Actually, I had entertained that as a possibility as to how they enter the Millennial Kingdom, and it's interesting that you considered that as a possibility. It's definitely a possibility, though.



I had to look that one up. I hand't encountered that term nor its defining concept before.

No, I don't see that as viable. If we were to apply or reject that one in relation to the topic at hand, I don't see that it introduces any kind of crisis.



Valid point taken. Let's look again at what the Lord said about proportions:

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

As you may recall, this is one of the foundational doctrines upon which I build this concept when I stated that the majority of babies, young children and mentally handicapped who would go into the Millennium will perish from having rejected Christ, based on the very words of Christ.



No offense to anyone who subscribes to that confession, but it's still rooted in human thinking and perceptions at the exclusion of a systematic analysis of what the Lord inspired to be written. It appears to me that this article of that confession is rooted more in emotion than it is solid theology, given that it tries to play on the Sovereignty of God.

I have avoided this error by openly admitting that I may be wrong...completely wrong, and that they are attributed the new birth without ever having had to make it to that point in life. However, I have grave doubts that there is a way around being born again without Christ having made some mention of that side-road around His absolute declaration.

Matthew 22:11-13
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12 "So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

I don't see anywhere in scripture that there is any short-cuts.

MM
Short cuts......NO.

Alternative explinations....YES.
 
Now, after having been so busy, let's develop this topic further:

John 3:1-15, 17-21
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus at night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God [as] a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother's womb a second time and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and [the] Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit."

Notice the white spaces between the lines, in that nothing else is written as a caveat to the words of our Lord.

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel, and [yet] you do not understand these things?
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you [people] do not accept our testimony.

Why were the people not accepting His testimony? Man always likes to think that he's smart enough to know how to make his way into Heaven, and will invent all manner of side-paths and try to stand ladders up against the wall to crawl over the top, and thus cheating the rules the Lord sets forth here and in other places.

The more dangerous aspect of this are those things couched in strong enough emotions that we search for any nuance, any little foothold that seems to give support for what WE want to believe, such as the fate of babies and young children. The words of our Lord have already been quoted where He clearly stated that the majority of mankind is on the WIDE path leading to destruction.

Again He offered no exceptions to the requirement for the new birth in the Spirit for entrance into Heaven. To say that there is "another way," that's a dangerous exception to suggest when a systematic study, in-depth, to any and all the wording in the perceived exceptions, and those exceptions fall flat in my studies to date.

12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 "No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14 "And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

When Jesus spoke of being AS the little children, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven, that was not a declaration for their automatic salvation, but an appeal to their character. I firmly believe what He stated in this regard, for if more of us were as little children in our character, there would be far less strife in families, road rage, and hatred in general. The world would be a far better place.

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Babies and children, according to God's perfect justice, I think, will be afforded the opportunity to make that decision rather than to get around the core requirements the Lord set down for ALL of mankind, especially given that the majority of them will reject the Lord at that point, and beyond.

This is not an appeal to the exact means by which they will be afforded the opportunity to make that choice, but parents who did not parent their children in the ways and word of the Lord, yes, I can understand their concern. What parent wants to stand before the Lord and answer for not having raised up their children in the admonition of the Lord?

19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.
21 "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God."

The idea that this will be attributed automatically to babies and children who passed from this life before reaching that point of decision, that forces so much test into the white spaces within scripture, and is therefore and eisegetical interpretation model, which is not something we accept from Mormons and JW's, but will turn around and perpetrate that very practice on the basis of our emotions.

You see, it's actually a good thing for them to be afforded that opportunity, because it gets around any and all interpretational methods that open up all kinds of doors to utilizing the same flaws for interpretation that the cults are known to apply as an attempt for a defense of their warped theologies.

As before, I'm not saying that I'm absolutely correct in this. Only the Lord knows, and He is the One who should be consulted as to the truth of this, because, like you, it's seemingly impossible to believe that they will be cast into the lake of fire because they were sinners who never had the opportunity to call upon the name of the Lord for salvation that only He can provide to any of us.

MM
 
Those who are born again of the Spirit become as little children.

Jesus said:

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:3
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(Mar 10:14-16)

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them."
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Hello Robin;

We’re blessed you are back. Let’s return to the heart of worship.

In response to Matthew 18 and Mark 14 also has a teaching point. Children don’t love mean tempered people. But they will receive the gentle love of a parent or grownup imulating the love of Jesus.

When I think of the doctrine of children we are teaching them to build up their faith in God, and to take that doctrine and apply what they believe. I found that at a “child age” it is a good age to teach them about Jesus.

There was a time when I was introduced to Jesus at a young age. As a grownup man or woman of God our ministry is to introduce a child to Christ and not forsake them in this valuable teaching.

God bless you, Robin.

Bob in faith
 
Those who are born again of the Spirit become as little children.

Jesus said:

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:3
.
(Mar 10:14-16)

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them."
.

Yes, we are to be AS little children.

Recently, an intelligent lawyer friend of mine said that he believed those verses, and others, are what indicates that all babies and children are automatically saved because of the character they have that we should have as believers.

What I tried to convey to him is that no amount of character, no matter how great, will ever save anyone.

Example: Probably 99% of people out there believe that "mother Teresa" woman is in Heaven because she did such good works, even though she wrote a letter to John Paul II requesting that he issue an edicts calling for greater and greater veneration (worship) of their Mary. I think to myself much as to how surprised so many would be if it turns out that all her good works didn't save her, and we know that NO amount of works saves anyone!

How profound is that?

So, we're still left with the solidity of the doctrine, easily derived from scripture, where the Lord of Glory Himself said that NOBODY will see the Kingdom of Heaven except that they are born again, and I continue to search the scriptures for any, and I mean even a miniscule hint, that there is any exception to that doctrinal absolute. I simply can't find even a hint of such...not anywhere.

MM
 
Hello Robin;

We’re blessed you are back. Let’s return to the heart of worship.

In response to Matthew 18 and Mark 14 also has a teaching point. Children don’t love mean tempered people. But they will receive the gentle love of a parent or grownup imulating the love of Jesus.

When I think of the doctrine of children we are teaching them to build up their faith in God, and to take that doctrine and apply what they believe. I found that at a “child age” it is a good age to teach them about Jesus.

There was a time when I was introduced to Jesus at a young age. As a grownup man or woman of God our ministry is to introduce a child to Christ and not forsake them in this valuable teaching.

God bless you, Robin.

Bob in faith

Excellent point, Bob. I fully agree with scripture where it is written:

[Pro 22:6 KJV] 6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

As it is, the fluctuations in the populations of true believers has swung variously through the decades, and today is at a low ebb, with the turning away taking place right before our very eyes.

So, ultimately, every child makes their own choices, and the decision to follow Christ is one that was robbed from so many through the eons of time, and I suspect will be afforded to them in the Millennium Kingdom so that there are no baby goats in the flock of the sheep at His Right Hand who got around the absolute declaration of the Lord that all must be born again to see Heaven.

I could be wrong, but I must stand upon the absolute for all mankind the requirement for being born again to enter Heaven.

MM
 
.
Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18).

Because a baby or young child does not know the law, they cannot knowingly disobey the law. By the same token they cannot rebel against a God they do not know.

Here are a few possible sins. There are many more see the link below. But I ask the qeustion, “Can a baby or small child be guilty of committing these sins?”

ABORTION
ACCUSING
NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THINE INIQUITY
ADULTERY
AFRAID TO CONFESS JESUS TO PEOPLE
ANXIOUS
ARGUING
ARROGANCE (SWELLINGS) (PROUD)
ASHAMED, HIDING YOUR LIGHT FOR JESUS
ASHAMED OF JESUS AND HIS WORDS
ASSAULT
ASTROLOGY
BACKBITING
REFUSED TO BE BAPTIZED

List Of Bible Sins - Believers Portal

You will say a baby has a sinful nature. I would say that to be a sinner, you first need to sin.

It is sin that separates us from God. Until then, a baby or young child is safe in the arms of Jesus.

My view comes from scripture.
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Robin, I appreciate what you're saying, but I disagree where babies and children are concerned:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The grammatical and contextual meaning of the "world" in verse 12, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

"to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12"

In that context, an in no other contexts, there are no exception made for babies and children. If you believe there is such an exception, then please quote it from the Bible.

The clear statement made in verse 12 above makes no illusions to what is committed. Sin is present in us all from the moment of conception since sin entered the world. Babies and children are in the world, even at the point of conception.

Do you now see what scripture is saying?

Additionally, there are also no exception made for babies and children in the context of Christ's declaration:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Please show to us where the word of God states that commission is the only basis upon which one is seen as a sinner by the Lord.

I will show otherwise:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Notice the key in that verse, "have", which denotes "to have, (hold) possession of" in the Thayer's Greek Lexicon. It does not say commit, but to HAVE, to POSSESS. I know of no verse anywhere that even implies the idea that one becomes a sinner only after commission of it. The context doesn't place possession after commission. That concept is nowhere stated that I have even seen.

MM
 
Robin, to go one step further, and I fully agree with what you said in that the COMMISSION of sin is the transgression of God's Moral Law that He writes into our hearts, but when you stop there and ignore the systematic understanding of sin, that's where one goes into error. The COMMISSION of sin is transgression of the Law, but the PRESENCE of sin is in ALL, from the point of conception, onward.

MM
 
Satan was there in the garden with them, but it was only when they knowingly disobeyed the Lord and succumbed to Satan's trickery that they were thrust out from the presence of the Lord.
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Robin, when you hone in on one aspect, rather than to accept what ALL of scripture has to say on any given topic, that's when people enter into error in their theology. It's the very imagery in that garden, the intentional act of disobedience on that part of Adam, that sin entered into us ALL, which includes babies and young children.

If what you're saying were true, then the virgin birth has no meaning nor purpose. In reality, the virgin birth speaks loud volumes the fact that Jesus was born without original (Adamic) sin because He had no earthly father who contributed the necessary seed for sin to have been introduced into His earthly body. At conception, Jesus was different from all the rest of mankind.

Again, you have avoided my questions and requests for quotes from any verse that even implies that babies and young children are without sin.

MM
 
In Ezekiel 18:20 we read, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." Here God is telling us that children do not inherit sin from their parents, grandparents, or any of their forefathers, all the way back to Adam. It says "The son shall not bear the guilt of the Father."
.

Robin, if you read that more carefully, you will see that your application of it, in this discussion, is a complete misapplication of what that scripture is saying in Ezekiel.

I never said that the sins committed by fathers are what are transferred to the children. We're not talking about the transference of one's guilt for their own sins to another. What I've been talking about all along is the transference of the NATURE of sin from the father to the children. Those are not one and the same, although it is by the sin nature that we all sin...that's the only correlation we can draw.

This is a warning to us all, and an encouragement to us all:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Please read that context in Ezekiel 18, and without any coloring that distorts the clear language of what's said.

MM
 
Everyone has freewill. Our parents did as well. This is the nature of natural man through the generations. We see it in Adam and Eve. We also have the freewill to decide who we follow and obey. The apostle Paul made his choice, and I chose Christ also.

Choose this day who you will serve. Joshua 24:15. The call goes out.
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I think that is exactly what MM has been saying all along, everyone has freewill and must CHOOSE. A child that dies before they are able to understand that choice can not then make such a choice. He is suggesting that they would be given another chance in the millenium to either choose Christ Jesus or to reject Him. I can not find any scripture that supports either idea. I don't have to know what GODS' plan is to know that He has one. I know that GOD is just and already has taken care of this situation.
 
Everyone has freewill. Our parents did as well. This is the nature of natural man through the generations. We see it in Adam and Eve. We also have the freewill to decide who we follow and obey. The apostle Paul made his choice, and I chose Christ also.

Choose this day who you will serve. Joshua 24:15. The call goes out.
.

Yes, Robin. Absolutely. We all have free will, and that doesn't deflect away from us the guilt of having been conceived and born in sin, Adam's sin that infected us all from the point of conception. Jesus is the ONLY One who was not plagued by Adam's sin because He had no earthly father's seed to transfer that sin to His physical body.

This is one of many points where RCC has been so horridly wrong when they assumed that Mary was without sin. That is a doctrine of demons because she had an earthly father. All I'm saying in that statement is that no religion is infallible, which includes RCC. It's recent changes in its doctrines is evidence for this, because God Himself, the God described in the Bible, has revealed to us that He changes NOT, and yet their god adds dogmas and changes dogmas through the centuries as declared by a series of allegedly "infallible" popes. The followers of that religion are free to believe as they wish.

MM
 
I have shown you.

"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." (Ezekiel 18:20)
.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

I've already asked that you re-read that verse you quoted, and acknowledge that you are grossly misapplying it. There's a difference between COMMISSION of sin, and the fact that we were all BORN in sin...we inherited our sin nature from Adam, which is passed to us all by way of earthly father's seed. Jesus was born without that sin because He was not conceived from an earthly, fallen father's seed.

So, it remains even now that your misapplication of that verse in Ezekiel is indeed a fact.

Now, if you are going to now declare that the Psalmist was wrong in what he wrote, as is quoted above, then please expound upon the reasons we should disbelieve what is written.

Further proof:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

See that? BY NATURE! THAT is what we inherited from Adam. It is by the NATURE of sin that all are condemned until he or she is BORN AGAIN.

That nature cannot be allowed into Heaven, and the only way it is purged, paid for, eradicated from our person, is through being born again, which includes children and babies.

Now, again, please show to us where there was ever any exclusion to the requirement to be born again. Can you do that?

MM
 
I have shown you.

"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die," and sinis transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Our soul.

Matthew 19:14 says that the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like little children.

Yes, but you are spreading that LIKENESS over into the realm of automatic salvation for children, and that is not at all what Jesus said. He was pointing at the character of children. Nowhere did He say that they are sinless! If you believe they were ever declared sinless in scripture, then please show that to us.

But if little children are totally depraved because they have inherited Adam's sin, then this would mean that the kingdom of heaven consists of people who aretotally depraved! Surely this is not a true conclusion. The correct meaning is that kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like little children because little children are innocent (Jeremiah 19:4).

.

Wait a minute! I never said anything about being totally depraved. I have spoken ONLY to the fact of the sin nature being within ALL of humanity, including babies and children. The sin nature is the means by which any one of us sins. If we did not have the sin nature within us at conception, as was the case with Jesus, then we would have been able to live a sinless life as did Jesus, and therefore have no need for His shed Blood.

Now, can you show us where scripture declares what you seem to be saying, in that babies and children are born sinless, because I have shown to you in Psalm 51 that such a belief is wrong?

MM
 
I have shown you.

"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die," and sinis transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Our soul.

Matthew 19:14 says that the kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like little children. But if little children are totally depraved because they have inherited Adam's sin, then this would mean that the kingdom of heaven consists of people who aretotally depraved! Surely this is not a true conclusion. The correct meaning is that kingdom of heaven belongs to people who are like little children because little children are innocent (Jeremiah 19:4).

.

It has always saddened me when I see good people such as yourself, falsely taught the traditions of men and who then are unable to do the Bible study and work to find the truth of God's Word.

The Holiness Pentacostal denomination has done more to harm the cause of Christ than just about anything else I can think of.

I have had this very same conversation over the years more times than I can remember. It seems that the most frequently cited passage against original sin by those who WANT to believe what a man has told them is probably Ezekiel 18:20. Taken out of context, this verse might seem quite helpful to the position against Original Sin. Once we read it in context, though, such a view of the verse collapses, for the verse is part of a larger rhetorical message, namely, if you repent, you will be saved – regardless of the sins of your parents or children. One has to actually want to do the work involved to know the truth.

You see Robin.........The chapter in Ezekiel that you posted is a response to the Jewish, extra-Scriptural) proverb which said..........
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.”

The proverb is a challenge to God’s fairness. In essence, the proverb is the complaining proverb a people suffering for their sins, but seeking to place the blame elsewhere. God responds to this proverb by telling the people that they should not make excuses: if they will repent, they will be saved.

You can easily see that the “sour grapes” proverb, the people are, in essence, saying that they have done everything right, but God is still punishing them, because their fathers were wicked. YOU can see that this is not something unique to the Jews of Ezekiel’s day when YOU read Matthew 23:29-32.

So then.......you can see that one of the greatest mistakes in all of Christianity is to "Cherry Pick" a Scripture taken out of context and then base a doctrine out of it, and that is exactly what you have just done.
 
We are not judged for Adam's sin. Only our own sin.

If people want to include Adam's sin, then that would include Hitler et.al. and nobody would go to heaven.
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Robin.........We as Christians are NOT judged at all! Our sin was judged and paid for by Jesus.
 
"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor shall the father bear the guilt of the son." (Ezekiel 18:20)

Don't blame Adam. The cumulative weight of everyone's sin down the ages would be a mountain too high.

Instead, let each and every one blame ourselves for misusing our God-given free will, because that is what we shall be judged on. (Plus, have we given a coat to the poor or a drink to the thirsty?)
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We are born sinners by nature and because of that we sin.

We are born in sin due to Adam.

Psalms 51:5...........
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Romans 5:12.........
"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned".

Psalm 58:3............
"The wicked are estranged from the womb;
These who speak lies go astray from birth."

What other words do YOU think God could have used that would allow you to better understand what He is saying????????

I am amazed that anyone can read the Word of God and be so confused and misled.
 
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