Do you believe in possibility of miraculous healing through faith

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nov 18, 2020
132
114
43
60
Macomb Michigan
Yes sir, that is correct.

And here is another little fact......for those today who think that the office of Apostle is valid today..........
There is NOT ONE single Scripture in which "any" apostle lays down a line or command or even a suggestion for Succession.

The office of apostle was only avavailabe for MEN who had..........
They needed to have been with Jesus during the whole three years that Jesus was among them.
They needed to be an eyewitness of Jesus’ baptism when the Heavenly Father validated Jesus’ person and work.
They needed to have heard Jesus’ life-changing teachings and been present to see His healings and other miracles.
They needed to have witnessed Jesus sacrifice Himself on the cross and to have seen Jesus walk, talk, and eat among the disciples again after His resurrection.

Acts 1:21-22.................gives those qualifications---
"So one of the men who have accompanied us during tall the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

Since that is not possible to take place today....Biblically then there can not be an Apostle today.

The "Sign Gifts" were given only to the 12 so that they could write the New Test. and spread the gosple to all the world in so doing.
Their abilities validated their message and when the New Test. was completed, there was then no need for the office to continue as the "Perfect" in
1 Corinthians 13:10 had come.
Paul stated that both offices of prophets and Apostles now ceased, as they laid in already the theological foundation!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Feb 10, 2015
1,068
1,257
113
Maryland
Regarding whether spiritual gifts are available today in similar fashion to the early church, I think for the purposes here, it would be good to quote the key passage (if others would like to address other portions of scripture, feel free).



8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (KJV)



A central part of this is what the perfect mentioned in V10 is intended to mean. Many point to the canonization of scripture. For myself, I think it is the coming Kingdom (and thus the future from our viewpoint).

Consider V12: Instead of seeing Christ darkly, we will be face to face and not in need of additional expanding knowledge nor in the gift of prophesy nor tongues nor healing. If the perfect referred to the Bible, we would expect that we would not need further know Lord or ourselves.

We can see that the Bible as good as it is, and it is perfect in that it accomplishes the task the Lord set, does not contain all Truth about God.

There are many reasons why we do not perceive the same gifts as did first century believers.

Much that we see and do every day that would be seen as miraculous to the believers in Corinth. The would be more than metaphorical but to their understanding would actually be miracles.

At the same time and on the other side of the same coin, when the miraculous is observed today, we deem it a magic trick, or an illusion, or look for a natural explanation, as if the natural world were not a manifestation of God. If we find a trick, we brand all such as trick. If we find a natural world explanation, we therefore miss Gods part in that. One of the greatest points of these gifts is to promote belief but man himself hinders that.

By the way, while I see the utility of words like cessationist, labels like this just draw lines that may not be fundamental and invites us to take sides.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Sep 3, 2009
12,726
5,328
113
Florida
Regarding whether spiritual gifts are available today in similar fashion to the early church, I think for the purposes here, it would be good to quote the key passage (if others would like to address other portions of scripture, feel free).



8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 (KJV)



A central part of this is what the perfect mentioned in V10 is intended to mean. Many point to the canonization of scripture. For myself, I think it is the coming Kingdom (and thus the future from our viewpoint).

Consider V12: Instead of seeing Christ darkly, we will be face to face and not in need of additional expanding knowledge nor in the gift of prophesy nor tongues nor healing. If the perfect referred to the Bible, we would expect that we would not need further know Lord or ourselves.

We can see that the Bible as good as it is, and it is perfect in that it accomplishes the task the Lord set, does not contain all Truth about God.

There are many reasons why we do not perceive the same gifts as did first century believers.

Much that we see and do every day that would be seen as miraculous to the believers in Corinth. The would be more than metaphorical but to their understanding would actually be miracles.

At the same time and on the other side of the same coin, when the miraculous is observed today, we deem it a magic trick, or an illusion, or look for a natural explanation, as if the natural world were not a manifestation of God. If we find a trick, we brand all such as trick. If we find a natural world explanation, we therefore miss Gods part in that. One of the greatest points of these gifts is to promote belief but man himself hinders that.

By the way, while I see the utility of words like cessationist, labels like this just draw lines that may not be fundamental and invites us to take sides.

I have done as many others and tried to consider all the teachings of this one Scripture. I guess it comes down to what we enter the understanding of the Scripture and what we actually want it to say.

No one has to agree with me on anything and all I can do is state what I see the Scripture actually says.

Now when we take close look at the verse whose phrase is in question: 1 Corth. 13:10 we see........
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away”.

Did you see it?? This verse says nothing about us going anywhere, but it does teach that something is coming to us.
Something coming to us and us going somewhere are two completely different situations.

Often, because of verse 12, 1 Corinthians 13:10 is conflated with 1 John 3:2. However, 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 John 3:2 are not cross-references—the contexts are discussing separate issues.

Now with ALL respect and Christian love........ many well meaning and great Christian people have assumed that 1 Corinthians 13:10—
“when that which is perfect is come”—is descriptive of us going to heaven and seeing Jesus for who He really is, when we no longer wonder what He looks like but when we actually see Him “face to face.”

Yet, beloved, those words "Face to Face" is from a hymnal and is not our authority; it is not inspired of God. Just because someone wrote a hymn lacking doctrinal clarity and accuracy, does not mean that we are to accept the hymn for sake of tradition. We should discard the hymn and we should believe the Bible for what it says rather than that what it is presumed to teach. After all, the hymn is to be written based on Bible truth; the Bible is the authority, not the hymnal. It would save us much disappointment and misery when we realize that the opinions of men are not going to profit us in eternity.

IMO........The phrase “when that which is perfect is come” has nothing to do with us dying and going to heaven. Please feel free to disagree and we will still be the best of friends as you may be right and I may just be wrong.

Again, the actual and literal words of the Scripture in question is talking about something coming to us, not us going to a place.

Again, IMPO and having come out of the Pentecostal Charismatic religion, the real reason why people they take the view of us dying going to heaven in reference to 1 Corinthians 13:10 is so that the spirituals gifts—especially the gift of tongues—can be viewed as still operating today for, it is said, by that them the spiritual gifts will not cease until we go to heaven.

Again, 3rd time but I am old so I have an excuse, this is a very faulty position to take, for there is nothing in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 about dying and going to heaven.

Consider for a moment........“When that which is perfect is come” is a reference to when partial knowledge and partial prophesying are done away.

Verses 9 and 10 again:
“[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”

This seems to me is talking about the completion of the Bible’s canon of books, which was settled in God’s mind in the first century A.D. Once John wrote his Revelation the Bible was complete, and there was no more revelation needed from God (cf. Colossians 1:25 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

To me, This is the only view that the context of 1 Corinthians 13:10 allows. For God to have us grow up spiritually is something He wants now, not when we go to heaven (view #1) or when Jesus return again: God wants mature Christians now .
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,726
5,328
113
Florida
Still will allow for God to do healings and miracles, but none do it now as Apostles could, and canon was closed, so no new and additional "revelations"

Agreed. God healing is not actually the question here. God does heal as HE chooses to do so.

The point is......."MEN/WOMEN today do not have the power of God to heal people today as did the Apostles in the 1st century.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Dec 19, 2014
6,522
2,842
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
I think some do but they wouldn't advertise now. It would be too much like those american comic book heroes/heroines coming to life.

Of course many people still dream of having special powers that will vanquish evil, but with great power comes great responsibility. A lot of people these days would abuse that power.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Sep 3, 2009
12,726
5,328
113
Florida
I think some do but they wouldn't advertise now. It would be too much like those american comic book heroes/heroines coming to life.

Of course many people still dream of having special powers that will vanquish evil, but with great power comes great responsibility. A lot of people these days would abuse that power.

I do not agree. If you say that "Some do", then that opens the door to anyone and everyone who will and have fleeced the flock and manipulated the weak and those in distressed.

NO ONE.....Biblically speaking, has the power that was given to the Apostles to heal, speak in tongues, raise the dead and have all knowledge.
 
Dec 19, 2014
6,522
2,842
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
I do not agree. If you say that "Some do", then that opens the door to anyone and everyone who will and have fleeced the flock and manipulated the weak and those in distressed.

NO ONE.....Biblically speaking, has the power that was given to the Apostles to heal, speak in tongues, raise the dead and have all knowledge.
not everyone has ALL the gifts all at once Major.

sorry you don't agree, we know you don't agree, but that's just really your opinion. And you are entitled to your own opinion, but it doesn't make it everyone else's experience.
 
Dec 19, 2014
6,522
2,842
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
I wouldn’t mind raising the dead...
There’s a few people I would bring back!
Starting with elvis haha
I don't think he'd want to come back.
I think most people are happy in paradise if that is their destination and wouldn't really want to come back to the world we have now.

Although I think children deserve a chance at life if they died young but what have they to come back to as so many live in poverty and injustice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Via dolarossa
Sep 3, 2009
12,726
5,328
113
Florida
not everyone has ALL the gifts all at once Major.

sorry you don't agree, we know you don't agree, but that's just really your opinion. And you are entitled to your own opinion, but it doesn't make it everyone else's experience.

I have no opinions sister. As I said, what I do is present Biblical truths as found in the Word of God and I do not speculate or have opinins. If and when I do, I AM the first one to say exactly that.

Again, in this case the Bible says that ALL ELEVEN of the Apostles had ALL the Sign Gifts ALL at one time.

Mark 16:17-18...........
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: (That was the ELEVEN to who Jesus was speaking to at that time)
1. In my name they will drive out demons;
2. they will speak in new tongues;
3. they will pick up snakes with their hands;
4. and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;
5. they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

No where in those Scriptures or anywhere else in the Bible does it say that the Apostles did not have ALL the Sign Gifts at one time.

Now, according to the Word of God, not my opinion, NO ONE has any of the Sign Gifts today as there are NO Biblical Apostles to have them.
It is just that simple.
 
Sep 3, 2009
12,726
5,328
113
Florida
I think some do but they wouldn't advertise now. It would be too much like those american comic book heroes/heroines coming to life.

Of course many people still dream of having special powers that will vanquish evil, but with great power comes great responsibility. A lot of people these days would abuse that power.

Now your 2nd paragraph is certainly an opinion that we can all agree with.

I am just very glad that Superman can do all the things he does and still remain as just a good ole country boy like me.
 
Nov 18, 2020
132
114
43
60
Macomb Michigan
Agreed. God healing is not actually the question here. God does heal as HE chooses to do so.

The point is......."MEN/WOMEN today do not have the power of God to heal people today as did the Apostles in the 1st century.
Yes, as the big difference is some see us as now still in Acts, modern day Apostles and prophets, but most of us see us as not having any additional revelations or those gifted with sign gifts today!
 
Nov 18, 2020
132
114
43
60
Macomb Michigan
I have no opinions sister. As I said, what I do is present Biblical truths as found in the Word of God and I do not speculate or have opinins. If and when I do, I AM the first one to say exactly that.

Again, in this case the Bible says that ALL ELEVEN of the Apostles had ALL the Sign Gifts ALL at one time.

Mark 16:17-18...........
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: (That was the ELEVEN to who Jesus was speaking to at that time)
1. In my name they will drive out demons;
2. they will speak in new tongues;
3. they will pick up snakes with their hands;
4. and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;
5. they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

No where in those Scriptures or anywhere else in the Bible does it say that the Apostles did not have ALL the Sign Gifts at one time.

Now, according to the Word of God, not my opinion, NO ONE has any of the Sign Gifts today as there are NO Biblical Apostles to have them.
It is just that simple.
The Word of faith shows us what happens in theology when the Scriptures are no longer seen as being the only sure word from the Lord...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major

Via dolarossa

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Sep 22, 2016
1,040
1,313
113
Lordie Land
The Word of faith shows us what happens in theology when the Scriptures are no longer seen as being the only sure word from the Lord...
What do you mean?
I kinda like one pastor ( not naming names) who apparently is a word of faith pastor.( I can’t say I am of the word of faith die hard theology group as I’m still finding my feet in the theology camp) but please
Could you explain what you mean or what you see happens when the Scriptures are no longer seen as being the only sure word from the Lord.
Many thanks xx
 
  • Like
Reactions: bobinfaith
Nov 18, 2020
132
114
43
60
Macomb Michigan
What do you mean?
I kinda like one pastor ( not naming names) who apparently is a word of faith pastor.( I can’t say I am of the word of faith die hard theology group as I’m still finding my feet in the theology camp) but please
Could you explain what you mean or what you see happens when the Scriptures are no longer seen as being the only sure word from the Lord.
Many thanks xx
They teach that we can command God to give is the desires of our hearts, as even God must obey the law of faith, That Jesus died as a sinner, had to bet born again while in hell, and that we as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was!
They also hold with divine health and wealth, so if any believer poor or sick, lack of faith period!
 

Via dolarossa

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Sep 22, 2016
1,040
1,313
113
Lordie Land
They also hold with divine health and wealth, so if any believer poor or sick, lack of faith period!
I never looked into WOF movement that much, thanks.

I really don’t get how they can be so sure that it’s lack of faith or prayer that’s the problem. If that’s the case, then I’ll argue to say, that the pastor in question is not teaching the correct way to pray if one of his flock is sick or poor. I think these churches should be buy now pay later( after the healing)
That’ll put a stop to their chocolates😊
 
  • Like
Reactions: Major
Status
Not open for further replies.