's. They apply English grammar all the time to deny Jesus was anything more than man - just like everyone else ever born.

But, in these two instances, I agree with you, Misty.

 

[Ginger]

Regarding what others may do both Jesus and Paul made it clear that if they are teaching and preaching the TRUTH about the Lord and about Jesus then they are serving the will of the Lord regardless of who they are or why they are.

I just re-read your post and thus far I agree.....

As Paul pointed out whether out of love or out of spite they teach and make known the TRUTH then the TRUTH is preached and made known as it is the will of the Lord to do.

Here I am a little unclear.....Would you please share the reference.

I don't think anyone can preach truth out of ill-will (spite)
I think the point is that if someone is preaching truth - complete truth that is not mixed with lies - that truth is being revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as Jesus said, leave him be, for if he is not against us, he is with us - there are only two sides when it comes to God. We are either for God or, whether by default or intention, we are against Him!

 

[Panda]

I'm guessing that he is referring to Philippians 1:18, but he could be approaching it from a different perspective.

 

[godswill]

Well, that's not entirely accurate....

All true Christians adhere to the same set of essential doctrines that are clearly spelled out in the Holy Scriptures. It is what defines us as "Christian", therefore, if someone does not agree with these basic tenents, he or she is not really a Christian by definition.

Within Christianity there are only minor differences that according to Scripture are not worth arguing over. Any major diference is a case of True Christianity vs a cheap immitation of Christianity or a pseudo-christianity.

For example, believing Jesus is the Son of God, vs believing Jesus was just a good man, a prophet of sorts. That's a defining factor. The first group are Christian, but the second group only claims to be Christian.
In contrast, there are petty things people argue over causing division when these issue have no bearing on our salvation. If it doesn't change who Jesus is, if it doesn't change his purpose, if it doesn't change who we are in Christ Jesus, then it is really irrelevent.

What is bothering me is every sect in Christianity acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh but they have different recognition with Jesus Christ. Can Jesus Christ be with the people with different recognition and different understanding in his words? If something is wrong then let the holy scripture answer. Who is Jesus Christ come in flesh?

 

[Ginger]

What is bothering me is every sect in Christianity acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh but they have different recognition with Jesus Christ. Can Jesus Christ be with the people with different recognition and different understanding in his words? If something is wrong then let the holy scripture answer. Who is Jesus Christ come in flesh?

We are not to fret over minor differences. There is a verse somewhere in Scriptures that says that.

Let's use SDA as an example - mind you I do not want to discuss whether or not they are Christians or a cult. I do not want to address that in this post!!

With that in mind,
Does it matter whether someone chooses Sunday or Saturday to fellowship in church? Is that really important?

On-the-other-hand, what they believe about Christ Jesus is important!

Every "sect" of Christianity does not disagree on "essential doctrines" Those who adhere to unbiblical doctrines or reject the very foundation of Christianity, are "Christian" in name - only.

The basic fundamental beliefs of Christianity define who we are in Christ, what being a Christian means. Therefore, those who do not adhere to the basic fundamental doctriens are not Christian.

Like I said before, I can call myself a vegetarian, but if I do not abstain from meat, I am not a vegetarian!

Ginger

 

[mistmann]

Are you arguing with me Misty? Because I am agreeing with you.

Even my post about English vs Greek grammar was an acknowledgement. That opening line was only because people insist one thing or another means something based on the English translation, when the original was not written in English. They even use the same faulty argument "all [English] translations say the same thing" Even if the translated is direct, translating each word into Eglish as it was written, that does not guarantee the meaning will not be altered because of grammar and colloquialisms of the Biblical era

I liked the way you explained it, but I believe, your argument about the would fail in most instances since the rules of English grammar do not apply in the Greek. That is the point I was making!

To prove my point, all you have to do is talk with JW's. They apply English grammar all the time to deny Jesus was anything more than man - just like everyone else ever born.

But, in these two instances, I agree with you, Misty.

Rest assured Ginger I am not arguing with you. My last post was just something I forgot to put in the one before it. As I said in that one it wasn't directed to anyone in particular, just adding some thoughts to the conversation.

Regarding the English versus Greek bit I was trying to figure out if it was an argument against my comment or not. In the end I just clarified the matter, that is all. Something to understand about translation versus interpretation is that the purpose for which a translator is trained is to PRESERVE the meaning of what is written when transcribing from one language to the other. In other words ensuring that what the words actually say in one language they still say in the other. In this instance it would appear from my Strong's concordance that it is a (3) word for word translation. In other words in both English and Greek Pilate uttered the three words "What is Truth?". My point about all the translations is that all translators have PRESERVED the meaning as "What is Truth". None of them took the Greek to mean "What is the truth?"

Just clarifying things, that is all.

As to JW's I have had quite a few doorstep discussions with them. The problem they have is not grammatical it is that they have been taught to believe what their Church declares the Bible to say and ignore what the Bible actually does say, even their own translation. I have opened the Bible up and shown them exactly what it says there on the page in direct contradiction to their teaching. their response is usually just to shrug and say that is not what they have been taught.

But yes I do agree we do have to keep in mind that what we are reading is not the original words but a translation of them. That is why I always encourage everybody to at least have a Concordance of Greek and Hebrew words to better understand what the original writer intended the passage to mean in the Greek and Hebrew words they chose to use. It can be quite an eye opener at times and totally change our understanding of what the writer was actually saying.

 

[mistmann]

I just re-read your post and thus far I agree.....

Here I am a little unclear.....Would you please share the reference.

I don't think anyone can preach truth out of ill-will (spite)
I think the point is that if someone is preaching truth - complete truth that is not mixed with lies - that truth is being revealed to him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as Jesus said, leave him be, for if he is not against us, he is with us - there are only two sides when it comes to God. We are either for God or, whether by default or intention, we are against Him!

The passage I was making reference to was this one:-

Philippians 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

But it is quite possible to preach truth even with malicious intent. Many an atheist has quoted scripture at me, intending to mock my belief of it. I am sure many have said to others "this is what he believes" intending that it be derogatory, but in doing so has actually borne witness FOR me, of the things I teach before those he is speaking to.

In Paul's case I would imagine there were those going around telling people exactly what it is Paul was teaching and declaring intending it to be a source of trouble for Paul. But in effect what they were doing is spreading the teachings and declarations of Paul FOR him. This is the point he was making in the above passage.

 

[Ginger]

Okay, I gotcha! ;-)

 

[Ginger]

Okay, this is a little long in coming, but I found some info on that two-stick prophet I was asking about. I couldn't find the full story but this gives a lot of info:

Deckard is an Orthodox Jew who believes in Jesus. He claims the angel of the God appeared to him and instructed him to begin gathering the ten lost tribes of Israel, whom he refers to as Ephraim, to take them home to Israel. He believes many people in the U.S. may be descendents of the lost tribes of Israel.
Deckard explains all Christian churches have erred in not keeping the whole word of God, but wrongly thinking the old covenant became obsolete with the coming of Jesus.
He tells the story of how God split the nation of Israel into a Northern kingdom consisting of ten tribes and a Southern Kingdom of two. The Southern kingdom, known as the House of Judah, resides in Israel. The Northern kingdom was scattered across the Earth.
"God made a stumbling block to both houses," said Deckard. "To Judah the stumbling block was Jesus, to Ephraim the stumbling block was the law."
"We were taught Jesus Christ was the new covenant. No! He was the New Testament in the blood - not as a new covenant with the old being done away with," he said.
Deckard told his audience the new covenant is found in Ezekiel 37.
"God said take thee one stick and write upon it Judah take another stick and write upon it Joseph for the house of Ephram and make them one stick "
"The blood of Jesus Christ is not going to save you," said Deckard. "All that you have been taught is not changing your life. There is as much sin in the church, as there is in the world. It is the covenant and keeping the testimony of Yeshua (Jesus) that will change your life."
Those who have joined Deckard in his ministry keep Jewish laws and festivals as well as the teachings of Jesus.
"I went to Israel before the chief rabbis and they were convinced I was a prophet sent to Israel," said Deckard. "I have promised them I will bring back the stick of Ephraim and place the stick of Ephram in their hand with the stick of Judah and it would become one stick."
When asked how Deckard plans to find the lost tribes, he responded, "God sent me here to this stiff-necked people. ‘This shall be the new covenant I will make. I will write it in their hearts.’"
"I don’t have to convince anyone. Theirs hearts are going to jump when they hear my message, and they will know."

 

[godswill]

What is bothering me is every sect in Christianity acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh but they have different recognition with Jesus Christ. Can Jesus Christ be with the people with different recognition and different understanding in his words? If something is wrong then let the holy scripture answer. Who is Jesus Christ come in flesh?

Since every sect has different recognition with Jesus Christ. Perhaps nobody could not refute the Jesus Christ recognized by Simon Peter in Matthew 16:16-17 is not the real Jesus Christ. When Simon Peter says"You are the CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD".