Silk -Until today I thought you are a guy
No idea why I thought so! Now I know.. And my sincere apologies for being judgemental.Have to agree with Kurt.. I am sure the house will divide over this
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Major
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Silk -Until today I thought you are a guy
No idea why I thought so! Now I know.. And my sincere apologies for being judgemental.Have to agree with Kurt.. I am sure the house will divide over this
Silk -Until today I thought you are a guy
Have to agree with Kurt.. I am sure the house will divide over this
Is this something new? Do you have your own secret handshake? God offers salvation thru Christ to every human being, bar none.
MichaelH
Inactive
Silk -Until today I thought you are a guy
Have to agree with Kurt.. I am sure the house will divide over this
If God so loved only half the Word to extend the Salvation through grace by faith in Jesus Christ. Would that not make God unjust?
And if God only selected some to be born again then how would they know if they had been selected? How would they know like Judas whom Jesus called friend at one time are not really designed to later be destroyed by some plan of God?
Nobody is safe at this point and any faith be of non-effect.
That does not make God unjust.. Leaving everyone to eternal damnation would have been perfectly just from God..
I agree, in Christ the offer was made to the world...accept Christ and His finished work or reject Him and be given over to the reprobation of your mind. To as many as receive Him, He gives the right to BECOME the children of God - John 1:12 - John...being born of His Spirit. Not to as many as are the children of God He gives the right to receive Him, thats the cart before the horse.
Whoever upon hearing the gospel of our salvation (an act of prevenient grace for our benefit because He loves us), repents being baptized into the name (look up "The Shem") of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, WILL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit (hence be regenerated or born again) - Acts 2:38 Peter. Not, whoever has received the gift of the Holy Spirit and been regenerated shall repent and be baptized into Christ (cart before horse).
Again in Paul, who ever after hearing the gospel of their salvation trusted in Him...these shall be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...Ephesians 1:13...NOT whoever has been sealed with the Holy Spirit will trust after hearing the gospel (cart before horse)
Revelations says "Behold I stand at the door and knock, WHOEVER opens the door I will come in and dine with them, NOT who ever I already am with shall open the door when I knock (cart before horse)...
Now historically, since this is the doctrine of the church for the first 300+ years, I want to also say that this does not mean man determines his salvation. Salvation is the GIFT OF GOD and entirely in His hand to give it to whosoever He wills. God owes no man anything (because all have sinned) and man cannot earn it by what he does. But God in His sovereign plan requires a man to respond appropriately when the Spirit speaks the word to his heart (either through a preacher or a teacher or through the written word it matters not). As Paul says in Romans 10 -"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
So the question is always asked "would it be unjust of God if He arbitrarily chose some to love and left the rest to eternal damnation?" This is the post-Synod of Dordt reformed Calvinist view. The answer is no, of course it would not be unjust, God can do what He wants, and all have sinned, but this begs the question "Did He predestine arbitrarily and leave the rest?" And the answer is "that is not in the Bible", so why would I believe such a thing (yet for a whole decade I defended it). Paul and Peter both qualify God's predestinating with His foreknowing and this can not be foreknowing whom He would predestined or else they were predestined beFORE they were predestined. Now understand brethren this is not pure Calvinism but post-Dordt reformed theology as real Calvinism predestinates and foreordains the damned to damnation. According to the Institutes (the theology in which I was trained when I first came to Christ) God makes the saved to be saved and the damned to be damned and there is no leaving them to it involved.
"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Institutes, bk 3, ch 21, 5
He is omniscient and of course KNOWS who will receive and who will reject, but that does not equal cause.
In His love
brother Paul
Whoever upon hearing the gospel of our salvation (an act of prevenient grace for our benefit because He loves us), repents being baptized into the name (look up "The Shem") of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, WILL RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Spirit (hence be regenerated or born again) - Acts 2:38 Peter. Not, whoever has received the gift of the Holy Spirit and been regenerated shall repent and be baptized into Christ (cart before horse).
Again in Paul, who ever after hearing the gospel of their salvation trusted in Him...these shall be sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise...Ephesians 1:13...NOT whoever has been sealed with the Holy Spirit will trust after hearing the gospel (cart before horse)
Revelations says "Behold I stand at the door and knock, WHOEVER opens the door I will come in and dine with them, NOT who ever I already am with shall open the door when I knock (cart before horse)...
Now historically, since this is the doctrine of the church for the first 300+ years, I want to also say that this does not mean man determines his salvation. Salvation is the GIFT OF GOD and entirely in His hand to give it to whosoever He wills. God owes no man anything (because all have sinned) and man cannot earn it by what he does. But God in His sovereign plan requires a man to respond appropriately when the Spirit speaks the word to his heart (either through a preacher or a teacher or through the written word it matters not). As Paul says in Romans 10 -"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
So the question is always asked "would it be unjust of God if He arbitrarily chose some to love and left the rest to eternal damnation?" This is the post-Synod of Dordt reformed Calvinist view. The answer is no, of course it would not be unjust, God can do what He wants, and all have sinned, but this begs the question "Did He predestine arbitrarily and leave the rest?" And the answer is "that is not in the Bible", so why would I believe such a thing (yet for a whole decade I defended it). Paul and Peter both qualify God's predestinating with His foreknowing and this can not be foreknowing whom He would predestined or else they were predestined beFORE they were predestined. Now understand brethren this is not pure Calvinism but post-Dordt reformed theology as real Calvinism predestinates and foreordains the damned to damnation. According to the Institutes (the theology in which I was trained when I first came to Christ) God makes the saved to be saved and the damned to be damned and there is no leaving them to it involved.
"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others." Institutes, bk 3, ch 21, 5
He is omniscient and of course KNOWS who will receive and who will reject, but that does not equal cause.
In His love
brother Paul
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MichaelH
Inactive
To offer Salvation to one (Though nobody deserved it) and not another makes God a respecter of persons.
Are you saying God is a respecter of persons.
I have not even gotten into scripture yet. I just am trying to feel for logic here before wasting time.
You misunderstood so far which is concerning me that you might not be able to follow along. We have already determined nobody deserved the Love of God.
That is not what I asked.
So in your understanding of right and wrong. If your Boss Gave 3 people raises that did the same Job as you had the same rank as you and though you did a much better Job. Your boss decided that you don't get a raise but 3 of your coworkers did.
Your saying that is just?
So a cop pulls you and someone else over. The cop says you were doing 56 in a 55. The other guy was doing 62 the cop says. However the cop tells you that he don't feel like writing two tickets and lets the other guy go and gives you the ticket.
You find that just?
I Hope I was able to put it in perspective enough to understand your thinking.
The Word of God tells us NOT to offer a nice dressed man the best seat in the house and shun a bum dressed man and sit him in back. That is a respecter of persons.
And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
(Jas 2:3-5)
So then would it be right to say that the God of your understanding would violate what he told us not to do?
Would that be correct according to your understanding?
Blessings.
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Is it any wonder, that people are going around saying you can accidently lose your salvation by tripping on a curb to Sunday school, or snagging your hose during Sunday services? Initially, I was agreeable if others wanted to tie themselves into knots, trying to be more righteous, more saved but then you have to deal with all the others who get wound right up with their knots, too.
MichaelH
Inactive
I have never committed the sin yet of snagging my hose. God has been faithful and kept me from such a Salvation breaking sin. Thank you Lord.
Some believe they are special in some way. A special human that God just picks to avoid roasting in Hell. It's confusion for they don't even have evidence they were really picked.
Michael.. The point is not being special. What do you say about Pharaoh? Paul clearly states in Romans that we are pots in the hands of Potter.. We don't have a say in what we can become.
I have better assurance of salvation. Because my hope is not in me.. My hope is in the Lord, that he will take me through the end..
Salvation is not works based.. In all the examples you quoted, they deserved something. Grace is unmerited favor.. Something we don't deserve and we don't earn
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I confess! I have
and had to slink out of church (mortifying). (And I'm glad to see your sense of humor). I used made up examples, rather than real ones because I did not want to repeat them. I think we are all special and the way God made us. Of course, I want God to love me more than you or you or you...But He doesn't. You cannot lose God's love any more than you can earn it. It is already yours. And His Love is infinite -it's not a pie -That He gives a piece to you, takes nothing from me.
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MichaelH
Inactive
i say what Paul said.............. God endured with much longsuffering for Pharaoh before judgement and pharaoh was picked to be an example. Pharaoh hardened his heart first, for God said............ I don't believe he can be reasoned with.
Exo 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.
Since God knows the heart, God said he was sure.......... Not that God predestined, or God said i already had it planned.
It also says if your a vessel not fit for use, purge yourself of these things. (2 Ti 2:20-21)
We don't build doctrine on ONE Scripture and ignore the other.................... I hope you do understand that. You won't skate one scripture by me without several counter scriptures I am going to ask an explanation for.
If you wish I can post all the election scriptures people twist and get confused on to save you time. I know all of them and some you don't.
I am waiting on you to answer the question above about being Just. I am hoping that you can see some things as it's not my goal to make anyone look silly.
Both of these cases are just. Three otherwise deserving people received raises. One person got a ticket for breaking the law. I am not entitled to a raise, and I am not entitled to a free pass for breaking the law.
Now, if you're saying that these cases are not fair, I would agree with that. But nowhere in the Bible is God is obligated to be fair.
MichaelH
Inactive
Thank you Kurt, your able to read and respond. I wish everyone did that or could do that.
You also answered wisely. Your not entitled to break the Law and your boss can give a raise to whoever he wants to give it to.
Looking at the talents, the guy that made the most, God gave the extra to him not the guy who made the 2nd most.
However your also right. It would not be fair to not get the raise and the officer let the faster driver go.
So then the question would come down to God being fair or not.
Working my butt off for a promotion at work as with a few other of us. They gave it to some brown nosy girl who we always did her work again and had to watch behind her. However she was buddy, buddy with management.
Me being sure I was getting that promotion was stunned as was everyone else. They could have given it to a rock and it would have done a better job than this girl.
I was ungodly mad........ i jumped out in my old man and walked around a bit.
After settling down I went straight to God. I said Lord how can this be? You know and I know that girl just got that promotion because she sticks her nose up managements butt all day. She don't know her job and she flirts. It's not right Lord she got it because she knows the management team better.
The Lord spoke to me very strongly and said........"Son, It's always been about who you know."
In that split second of time it flashed back to me all the mouthing, all the complaining I did at work not being a very good witness. I did a great job...... but could have done so much better for the Lord.
I believe Kurt that God is no respecter of persons and is fair.
I believe that though that God's idea of Fair is on a whole other level than our understanding of it. But still fair.
what you think?
Michael,
In my opinion, the scenario you described does not demonstrate fairness. It appears to me that God was disciplining you for your complaining and not being a very good witness, which is good. As I'm certain you know, God disciplines us because He loves us (Hebrews 12:6). So in that regard, it appears to me that God favored you in this instance. That's not fair. Why were you favored and not your brown nosed co-worker? God taught you an important lesson about how to better behave in a way that honors God. Your brown nosed co-worker did not receive this lesson - she did not receive this Grace. In fact, she was allowed (more accurately, I would say she was ordained - but that is a slightly different conversation) to continue in her sinful, brown-nosing, flirty ways. God is treating her differently from you. That's not fair.
With that said, I understand that a lot of people have a problem with this because it flies in the face of their view of God. Sometimes I share their discomfort. But at the same time, I have a very high view of God's sovereignty. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.
The real crux that this conversation goes back to is the free will discussion, which I'm not really interested in debating because I doubt I will change your mind, you will not likely change mine, and it will only invite 20 other members into the conversation to dog-pile the godless, Calvinist, heretic. It's not a cop-out because I can't defend my position, indeed I can. It's just I already got that T-shirt and I don't have the time and energy to do it again. If, however, you are genuinely interested in at least understanding what I believe about these things (because based on what I've seen in your writings so far, I believe you have a misrepresented view of Calvinism), then I would be delighted to have this conversation with you, and only you, as long as we keep it respectful and civil. I would also ask you for some patience because I can't turn replies as quickly as you can. If not, that's fine too. I will continue to read your posts because even though I don't agree with everything you say, I find them insightful and quite often I pick up a few things.
Back to your original question, our idea of fairness is where everyone is treated equally, where everyone has a equal chance or equal opportunity. I simply don't observe God being "fair" in my life (and don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining), in history, nor do I see it anywhere in the Bible. In the Bible we see God favoring some, and not favoring others. That's not fair. I agree with you that God's idea of pretty much everything, including fairness, is on a whole other level than our understanding of it. 110%. But for the purposes of my response, I'm answering according to what I believe our understanding of the idea of fairness is.
MichaelH
Inactive
Well, I think we both pretty much know why I did not get my promotion and the others did not. Had I done right everyday before my Father and worked unto him I know by his comment that I would have gotten it. I can't argue with that fairness, I just did not get it until corrected.
As for Calvinism.............. That would be hard to pin point. I see concepts of it even in churches that don't claim they believe. One doctrine I am against is that God knows ahead of time what will happen to us. That would be the Molinism and Arminianism.
God is like someone that just blindly drops spirits into bodies with no plan or forethought then it suddenly occurs to God what will happen.
The two doctrines don't make sense, because when did God receive the foreknowledge? If it was before the womb and God knowing that person would go to hell, then it's no longer foreknowledge. This is why Calvinism makes more sense to me unless God is just some fortune teller. I still do not buy into full Calvinism. We were created for HIS Workmanship that is election, placed in the Body of Christ by his will........ That is election.
However, it may not seem God is fair, but then I have to ask How that would be. We can just say who will accuse the creator and what right do they have to accuse for he makes people the way he decides. However, that does not remove the human emotion of God being fair or not.
one persons child dies early, the Other child next door lived. Is God fair?
Or did God actually have anything to do with it?
I was serving God to the best of my knowledge at the time. I was teaching men in the homeless shelter, I held a job and was a witness to those that would hear.
Was it fair to me my son just contracted T-cell a rare form of cancer suddenly? From the first day I got the diagnoses to day 8, there was nothing to be done. It was that quick and sudden.
Is that fair?
Was it fair I was in Prison and trying to get Jesus across to people yet some that where skinheads and into a occult after warning me about speaking about Jesus decided to put bleach and window cleaner in my coffee which I took a big gulp.
I was just trying to teach on Jesus hoping some would hear.
Is that fair?
One thing about God being fair............... is if we don't mix Faith into the equation then it would appear that God may not be fair. We add Faith into the mix, we find God is not only fair, but faithful.
I know a little of these belief systems but I'm certainly no expert. I know William Lane Craig subscribes to Molinism and that it has to do with God knowing what people would choose given alternate realities or outcomes or something like that. I don't subscribe to this - mostly because I don't believe in alternate realities, not because I don't believe that God couldn't know a person's choice given a set of circumstances. Despite that, I really like William Lane Craig otherwise for his work in apologetics.
Most Christians are Arminians and don’t even know it. I don't subscribe to Arminianism mainly because the Arminian believes that people choose God out of the "free will" that God supposedly grants them. I don't find this to be scriptural because I find that the Bible teaches that man is totally depraved and cannot come to the knowledge of Christ without the supernatural intervention of the Holy Spirit. In other words, I believe very strongly that God chooses us, i.e. election, and then acts to regenerate us which allows us to actually recognize our sin, repent, and believe.
This is where Arminians cry “foul” citing some sort of “fairness” doctrine. Calvinists believe that not all are elect, not all are called. And because you must be predestined, elected, called, and regenerated prior to recognizing your sin, repenting, and believing on Christ, the Arminian cries, “that’s not fair!” The Arminian demands that in order for God to be “just,” He must provide everyone an equal opportunity to “accept Him.” In other words, God must be “fair,” which, in my opinion, is the biggest stumbling block to people recognizing the full truth of God’s grace. Indeed, God is and must be just. However, I don’t find that in order for God to be just He must also be fair.
In fact, God is not fair – at least as we understand the sense of the word - and I personally don't see a problem with that. Not everyone is given “equal opportunity.” God chooses some, and He doesn’t choose others. It’s not because some are more righteous than others. It’s not because God looks into the future and “discovers” which people will choose Him and then retroactively elects them. We don’t know why God chooses who He does other than the fact that the Bible tells us God loves the ones He chooses. Why does he love some and not others? The Bible doesn’t tell us. And Arminians don’t like it because, after all, they believe “everything must be fair.”
Well, I do believe in God’s foreknowledge. For whom God foreknew, he also predestined. “Foreknowledge" and “Predestination” are Bible words. I can’t explain foreknowledge, but I affirm it because the Bible teaches it.
No, it’s not fair, and yes, God had everything to do with it. God wrote every day of your life when as yet there were none. He wrote in cancer. He wrote in being passed over for promotion. He wrote in prison. He wrote in your greatest accomplishments and greatest failures. God is sovereign and in total control of every speck of dust in the universe. Everything is proceeding perfectly according to God’s sovereign plan. God foreknew you, he elected you, predestined you to be conformed to the image of His Son. At some point during your life He called you, He regenerated your heart and made you spiritually alive so you could recognize your sin, repent, and believe. He is 100% responsible for everything that happens, including your own salvation. You did not choose him. He chose you. Is that fair? Not if you're an unbeliever it's not! Yet this is what the Bible teaches.
Is it completely horrific that a child dies? Absolutely. Is it fair? No! It sucks! But fairness is irrelevant. God promises us that all things work out for good for those called according to His purpose. We don’t know the second and third order effects of this child’s death. God may use this as the catalyst that brings someone to a knowledge of Christ. How can something so horrific work out for good? That’s up to the imagination of God… and He is exceedingly good at it.
Actually, I would submit to you that the reason you did not get the promotion was because God ordained you not to get it. Again, your life was written in His book before you had logged any days on Earth. This promotion passover is part of His sovereign plan for your own sanctification. There is no regret of “well had I done it this way things would have been different.” There are no alternate realities. There is the Book of your life that God wrote before you were conceived. You are currently executing that book and right now the pages have you being disciplined and sanctified by His Holy Hand.
Last year I suffered an extreme disappointment myself. I am an Army officer, and my file had gone before a Department of the Army centralized selection board that selects future battalion commanders. Everyone was telling me that my file was strong and that they would be shocked if I wasn’t selected, blah, blah, blah and I believed the hype. When the list was finally published, I discovered that I did not make the Principal list. I was completely devastated. But I have to tell you, after about 30 seconds of recovering from the shock of the disappointment, I found great comfort in my knowledge of the sovereignty of God. There was no “had I only taken this other assignment” or “had I only performed better during that one rating period.” My only thoughts were, “clearly this isn’t what God wants me to be.” Ultimately, God makes selections on who will be battalion commanders and who won’t be. It has nothing to do with selection boards, bosses, flirty brown-nosing women, or any of that. All these things are just tools and conditions that God uses to execute His sovereign Will.
God is indeed faithful. We definitely agree on that.