Yes. That is an indictment against those who are lost, and yet trying to argue their justification before a Righteous God.
MM
Doctrine of Children?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
Yes. That is an indictment against those who are lost, and yet trying to argue their justification before a Righteous God.
MM
Correct.
Scripture implies there will be two major judgments taking place in the end.
Christ will be judge at both. One is for all who have rejected Christ and refused God's gift of eternal life through putting their faith in Jesus. Non-believers will be judged on their own righteousness and come up short of reaching God's standard. This is often referred to as the "Great white throne judgment."
The other judgment will be of those who are Christians. This is sometimes called the judgment seat of Christ, or the "Bema seat." As I have already explained to you, it is There, that Jesus will examine each believer's words and works and determine what rewards will be given or withheld in eternity. That judgment does not determine eternal destiny, nor can a believer lose their salvation there.
Agreed.
Exactly......"For if we sin WILFULLY.........."!
The overall context of the passage, the book of Hebrews, and the entire New Testament, still stands. These Scripture should not be interpreted in a manner inconsistent with the rest of Scripture.
The Greek phrasing here is interpreted as to "go on sinning," or as "willfully sinning."
"Willfully sinning," would be where those who have legitimately accepted Christ, but who purposefully fail to fully submit to His will. It's true that the Bible sets forth a certain expectation for those who are saved; namely, they are generally expected to live as if they believe. However, this very letter of Hebrews pointed out the dangers of falling into faithlessness and disbelief That prior warning was given very explicitly to saved believers, and included similar language to what follows.
Earlier in this chapter, the writer of Hebrews pointed out that the sacrifice of Christ was a single, once for all event. For this reason, there are no longer additional sacrifices being made, in heaven, for the forgiveness of sins .
When sin is truly forgiven, there is no longer a sacrifice to remove it. The other side of that truth, however, is revealed here. Those who reject Christ reject the one and only sacrifice which can save them. There is not, and will never be, any other means to remove sin.
Thanks for asking about this Scripture and it is my hope that you can now understand it better.
Their was once a very well known country singer who had been raised in such a religion. He sang some of the most beautiful hymns, but he loved his drink. He couldn't keep his salvation which made him lead a sorrowful life as some of his music reflected. He never found peace in his life. His name was Hank Williams. Hyper Arminianism destroys lives, negates the gospel, and drives to madness people who want a real relationship with God
Yep! Sad, sad truth!
You did not say anything about "willfully" or knowing the law.
The truth however is that YOU just proved my point. It has nothing to do with knowing about sin. We sin because we are sinners!
What does this have to do with people in the military????
Are you suggesting that being in a war and murder are the same? If so did GOD direct the Israelites to commit murder when He had them kill all the inhabitants of the promised land? Just looking for clarification.
What is the extent to which you understand as the meaning behind "willfully" sinning?
MM
True, but they are still infected with sin, which is not allowed into Heaven, just as the OT saints were not allowed into Heaven until after the shed Blood of Christ, and who had sought to obey the Law of God. Babies could not seek obedience, and yet were/are infected with sin, and are not born again. I'm not saying they're going to Hell for that, but rather will be afforded the opportunity to make that choice in life rather than to bypass the explicit revelation Christ made, in that ALL must be born again to enter into Haven.
It is the Lord Himself who made allowances for nations to have a defense against foreign invaders. What does that have to do with children and Heaven?
MM
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Yahshuah was simply pointing to the little children as being reflective of the character traits that a true believer should exhibit and live AS a true believer. He did not say in that context that children will go straight into Heaven, and nowhere did He state that children get around His command that ALL must be born again prior to salvation and entry into Heaven. Do you have evidence that children are born again in the sense of what Jesus commanded?
MM
The question still remains, as a consistent continuance of the topic of this thread:
How can children enter into Heaven in contrast to:
1) ...Ye must be born again...
2) They are infused with sin at the point of conception from their earthly father.
3) They have not yet made that decision for or against Christ, but which the Millennium might afford them in the future for every one of them.
4) Given the proportions of ALL humanity, as declared by Christ Himself, in that the majority have and will reject Him.
As stated before, I don't see any way around any of these realities, upon which I have built the concept of the "reset" into the Millennium where they will be weeded out as to who accepts and who rejects Christ and His atonement.
If this is true, which I believe it is as a possibility:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
This applies to ALL humanity, throughout ALL of time, including the Millennium.
I'm not discounting the building of a belief that all babies and children go to Heaven, but my take on such a building is that there must be loopholes around the items I point out above in my four points...never minding silly books like Heaven Is For Real, etc. That stuff just fails to grapple with SO many biblical realities.
Let's talk about where the rubber meets the road, exclusive of any and all emotional argumentation.
MM
How can children enter into Heaven in contrast to:
1) ...Ye must be born again...
2) They are infused with sin at the point of conception from their earthly father.
3) They have not yet made that decision for or against Christ, but which the Millennium might afford them in the future for every one of them.
4) Given the proportions of ALL humanity, as declared by Christ Himself, in that the majority have and will reject Him.
As stated before, I don't see any way around any of these realities, upon which I have built the concept of the "reset" into the Millennium where they will be weeded out as to who accepts and who rejects Christ and His atonement.
If this is true, which I believe it is as a possibility:
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
This applies to ALL humanity, throughout ALL of time, including the Millennium.
I'm not discounting the building of a belief that all babies and children go to Heaven, but my take on such a building is that there must be loopholes around the items I point out above in my four points...never minding silly books like Heaven Is For Real, etc. That stuff just fails to grapple with SO many biblical realities.
Let's talk about where the rubber meets the road, exclusive of any and all emotional argumentation.
MM
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My wife bought me a gift set of Hank Williams original songs. It was a 2 disk set and some were scratchy but they were fantastic.
What is this supposed to mean? Clarify it for us.
Where the rubber meets the road, is that the Bible doesn’t explicitly answer the question of whether children who die before they are born again go to heaven. However, enough indirect information can be pieced together from Scripture to provide a satisfactory answer, which relates to infants as well as those with mental handicaps and others.
You are concerned with People who, upon seeing and evaluating the evidence of nature, reject God are “without excuse.” This raises some questions in your mind and they are good points.......
1). If a child is too young to know right from wrong and possesses no capacity for reasoning about God, then is that child exempted from judgment?
2). Will God hold babies responsible for not responding to the gospel, when they are incapable of understanding the gospel message?
I have stated and do so again that I believe that granting saving grace to babies and young children, on the basis of the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement, is consistent with God’s love and mercy.
The principle Jesus lays down in John 9 is that God does not condemn people for things they are unable to do.
“Sin is measured by the capacities or ability of people, and by their opportunities of knowing the truth. If people had no ability to do the will of God, they could incur no blame. If they have all proper ability, and no disposition, God holds them to be guilty”.
Source: (Albert Barnes, New Testament Notes: Explanatory and Practical, ed. by Robert Frew, Baker Book House, Vol. 1,/ “Jn. 9:41”).
According to this principle, babies and young children and mentally unstable who are unable to accept or reject Christ are not held accountable for unbelief.
Then you have agreed with me all along because I have taught that now for 50 years!
Yes.
Actually, no. I already am aware that those who reject God, when they can see His reality in creation, they are indeed without excuse, and so that was never an issue with me.
No. They are not. However, the caveat is:
This is a critical juncture, and that's why I put forth the idea that they will indeed reach that point of "understanding," as have most of humanity throughout the ages. Rather than to bypass the absolute mandate for being born again, they will have that opportunity in the Millennium so that they do not bypass the mandate for the requirement to be born again to gain entrance into Heaven.
As you already stated, no verse anywhere makes allowances for any inability to make that decision as getting around having to be born again by choice in calling upon the name of the Lord. In that we are in full agreement. We're not told either way.
This is precisely why I have used this topic as a means for solidifying in the belief systems of others that the word of God is absolute...in that when He said that ALL must be born again to enter into Heaven, that they take that seriously, and independent of any emotional arguments, such as babies getting around that on the basis of their inability. No! That doesn't work either, because it casts an iron rod of human reasoning into the spoked wheel (so to speak) of the absolute for the requirement to be born again as Christ Himself stated without any caveat of situational allowance. It's absolute, period.
As I have said before, Major, you REALLY made me think when you brought into this mix the mentally handicapped. That's another good thought for consideration, and I thank you for that.
But it is not consistent with the requirement to be born again, and the Millennium is an excellent time for that point in their lives on this earth, in this life, to take place.
You see, when we start making exceptions to the absolute commands of Christ, where do we stop? How do we choose the stopping point for the diversions away from the absolute commands of Christ? The sufficiency in the Blood of Christ is not an argument when it has no basis for support from the scriptures as including a subjective excuse manufactured on the basis of our human love for babies, children and the handicapped.
This tends to undermine the voracity and fierce strength in the absoluteness of God's commands and declarations.
Ok, let's look at that:
Well, there is something else Jesus said that flattens the tire in how I think you may be trying to apply that context:
John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."
The application of this that you seem to be making is lacking in the comparison. Why?
Here is the crux:
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.
Sin, in the meaning of what? Here is what Thayer's Greek Lexicon has to say about the Greek of that passage:
ἔχειν ἁμαρτίαν to have sin as though it were one's odious private property, or to have done something needing expiation, equivalent to to have committed sin, John 9:41;
This is not talking about original sin, but rather sins committed...the commission of sins, of which we can't necessarily accuse babies, young children and all the mentally handicapped. No.
However, this does not offer a way out for the sin into which we are all born, inclusive of babies, young children and some of the mentally handicapped. It's reasonable, therefore, to say that they cannot yet be allowed into Heaven, but also not are cast away into Hell until they make that choice in the Millennium.
Again, everyone, please keep in mind that this is only what seems reasonable on the basis of the absolutes we are told about. I am not trying to create some new, absolute doctrine here. These are just some thoughts that have come to me from my belief in the solidity of the absolutes in doctrine that we can all verify from scripture.
MM
Oh, and generally speaking, when I talk about "reset," that is not a promotion of the silliness attributable to paganism's "reincarnation" beliefs, etc.
The pagan concept of Karma has nothing whatsoever to do with this, so please, let's dispense with that because it tends to demonize this whole discussion.
MM
The pagan concept of Karma has nothing whatsoever to do with this, so please, let's dispense with that because it tends to demonize this whole discussion.
MM
You said.........
"You see, when we start making exceptions to the absolute commands of Christ, where do we stop?"
Totally agreed. The same thing applies to the idea of your comment of........"and the Millennium is an excellent time for that point in their lives on this earth, in this life, to take place."
That is also Not a Bible mandate or suggestion. I think that if what you are implying does not work one way it then can not work the other way.