Discussion Too

Sure, but my point is that it's not just technology by man. I believe it to be of supernatural origin with a spiritual meaning. Otherwise why would God revoke their salvation, Rev 14:9-11!?

I am not seeing anything in that reference about revoking any saved believer of their salvation. Those wayward and unrepentant saints that get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event, you can trust Jesus Christ as our faithful Creator in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the coming great tribulation because our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work even in those left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

To All: If you study the destruction of the earth in Noah's day and the 5 cities of the plain in Lot's they are without a preacher of warning for repentance, and then you have the book of revelation that says you can lose your salvation for taking the mark, there's more to it than an ATM card or the "internet" or any human endeavor. Muslims believe that the mark of the beast (Dabat Al-Ard) on their foreheads will make their faces bright and luminescent. They too believe it'll be supernatural. (Don't be afraid of the word supernatural, it just means an event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.) I say it's supernatural not because of Islam but because of the word of God. The devil is nothing more than a con-artist mimicking God. Here's what God does FIRST:

Revelation 7:3 (KJV)
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Who are they? The 144k. It's a supernatural event. THEN the devil makes everyone take HIS imitation mark.

Revelation 13:17 (KJV)
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Then God's wrath comes.

But this proves that those sealed by God as new believers in Jesus Christ can never receive the mark because He has them.

Those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind have His seal too.

There are 3 angels setting up the coming hour of trial that shall try all on the earth. The 1st gives the everlasting gospel, the second the news of fallen Babylon, and the third a warning of the consequences for taking the mark which is the lake of fire. Everyone will know the gospel and the warning of taking the mark and so will be without excuse when He comes.

The second event of fallen Babylon is when the third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) is burned up and the saints are slain in Babylon where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone. That what sets up the coming New World Order and the "necessity" for the mark of the beast.

So there are saints outside the new 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation; both old as in left behind, and the new; those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000 witnesses to despense the gospel during that time that would believe in Him.
 


Revelations 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

These would be the wayward & unrepentant saints that were left behind that were weeping & gnashing their teeth when after the great tribulation, God is performing a miracle to wipe the tears from their eyes to get past their loss of crowns and of not being able to attend the Marriage Supper in His honour and thus they are received as vessels unto dishonour in His House.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "wayward and unrepentant saints" and "received as vessels unto dishonour in His House"?
 
There were many things in Abdicates appendix (pg 187) that really aren't well known but make a very credible argument that Islam is part of the beast. I recommend reading it as I've not seen it so explicity elsewhere.

I agree!

I would also add this. When the Rapture takes place, consider how many "religiously lost church members" of all Christian denominations that will be left behind. Ad them to the muslims and you will have a really powerful, know it all wicked bunch of depressed and angry people looking for direction. That opens the door for the man of sin, the Antichrist to come in.

IMHO, that one fact is the reason why the real believers must be taken out of the way in the Rapture.
 
I am not seeing anything in that reference about revoking any saved believer of their salvation. Those wayward and unrepentant saints that get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event, you can trust Jesus Christ as our faithful Creator in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the coming great tribulation because our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work even in those left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.



But this proves that those sealed by God as new believers in Jesus Christ can never receive the mark because He has them.

Those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind have His seal too.

There are 3 angels setting up the coming hour of trial that shall try all on the earth. The 1st gives the everlasting gospel, the second the news of fallen Babylon, and the third a warning of the consequences for taking the mark which is the lake of fire. Everyone will know the gospel and the warning of taking the mark and so will be without excuse when He comes.

The second event of fallen Babylon is when the third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) is burned up and the saints are slain in Babylon where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone. That what sets up the coming New World Order and the "necessity" for the mark of the beast.

So there are saints outside the new 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation; both old as in left behind, and the new; those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000 witnesses to despense the gospel during that time that would believe in Him.

I agree that there will more than the 144,000 who will be saved. They are Jewish, virgin men and they will lead the revival of those who have never heard the gospel to salvation and they will refuse the Mark. Those left behind, and did not get Raptured NEVER ACCEPT CHRIST TO BEGIN WITH.

2 Thess. 2:8-12 confirms that fact..........
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
 
I hoped & prayed for a pretrib rapture but until recently, I didn't really see it convincingly in scripture. Now I do needless to say. Because of the 144,000 (for one) and the fact that the tribulation time is centered around Israel and the Jews. While the Jews, obviously messed up badly by not recognizing Christ as the Messiah - I have long believed they missed it because both comings of Messiah are prophesized in the OT and they wanted the 2nd coming - not the first. Their hopes still lie in the Messiah's coming, now and once the Tribulation starts - they will finally see their mistake. Christ's Church has to be removed for that realization to take place. The mark of the beast will not be offered to Jews.

Correct!

Rev. 1:7 confirms exactly what you just said...........
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."
 
I am not seeing anything in that reference about revoking any saved believer of their salvation. Those wayward and unrepentant saints that get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event, you can trust Jesus Christ as our faithful Creator in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the coming great tribulation because our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work even in those left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.



But this proves that those sealed by God as new believers in Jesus Christ can never receive the mark because He has them.

Those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind have His seal too.

There are 3 angels setting up the coming hour of trial that shall try all on the earth. The 1st gives the everlasting gospel, the second the news of fallen Babylon, and the third a warning of the consequences for taking the mark which is the lake of fire. Everyone will know the gospel and the warning of taking the mark and so will be without excuse when He comes.

The second event of fallen Babylon is when the third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) is burned up and the saints are slain in Babylon where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone. That what sets up the coming New World Order and the "necessity" for the mark of the beast.

So there are saints outside the new 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation; both old as in left behind, and the new; those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000 witnesses to despense the gospel during that time that would believe in Him.

Rev. 17 is the destruction of Babylon, the Beast System.

Rev. 18 is the destruction of Babylon, the city.

"Those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind have His seal too".

I love ya man and enjoy your insights but this is one that is not acceptable to me. There are NO wayward and un-repentant SAINTS left behind to be sealed. ALL of God's real believers are Raptured and those left were "make believers" and once the Rapture is done, they can not be saved according to 2 Thess. 2:8-12.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "wayward and unrepentant saints" and "received as vessels unto dishonour in His House"?

Those who walk after the flesh will receive condemnation ( Romans 8:1 ) just as those that make promises or commitments that only God can keep & finish will fall into condemnation ( James 5:12 ), unless they repent, and be set free to rest in Him & His promises in overcoming before the Bridegroom comes.

We are saved by faith, but we are also to live by faith in the Son of God and all His promises to us as His disciples; and not every believer will be wise on what they build on that foundation.

So there is a condemnation wherein one not only loses the rewards of crowns, but from being a vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper.

You have to lean on Him to discern what makes a vessel unto dishonour in His House and when does this judgment come to designate a believer as a vessel unto honour from the vessels unto dishonour in His House.

Seeing how God is going to judge His House first, I would say at the pre tribulational rapture event; thus the act of seperating the sheep from the goats, but the goats are His as He must bring them for He can lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

There are two folds: the sheep that followed His voice and the sheep that followed the voice of strangers'. The fold that followed the stranger's voice, He MUST bring because of John 6:39 and they shall be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold & one shepherd.

John 10:3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers....14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Again, after Jesus gathers the elect for the Marriage Supper as His sheep in His barn, He will go after the one that was lost.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

The whole point of correcting a brother astray is so that He would not have to go after them after the pre tribulational rapture.

You cannot fall away from the faith unless you had faith; just as you cannot know the way of truth and be worse before unless you knew Him.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Peter 2For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

This is why God is judging His House first to restore the wayward & unrepentant saved believers to the path of righteousness for His name's sake because He really is the Good Shepherd. They will be received as vessels unto "dishonour" in His House.
 
Ok. @TalkJesus - I'm still not clear on what you are saying? Are you saying that God will still save those who believed in Christ but still followed "stranger's" words - thus fallen away?
 
I am not seeing anything in that reference about revoking any saved believer of their salvation. Those wayward and unrepentant saints that get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event, you can trust Jesus Christ as our faithful Creator in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the coming great tribulation because our confidence is in Jesus Christ to finish His work even in those left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.



But this proves that those sealed by God as new believers in Jesus Christ can never receive the mark because He has them.

Those wayward & unrepentant saints left behind have His seal too.

There are 3 angels setting up the coming hour of trial that shall try all on the earth. The 1st gives the everlasting gospel, the second the news of fallen Babylon, and the third a warning of the consequences for taking the mark which is the lake of fire. Everyone will know the gospel and the warning of taking the mark and so will be without excuse when He comes.

The second event of fallen Babylon is when the third of the earth ( the entire western hemisphere ) is burned up and the saints are slain in Babylon where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more because the Bridegroom had come & gone. That what sets up the coming New World Order and the "necessity" for the mark of the beast.

So there are saints outside the new 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation; both old as in left behind, and the new; those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000 witnesses to despense the gospel during that time that would believe in Him.
I'm pleased that you understand that the rapture isn't a right, but a gift for the overcomers. I mentioned Rev 14:9-11 because it says anyone and with Rev 3:5 saying Jesus won't blot out the overcomers, anyone who takes the mark will see the wrath of God fall on them. In order for that to happen, the mark has to be more than just physical, but also spiritual, in this case demonic. Those that forget that the scriptures are also involving the spirit realm can’t see past the latest technology. The 144k are sealed by God and if they couldn’t win over the lost, why are they around? So I do believe that there will be saved people beyond the 144k, and those you mentioned. This is clearly why Jesus says pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the wrath to come, Luke 21:36. I totally agree with the mission of the three angels. I’m lost with your last paragraph: “those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000” the scriptures say that the 144k are male virgin Jews only. There may be more, but 12k from each tribe will be sealed – the church doesn’t do tribes…

Did I miss something?
 
Ok. @TalkJesus - I'm still not clear on what you are saying? Are you saying that God will still save those who believed in Christ but still followed "stranger's" words - thus fallen away?

They are saved, but have gone astray when departing from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils or they had foolishly built on that foundation works that deny Him, whethor it be religious ones like the works of catholicism, or sowing to the flesh. Not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to be ready to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House to attending the Marriage Supper in His honour. That is why Jesus has been warning saved believers about the consequences for not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not....46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Romans 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

An example of the judgment given above of physical death which has been warned for committing an iniquity is below;

Revelations 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

This is a testimony from God acknowledging that they are His and thus saved for they had faith. Just as Jesus warned believers to be ready and prepare themselves with His help and by His grace, so is He warning this church.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

That means even though judged with death as their vessels shall be broken to shivers, He shall rule over them still. That is why those saints coming out of the great tribulation shall serve the King of Kings as kings & priests for the milleniel reign of Christ.

We were on the mark of the beast, right?

Sorry for the confusion but that was a side line topic not meant to be lumped in on what I was saying on how & why God will judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture.

Those astrayed saints left behind, God is faithful in the keeping of their souls while they suffer being left behind to face the coming fire on the earth and immediately afterwards, the coming of the great tribulation. In relations to the mark of the beast, that also means that Jesus is able to keep them from taking the mark.
 
I'm pleased that you understand that the rapture isn't a right, but a gift for the overcomers.

All saved believers have that right; new born believers that have not foolishly began building on that foundation of wood, stubble, and hay of works that deny Him that needs burning up can be received by the Bridegroom at that moment just as easily as an elderly believer that has been abiding in Him & His words by His grace & by His help all his life as His disciple.

In other words, new believers in that last minute before the Bridegroom comes can be received just as a wayward unrepentant believers whom repents by His grace & by His help at that last second can be received as well.

But yes, basically, many are called but few are chosen because there are works on that foundation that they cannot bring with them to the Marriage Supper which is why by being left behind, the Refiner's fire will purge away those works that deny Him.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I mentioned Rev 14:9-11 because it says anyone and with Rev 3:5 saying Jesus won't blot out the overcomers, anyone who takes the mark will see the wrath of God fall on them.

Some clarity: Revelation 14:9-11 was the third angel giving a general warning to the world just as the first angel gave the everlasting gospel. The two messages does not apply to all because the left behind saints are saved but their works that deny Him are going to go to the dust as they are, and so we can rest assured that those saints are in no danger of taking the mark because He is faithful in the keeping of their souls of those saints in suffering being left behind.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Now for Revelation 3:5.. at this link:

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C003.htm

Scroll down to the 5th verse and click on the divided Greek text mirroring that verse which is at the end of the first line and beginning the second half of that Greek text on the second line and you should see this definition below;

i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378.

That is a double negative, meaning He would never do that ever. Why?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

So then, may He gives us wisdom in understanding what is being said here.

Revelations 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcomes shall be clothed in white raiment. That is the reward given for overcoming. What we read next is a promise given to all believers that He would never ever do that, and then readdressing the overcomer again for departing from iniquity that was denying Him, He shall confess him before the Father & before his angels.

Some may refuse this clarification, but they have John 6:39 to contend with as well as that double negative in verse 5.

Now some will refer to Revelations 22:19 below:

Revelations 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

But that is referring to "his part"; not "his name", but "his part" which is referring to his place in that holy city of New Jerusalem that shall come down from Heaven with the pre trib raptured saints at His second coming. Meaning he will be left behind.

If we look to the consequences for adding to His words in the Book of Revelations:

Revelations 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Okay then. To suffer the plagues in this book would have to mean what? That they will be left behind to suffer the great tribulation. So both consequences for messing around with the Book of Revelations is to be left behind.

Now to assign loss of salvation to verse 19, but not verse 18, would be to give an unbalanced scale to how God judges, so we need His help to pay attention to the exact wording to understand how His words in Revelations are not contradicting His words in John 6:39 since it is the Father's will for Him not to lose any one that the Father has given Him.

In order for that to happen, the mark has to be more than just physical, but also spiritual, in this case demonic.

Taking the mark will definitely be demonic in all its representation. If there be any supernatural manifestation as a result of having the mark, I do not know nor do I see in the scripture. The false prophets of the beast will manifest signs and lying wonders, but I do not see that as attributing to all those with the mark.

Those that forget that the scriptures are also involving the spirit realm can’t see past the latest technology. The 144k are sealed by God and if they couldn’t win over the lost, why are they around? So I do believe that there will be saved people beyond the 144k, and those you mentioned.

Everybody will have heard the gospel and know the consequences for taking the mark, and so eventually there will be new believers as well as those that reject Him in taking the mark, but those having His seal are in no danger of taking the mark for He is keeping them.

This is clearly why Jesus says pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the wrath to come, Luke 21:36.

That warning is for now. The every day cares of life are a snare for believers now that they may be not willing to leave this life when the Bridegroom comes.

I totally agree with the mission of the three angels. I’m lost with your last paragraph: “those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000” the scriptures say that the 144k are male virgin Jews only. There may be more, but 12k from each tribe will be sealed – the church doesn’t do tribes…

Probably need to reword that or clarify that better; but I was referring to new believers of the Jewish nation and of the world that will come after the 144,000 witnesses.

Did I miss something?

Proverbs 27:17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
 
What you are saying (@TalkJesus ) makes a lot of sense, in some ways - I would have to think more on it. There are salvation issues and then there are doctrinal error issues.
 
I'm pleased that you understand that the rapture isn't a right, but a gift for the overcomers. I mentioned Rev 14:9-11 because it says anyone and with Rev 3:5 saying Jesus won't blot out the overcomers, anyone who takes the mark will see the wrath of God fall on them. In order for that to happen, the mark has to be more than just physical, but also spiritual, in this case demonic. Those that forget that the scriptures are also involving the spirit realm can’t see past the latest technology. The 144k are sealed by God and if they couldn’t win over the lost, why are they around? So I do believe that there will be saved people beyond the 144k, and those you mentioned. This is clearly why Jesus says pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the wrath to come, Luke 21:36. I totally agree with the mission of the three angels. I’m lost with your last paragraph: “those not of the Jewish nation that serves as 144,000” the scriptures say that the 144k are male virgin Jews only. There may be more, but 12k from each tribe will be sealed – the church doesn’t do tribes…

Did I miss something?

I agree ! There will be a great revival!!! We know that because of Rev. 7:9-14 (ESV).

A Great Multitude from Every Nation

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

However, in light of 2 Thess. 2:8-12, I would suggest that the revival will NOT include those who had heard the gospel and rejected it and missed the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-13English Standard Version (ESV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Isn't the reason these people are perishing because they "THEY RECEIVED NOT" not the gospel. Since they refused to believe the truth/gospel God will then allow them to believe the great lie. They were "Make Believers" and had pleasure in sin. They had a choice and time and information but rejected it. THEN when the Rapture takes place, they can not be saved. That is what Paul is saying here and I would encourage all to read his words, pray over them and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you.

You see folks.....when someone hears about the Lord Jesus, and then says .......NO, or I will think about it, or even, I am going to get saved, BUT LATER. If that person then dies, do they get another chance????

The whole world heard the story of God from Noah. For 120 years he preached. How many of the worlds population was saved from the flood outside of Noah's family? NONE! When the door closed, the opportunity to be saved ended.

Same with the Rapture. When it takes place, the opportunity for those to be saved WHO HEARD AND REJECTED the gospel, will be over.

Think now. If a person could be saved after the Rapture who had already rejected Christ, why then would he want to be saved??????

He looks around and sees all the Christians he knew are gone. Remember now, he said he was saved and he had been in church so he knows what has happened. The Rapture has taken place......HE MISSED IT, so now he wants to be saved because all those people he heard over the years are now proven right. So NOW he wants to be saved.

WHY??????? He missed the Rapture.

But we are not saved because we believe in the Rapture or even that we missed the Rapture. We are saved because we believe in Jesus Christ as the one who died to pay the penalty for our sins, not to remove us in the Rapture! The ones who knew, but were make believers can not be saved because they missed the Rapture, but that will be exactly why they will want to be saved after it takes place!

Not everyone will agree with this, I just ask that you pray about it and consider it. To me it confirms Paul's exclamation of..............
"Today is the day of salvation".
 
They are saved, but have gone astray when departing from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils or they had foolishly built on that foundation works that deny Him, whethor it be religious ones like the works of catholicism, or sowing to the flesh. Not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to be ready to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House to attending the Marriage Supper in His honour. That is why Jesus has been warning saved believers about the consequences for not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not....46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Romans 8:13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

An example of the judgment given above of physical death which has been warned for committing an iniquity is below;

Revelations 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

This is a testimony from God acknowledging that they are His and thus saved for they had faith. Just as Jesus warned believers to be ready and prepare themselves with His help and by His grace, so is He warning this church.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

That means even though judged with death as their vessels shall be broken to shivers, He shall rule over them still. That is why those saints coming out of the great tribulation shall serve the King of Kings as kings & priests for the milleniel reign of Christ.



Sorry for the confusion but that was a side line topic not meant to be lumped in on what I was saying on how & why God will judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture.

Those astrayed saints left behind, God is faithful in the keeping of their souls while they suffer being left behind to face the coming fire on the earth and immediately afterwards, the coming of the great tribulation. In relations to the mark of the beast, that also means that Jesus is able to keep them from taking the mark.

You said.........

"Those astrayed saints left behind, God is faithful in the keeping of their souls while they suffer being left behind to face the coming fire on the earth and immediately afterwards, the coming of the great tribulation. In relations to the mark of the beast, that also means that Jesus is able to keep them from taking the mark."

I just do not believe that there will be any "astrayed saints left behind".

The ones left behind will be those who Jesus said "depart from me, I never knew you".
 
I have to think on these issues. I had not considered, as TalkJesus seems to be saying; that some are saved in the Rapture? believed in Christ as Savior, but got much other issues wrong. And I have to believe, until someone takes the mark, they can still be saved? These issues might be why Christ, in the Millenial Kingdom has to rule with an iron hand. I need to think and pray on it.
 
I have to think on these issues. I had not considered, as TalkJesus seems to be saying; that some are saved in the Rapture? believed in Christ as Savior, but got much other issues wrong. And I have to believe, until someone takes the mark, they can still be saved? These issues might be why Christ, in the Millenial Kingdom has to rule with an iron hand. I need to think and pray on it.

Remember that we are not saved by belief in the Rapture, and when someone misses it who knew about it, what else would motivate them to be saved? It will not be the Holy Spirit because He will be gone and will not indwell believers any more.
 
Remember that we are not saved by belief in the Rapture, and when someone misses it who knew about it, what else would motivate them to be saved? It will not be the Holy Spirit because He will be gone and will not indwell believers any more.

I was saved before I was convinced of the pretrib Rapture, so no worries there. If I were "left behind" I would be very motivated to correct whatever got me left and pronto. I'm trying to wrap my head around people who claim to be Christian and, IMHO, have everything else upside down, being raptured. Or not raptured when, tho deceived, they truly loved God.
 
What I see about me is the "Great Christian Confusion". And for a long time, I thought this was because of the misleaders. I see The Word as one great, interwoven, tight as a drum, truth. Now. But like so many others, I got distracted for awhile, and tried to follow the snips and quotes and out of context reasoning. And when you do that - it may sound good and be utterly false. Warning: 50 zillionth repeat: You can sculpt scripture to back any false doctrine you can name. And pride makes us withstand correction and try all the harder to justify a stance. Personally, I would rather be corrected in the here and now. If what you "believe" does not conform to the heart of scripture, you have to let it go. You have to test it against, not a quote, but all of what the heart of scripture tells is the truth. Have to say, TalkJesus does this very well.
 
I agree ! There will be a great revival!!! We know that because of Rev. 7:9-14 (ESV).

A Great Multitude from Every Nation

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

However, in light of 2 Thess. 2:8-12, I would suggest that the revival will NOT include those who had heard the gospel and rejected it and missed the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-13English Standard Version (ESV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Isn't the reason these people are perishing because they "THEY RECEIVED NOT" not the gospel. Since they refused to believe the truth/gospel God will then allow them to believe the great lie. They were "Make Believers" and had pleasure in sin. They had a choice and time and information but rejected it. THEN when the Rapture takes place, they can not be saved. That is what Paul is saying here and I would encourage all to read his words, pray over them and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to you.

I would strongly advise using the KJV and not the ESV just so we are on the same page.

In any event, as per your reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:8-13, Paul goes on to speak of those wisked and unreasonable men for they not all have faith in the next chapter and to testify that those that walk disorderly and not after the traditions taught of us, we were to correct them but if unrepentant, we are to admonish them by withdrawing; with the view that they are not the enemy, but brothers still.

Now going back to your reference: you would say how can those condemned still be brothers? What do you think happens when a vessel unto honour that defiles himself is destroyed into becoming that vessel unto dishonour? It is a condemnation: a damnation, because he can never be that vessel unto honour in His House after judgment has been rendered in him being left behind.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 testify of believers departing from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils. That means these are saved believers having been led astray. Your reference testify to how we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the love of the truth; meaning, Paul was reproving the false teaching that believers can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sensational sign in the flesh; even the sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation. That is the strong delusion for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again with evidence of tongues. Unless they repent, these believers are in danger of being left behind in becoming vessels unto dishonour in His House.

You see folks.....when someone hears about the Lord Jesus, and then says .......NO, or I will think about it, or even, I am going to get saved, BUT LATER. If that person then dies, do they get another chance????

The whole world heard the story of God from Noah. For 120 years he preached. How many of the worlds population was saved from the flood outside of Noah's family? NONE! When the door closed, the opportunity to be saved ended.

Same with the Rapture. When it takes place, the opportunity for those to be saved WHO HEARD AND REJECTED the gospel, will be over.

Think now. If a person could be saved after the Rapture who had already rejected Christ, why then would he want to be saved??????

He looks around and sees all the Christians he knew are gone. Remember now, he said he was saved and he had been in church so he knows what has happened. The Rapture has taken place......HE MISSED IT, so now he wants to be saved because all those people he heard over the years are now proven right. So NOW he wants to be saved.

WHY??????? He missed the Rapture.

At or immediatley sfter the pre trib rapture; an angel with the everlasting gospel will share at this time. This will happen.

Revelations 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then the second angel will herald the fall of Babylon.

But we are not saved because we believe in the Rapture or even that we missed the Rapture. We are saved because we believe in Jesus Christ as the one who died to pay the penalty for our sins, not to remove us in the Rapture! The ones who knew, but were make believers can not be saved because they missed the Rapture, but that will be exactly why they will want to be saved after it takes place!

Not everyone will agree with this, I just ask that you pray about it and consider it. To me it confirms Paul's exclamation of..............
"Today is the day of salvation".

Not every saved believers will be ready and willing to go when the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 14:15-24 is Jesus testifying to the King's Supper on how those invited made excuses not to come in favour of the cares of his life. Luke 14:25-37 is about the cost of discipleship is being ready to leave the cares of this life when the Bridegroom comes.

So iniquity is not the only thing that can cause a saved believer to be left behind. A disciple that has been following Him all His life but yet does not wish to go when the Bridegroom comes is akin to a man building his tower but not finishing it.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus would not be warning unsaved believers because they will be left behind. So the warning applies to saved believers wishing to be His disciples; to be chosen by His grace & by His help, to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in His honour.

Otherwise, they will be harvested later and resurrected to be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonour in His House
 
Back
Top