Does Church Attendance Equal To A High Spiritual Level?

A person can "attend" an official, weekly meeting in an owned church building, be an officially recognized member of that church, and still do none of the work of the church. If we want to talk about drawing closer to God (I assume that's what's meant by "high spiritual level") let's stop talking about churches as if they were things to be attended, and start talking about how to be the church outside of that building.

I submit to you that in the best understanding of "the church," it's not possible to attend church, it's only possible to be (or not be) the church. Meeting together (and there are just a handful of stipulations on the formality, frequency and location of those meetings) is only one part of the work of the church, and if the rest of the work of the church is being neglected, the meetings are just a facade.
 
great stuff Roads.

Also last night on some crime channel, there was this cop who had to go undercover in some major naughty organisation, I remember him saying at the end that if all his efforts were so that the woman's family could finally have some answers then his mission was complete.

He (the cop) actually had his personal life threatened, house burned down etc by that organisation, and he basically put his life on the line, had to put on tattoos and just look bad.

We should never underestimate the call that God has on people's lives simply because they are not "frontline ministries" per say, or your average "oohhh here I am praying etc" type of ministry. God has His own in ALL walks of life.

What I have come to accept church as is that its a place for me to replenish, restock and refresh myself so I can go out there to "my real church" which is the broken world. so sorry to say that I may not attend your every meeting, dancing and prancing about - what I want, what I know I want is to hear God say - "well done you good and faithful servant, you knew what your call was and did not get it mixed up, you gave it your all and touched/changed lives through your obedience".

I think we should challenge ourselves with this question on a regular basis. What is my call? Don't limit God to the religious/church. Open up your heart, who knows you could be a tattoo artist or talk to prostitutes - whatever it is He has equipped you and confirmed over and over to be His will for your life through various means?

God is so unlimited.
 
Huntingteckel said:
I like this post. I really want to find a good church but it's so hard. Honestly, if it was just gathering with Christians I'd be more likely to attend. I feel the members have very little to do with anything during sermons, and I have a hard time listening to a pastor butcher the Gospel. I've been known to walk out in the middle of sermons.
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Then find a place that concentrates on teaching, not preaching. I know -- easier written than done. But seriously, where I attend, I hear maybe three sermons a year; they do concentrate on teaching. Finding such a place can be done, or you can just go to their teachings and avoid the sermons. Find a place that concentrates on Bible education, possibly one connected to a school or whose leaders see the people as those who need/require/desire biblical education.

Huntingteckel said:
I think a Bible study group would probably be a better environment for me, which is honestly what I feel like church should be anyway.
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You already know what I wrote above.

Huntingteckel said:
There are two churches I'd like to try out, but one is Baptist so I'm fairly certain that it won't work out, and the other doesn't appear to have Wednesday night gatherings. I work every weekend so I can't go on Sunday. Maybe I'll find another one soon that has services on days I can attend.
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Please don't automatically discount those who call themselves "Baptist." My children were in a Baptist school before we left MPLS, and both the school and the church were great. Yes, I admit that when I was excommunicated, I tried several Baptist churches and could not stay, but . . . .

Huntingteckel said:
I can only imagine the discussions I would have with my fellow church people. They'd probably ask me to leave like other churches have done.
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I really think you need to think this out: why have several churches asked you to leave? There has to be a reason: they're not asking everyone to leave; what is the reason you are asked to multiple times?

When I was excommunicated, it was because I told the pastor I would not continue to follow the special rule they had set up for me alone. No one else, that I know of, was asked specifically to abide by the rule; in fact, others were specifically allowed to do it, and I was even told this! But because I was a teacher, a group leader, a soloist, and had been asked to fill in on a few speaking assignments, I was told I had to remove my simple gold wedding band while in the church and that I could not wear a watch on a chain about my neck.

Now, Hunting, I knew they had these special rules for me, but I did these things anyway. I didn't know they would excommunicate me, but I knew they were likely to retaliate. Are you deliberately doing something you know is socially unacceptable, and you do it anyway?

Religious civil disobedience. Sometimes, it is necessary, but when you do it, no matter how silly or ungodly they are, you have to accept it and move on -- you knew it was coming. That's what civil disobedience in the congregation is about: do what you must but accept the result. Then move on to a place where this silliness doesn't happen.
 
I also just marvel at people who barely know God for long, or hear only a couple of words but get to change the world on those few revelations.

I think of people who are new born baby Christians and a month after they are saved go and accomplish enormous tasks, major feats for the Kingdom.

Dear LORD,
What am I doing with alllll the food I have eaten to date in your word? Let do with what you give me, let me do much.

I think about how we have received tons of food in church, but how does that translate into my mission and my purpose, what have I accomplished in my realm. Christ died for a broken world, we are His hands and feet.
 
tezriLi said:
Then find a place that concentrates on teaching, not preaching. I know -- easier written than done. But seriously, where I attend, I hear maybe three sermons a year; they do concentrate on teaching. Finding such a place can be done, or you can just go to their teachings and avoid the sermons. Find a place that concentrates on Bible education, possibly one connected to a school or whose leaders see the people as those who need/require/desire biblical education.

You already know what I wrote above.

Please don't automatically discount those who call themselves "Baptist." My children were in a Baptist school before we left MPLS, and both the school and the church were great. Yes, I admit that when I was excommunicated, I tried several Baptist churches and could not stay, but . . . .

I really think you need to think this out: why have several churches asked you to leave? There has to be a reason: they're not asking everyone to leave; what is the reason you are asked to multiple times?

When I was excommunicated, it was because I told the pastor I would not continue to follow the special rule they had set up for me alone. No one else, that I know of, was asked specifically to abide by the rule; in fact, others were specifically allowed to do it, and I was even told this! But because I was a teacher, a group leader, a soloist, and had been asked to fill in on a few speaking assignments, I was told I had to remove my simple gold wedding band while in the church and that I could not wear a watch on a chain about my neck.

Now, Hunting, I knew they had these special rules for me, but I did these things anyway. I didn't know they would excommunicate me, but I knew they were likely to retaliate. Are you deliberately doing something you know is socially unacceptable, and you do it anyway?

Religious civil disobedience. Sometimes, it is necessary, but when you do it, no matter how silly or ungodly they are, you have to accept it and move on -- you knew it was coming. That's what civil disobedience in the congregation is about: do what you must but accept the result. Then move on to a place where this silliness doesn't happen.
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I'm working on it. Slowly but surely.

I'm not really discounting Baptists. If I was then I wouldn't be wiling to try a Baptist church. I just know how it generally ends up so I'm not getting my hopes up.

I haven't been told "leave" exactly but when I'm the only one in Bible study that isn't allowed to ask questions I'd say they've pretty much made it obvious. I think they also didn't want me to attend because there was a troubled girl that would only come to services if I did.

I'm not afraid to ask questions and apparently that offends people. I used to get one word responses most of the time without any further explanation until I was told not to ask any more questions for the rest of the class. That was in my youth though. Now I don't have to go to church anymore and I can walk out in the middle and go home. I highly doubt I'll ever find a church I'm comfortable in.
 
Good. Comfort is over-rated. But you can definitely find a place with forum for good questions (though that might not always be in the middle of a bible study :) )
 
DavidG said:
Good. Comfort is over-rated. But you can definitely find a place with forum for good questions (though that might not always be in the middle of a bible study :) )
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If I could actually talk without being attacked then I would probably go, even if we disagreed. I'm afraid it will be like it is on here except with people physically getting in my face, which I don't allow. Church people are a fairly aggressive bunch.
 
Huntingteckel said:
If I could actually talk without being attacked then I would probably go, even if we disagreed. I'm afraid it will be like it is on here except with people physically getting in my face, which I don't allow. Church people are a fairly aggressive bunch.
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We need to learn to listen, too.
 
tezriLi said:
Then find a place that concentrates on teaching, not preaching. I know -- easier written than done. But seriously, where I attend, I hear maybe three sermons a year; they do concentrate on teaching. Finding such a place can be done, or you can just go to their teachings and avoid the sermons. Find a place that concentrates on Bible education, possibly one connected to a school or whose leaders see the people as those who need/require/desire biblical education.

You already know what I wrote above.

Please don't automatically discount those who call themselves "Baptist." My children were in a Baptist school before we left MPLS, and both the school and the church were great. Yes, I admit that when I was excommunicated, I tried several Baptist churches and could not stay, but . . . .

I really think you need to think this out: why have several churches asked you to leave? There has to be a reason: they're not asking everyone to leave; what is the reason you are asked to multiple times?

When I was excommunicated, it was because I told the pastor I would not continue to follow the special rule they had set up for me alone. No one else, that I know of, was asked specifically to abide by the rule; in fact, others were specifically allowed to do it, and I was even told this! But because I was a teacher, a group leader, a soloist, and had been asked to fill in on a few speaking assignments, I was told I had to remove my simple gold wedding band while in the church and that I could not wear a watch on a chain about my neck.

Now, Hunting, I knew they had these special rules for me, but I did these things anyway. I didn't know they would excommunicate me, but I knew they were likely to retaliate. Are you deliberately doing something you know is socially unacceptable, and you do it anyway?

Religious civil disobedience. Sometimes, it is necessary, but when you do it, no matter how silly or ungodly they are, you have to accept it and move on -- you knew it was coming. That's what civil disobedience in the congregation is about: do what you must but accept the result. Then move on to a place where this silliness doesn't happen.
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I am sorry for such a thing to happen to you. Nothing I say will be able to heal your wound, but may I ask you if the church that asked you to leave was an Independent Baptist church or one belonging to the SBC. It would be very, very strange for an SBC church to ask you not to wear your wedding ring etc.

You see, Independent churches operate on their own authority and that always comes down to what the Pastor says. They have to higher authority for direction and or correction when things of this nature come up.

Knowing the SBC stance on family, marriage and sexual activity, I would be absolutely shocked if you were in a SBC church which asked you to do those heinous things.

So then.........IMHO you should be glad that the Holy Spirit moved you out of a non-Biblical church!!!!
 
Huntingteckel said:
Which I do. Why would I ask questions and not listen to the response? That's just stupid.
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I just get the impression that for you it's all about your penchant for asking questions. Being a part of the church is to receive from God what He wants to say, and to go to the word for confirmation.
 
Mercedes Benz E Class said:
I also just marvel at people who barely know God for long, or hear only a couple of words but get to change the world on those few revelations.

I think of people who are new born baby Christians and a month after they are saved go and accomplish enormous tasks, major feats for the Kingdom.

Dear LORD,
What am I doing with alllll the food I have eaten to date in your word? Let do with what you give me, let me do much.

I think about how we have received tons of food in church, but how does that translate into my mission and my purpose, what have I accomplished in my realm. Christ died for a broken world, we are His hands and feet.
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Well said. But may I say that one of the best things a new born again believer can do is study the Scriptures and listen to solid Biblical explanations of the Word of God.

Over the years I have seen a great failure in the church. A person will accept the Lord Jesus as Saviour and of course will be excited for the Lord. Then after about 2 or 3 months of regular attendance in Bible study, that person then wants to be a teacher and the church for some reason or another allows it.

That opens the door or false teaching because that person simple has not had the time to do the study to learn and know all of the ramifications of dividing the Word of God. Yes they have the enthusiasm but not the education/knowledge to teach in such a short time. They will not usually and purposefully teach error, but will happen because of not knowing the correct exergesis of Scriptures so as to make them all fit together like a glove.
 
tezriLi said:
Then find a place that concentrates on teaching, not preaching. I know -- easier written than done. But seriously, where I attend, I hear maybe three sermons a year; they do concentrate on teaching. Finding such a place can be done, or you can just go to their teachings and avoid the sermons. Find a place that concentrates on Bible education, possibly one connected to a school or whose leaders see the people as those who need/require/desire biblical education.

You already know what I wrote above.

Please don't automatically discount those who call themselves "Baptist." My children were in a Baptist school before we left MPLS, and both the school and the church were great. Yes, I admit that when I was excommunicated, I tried several Baptist churches and could not stay, but . . . .

I really think you need to think this out: why have several churches asked you to leave? There has to be a reason: they're not asking everyone to leave; what is the reason you are asked to multiple times?

When I was excommunicated, it was because I told the pastor I would not continue to follow the special rule they had set up for me alone. No one else, that I know of, was asked specifically to abide by the rule; in fact, others were specifically allowed to do it, and I was even told this! But because I was a teacher, a group leader, a soloist, and had been asked to fill in on a few speaking assignments, I was told I had to remove my simple gold wedding band while in the church and that I could not wear a watch on a chain about my neck.

Now, Hunting, I knew they had these special rules for me, but I did these things anyway. I didn't know they would excommunicate me, but I knew they were likely to retaliate. Are you deliberately doing something you know is socially unacceptable, and you do it anyway?

Religious civil disobedience. Sometimes, it is necessary, but when you do it, no matter how silly or ungodly they are, you have to accept it and move on -- you knew it was coming. That's what civil disobedience in the congregation is about: do what you must but accept the result. Then move on to a place where this silliness doesn't happen.
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I believe that a good church is one which has BOTH. Good teaching and good preaching.
Most every church I know of has Bible study or some call it Sunday School. Some still have Sunday evening gatherings.

The Bible study is an opportunity to learn and grow and be equipped to do battle in this world.

The preaching is an opportunity to be lifted up and encouraged to put what you have learned into action in reaching out to the lost people all around us.
Real preaching is not done to make the church "comfortable" but in fact it is done to make it UNCOMFORTABLE. (IMHO)!
 
Euphemia said:
I just get the impression that for you it's all about your penchant for asking questions. Being a part of the church is to receive from God what He wants to say, and to go to the word for confirmation.
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I'd like to defend my friend, Huntingtekel, for a moment. He has sent me a series of questions of out pure curiosity and has expressed how he is trying to better understand his faith and how to better understand it. I have no reason to assume he is being impertinent.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I'd like to defend my friend, Huntingtekel, for a moment. He has sent me a series of questions of out pure curiosity and has expressed how he is trying to better understand his faith and how to better understand it. I have no reason to assume he is being impertinent.
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Neither does anyone here, LS.
 
Huntingteckel said:
I'm working on it. Slowly but surely.

I'm not really discounting Baptists. If I was then I wouldn't be wiling to try a Baptist church. I just know how it generally ends up so I'm not getting my hopes up.

I haven't been told "leave" exactly but when I'm the only one in Bible study that isn't allowed to ask questions I'd say they've pretty much made it obvious. I think they also didn't want me to attend because there was a troubled girl that would only come to services if I did.

I'm not afraid to ask questions and apparently that offends people. I used to get one word responses most of the time without any further explanation until I was told not to ask any more questions for the rest of the class. That was in my youth though. Now I don't have to go to church anymore and I can walk out in the middle and go home. I highly doubt I'll ever find a church I'm comfortable in.
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Hunting, a teacher who will not accept questions is a teacher who doesn't know and is afraid to say "I don't know." Never fear a teacher who doesn't know, but fear the teacher who will:
will not say, "I don't know"
will not submit to studying to learn the answer to your question
makes up answers (oh, there are a lot of these, even in texts!"
will not accept questions -- unless the asker tends to continually try to occupy class time

I am not going to tell where I attend Sabbath services -- far from you I am sure -- but during the Sabbath noon teaching, anyone can ask questions, and the teacher is expected to answer or say, "I don't know; I will find out and get back to you," or "Let's study that after lunch."

A wise teacher is not afraid to say, "I don't know"; a foolish teacher or author makes up a "logical" answer.
 
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