Eternal Security

[MichaelH]

Is "Predestination" a doctrine.

YES, IMHO it is. It is as I said one of the most difficult to grasp and understand and I say that because that is exactly how I felt.

Ephesians 1:5.....
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good measure of his will".

We may not understand it or believe or even like it.....but there it is right in front of us, that word PREDESTINATED.

Predestinated= "to mark off or choose before". That can only mean that God chooses those who He knows will participate in His plan of salvation and extends it to all who respond in faith.

The doctrine of predestination is Scripture relates to and refers to the foreknowledge of God.

Romans 8:29 says........
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Galatians 4:5...............
"to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

The purpose of His predestination was that we should experience Sonship. This divine appointment is according to the kindness of God to accomplish the good pleasure of His will. It is all from Him and has nothing to do with us, and is rooted in love and manifested through grace.

Now let me ask you a reality question Mike. Would you really want a God who DID NOT KNOW what was going to happen in the future???

Thank you for the non Prideful and kind response. Romans if you read from the top is Talking is speaking to Israel whom God hath chosen and planed, predestined to be conformed to His son. We find later though that they grafted themselves out of the vine and can be grafted back in.

Eph is speaking to the Body of Christ about predestination.

Ephesians 1:5.....
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good measure of his will".

The big question now is............ Who is Paul speaking to? It's clear there is some predestination, plan in effect. It's easy for me and you to say He is speaking about us, because we accept Jesus as Lord and do what he says do.

This is the fatal flaw in predestination, because Joe next door is not saved, but when Joe finally gets some sense in his head and believes the Word, then Joe gets saved.

Now Joe can also say he is predestined also with the rest of us.

So, Jesus ordained before the foundation of the World to be sent in the last days to speak the Word whom hath reconciled the Whole World back to God for whosoever shall believe.
The son was planned to be revealed even if Adam had not sinned. God's son has always been in the plan. As God gave all things to the son by whom he made all things and we are joint heirs with the son.

So, the predestined plan was to reconcile the World for those that believe having adopted us back in.

The whole plan has always revolved Around Jesus and whosoever believes shall be saved. Had Adam not blown it, the plan was still Jesus with us in charge.

Now let me ask you a reality question Mike. Would you really want a God who DID NOT KNOW what was going to happen in the future???

Examine your Father in Heaven Major. How does he operate?
We know exactly what is going to happen in the Future. God has already said.

If people knew how God operated, they would stay far from sin. There is this concept that we sin and repent then be forgiven and we are just some poor sinners saved by grace.

NO, we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and should have no more sin conscience and though sin can be forgiven, being forgiven does not mean God advances you or you have full grace and power in your life.

God told me part of this years ago. I did not have enough foundation to understand the rest and still learning how this works.

Each person is created with a purpose and plan. He puts the spirit in man and he knows us in the womb being fearfully and wonderfully made.

That plan is set in stone, and the gifts and callings are without repentance. Paul spoke of running the race, The path of righteousness, David saying you know my ways behind and in front.

The condition is on his Path.
Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Pro 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

Isa 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.

The Word speaks of many places about God's path, God's way, the path of the Just, the race set before us.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

You see that? The path, the race, The plan, the calling is set before us. Those that will qualify is those that will run it.

Our path and race is already made and predestined and planed. Before we even took our first breath of air, God had a predestination for us.

It's our responsibility to find the plan and get to running.

How does God know us?

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
(Luk 13:6-8)

Jesus did not say I already know if the tree will make it. He did not say I have predestined the tree to fail or make it. He said give the tree what it needs to make it and if the tree does not take that opportunity then chop it down.

It's whosoever is faithful in a little that gets more. It's not who is predestined to get more or who God foreknows to get more.

God's Foreknowledge:

Sodom:
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

How does God know? He hears the cry from above and it sounds bad, however how does God find out if the cry matches what is going on? He has to go down and look and God said himself after he looks, he will know.

I did not write that, the Father is telling us how he operates though.

Abraham:
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

How does the Lord know Abraham will command his household with him in mind. Because the Lord knows Abraham personally by His past actions. This is a relationship, not a foreknowledge and not a predestination.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

How does God know Abraham fears the Lord? How does God know there is nothing Abraham will withhold from him? It's not predestination and it's not foreknowledge. God knew when Abraham was willing to give up Issac.

Man messes up God's plan:

Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
(1Sa 15:10-11)

Repent here means to console oneself. It's not like we think of repenting for wrong. It's more of a sigh, or sorrow that things just did not work out. It was God's plan to make Saul King. Saul turned his back on God and stopped following Him. Not predestination not foreknowledge. God really feels bad for King Saul because God knows what must happen.

Eli:
1Sa 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Eli would not correct his sons or be faithful running the things of God. God's plan was that Eli's house walk before him forever, but Eli changed the plan by his actions.

This is not predestination, or foreknowledge.

==================
Major:
I can go on and fill a couple more pages.
We never take a few scriptures and ignore 30 others because we want to believe something about God or His Word. Every scripture fits and zero contradict.

Scriptures speak for themselves. What God knows is our heart for he knows all things about our heart. This is why He told Moses...... "I AM SURE" it will take a heavy hand to bring Israel out concerning Pharaoh.
It was not predestination, it was not future foreknowledge but God knew Pharaoh and was pretty sure Pharaoh was not going to play along.

God says...... I know the thought I think about you, thoughts of Peace and not evil. (Jer 29:11)

If God is love and pure, then every man gets a plan and God only thinks the best of every man. God knows man by his Actions and I gave examples of Jesus saying that and Examples of God dealing with man.

If your not convinced I can give a whole lot more examples.

Since God knows us by our actions then disobedience and breaking our Word to him is more serious than just repenting and being forgiven. You can be forgiven, but that does not mean your trusted.

 

[Major]

Thank you for the non Prideful and kind response. Romans if you read from the top is Talking is speaking to Israel whom God hath chosen and planed, predestined to be conformed to His son. We find later though that they grafted themselves out of the vine and can be grafted back in.
Eph is speaking to the Body of Christ about predestination.



The big question now is............ Who is Paul speaking to? It's clear there is some predestination, plan in effect. It's easy for me and you to say He is speaking about us, because we accept Jesus as Lord and do what he says do.

This is the fatal flaw in predestination, because Joe next door is not saved, but when Joe finally gets some sense in his head and believes the Word, then Joe gets saved.

Now Joe can also say he is predestined also with the rest of us.

So, Jesus ordained before the foundation of the World to be sent in the last days to speak the Word whom hath reconciled the Whole World back to God for whosoever shall believe.
The son was planned to be revealed even if Adam had not sinned. God's son has always been in the plan. As God gave all things to the son by whom he made all things and we are joint heirs with the son.

So, the predestined plan was to reconcile the World for those that believe having adopted us back in.

The whole plan has always revolved Around Jesus and whosoever believes shall be saved. Had Adam not blown it, the plan was still Jesus with us in charge.



Examine your Father in Heaven Major. How does he operate?
We know exactly what is going to happen in the Future. God has already said.

If people knew how God operated, they would stay far from sin. There is this concept that we sin and repent then be forgiven and we are just some poor sinners saved by grace.

NO, we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and should have no more sin conscience and though sin can be forgiven, being forgiven does not mean God advances you or you have full grace and power in your life.

God told me part of this years ago. I did not have enough foundation to understand the rest and still learning how this works.

Each person is created with a purpose and plan. He puts the spirit in man and he knows us in the womb being fearfully and wonderfully made.

That plan is set in stone, and the gifts and callings are without repentance. Paul spoke of running the race, The path of righteousness, David saying you know my ways behind and in front.
The condition is on his Path.
Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Pro 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
Isa 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.

The Word speaks of many places about God's path, God's way, the path of the Just, the race set before us.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

You see that? The path, the race, The plan, the calling is set before us. Those that will qualify is those that will run it.

Our path and race is already made and predestined and planed. Before we even took our first breath of air, God had a predestination for us.

It's our responsibility to find the plan and get to running.
How does God know us?

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
(Luk 13:6-8)

Jesus did not say I already know if the tree will make it. He did not say I have predestined the tree to fail or make it. He said give the tree what it needs to make it and if the tree does not take that opportunity then chop it down.

It's whosoever is faithful in a little that gets more. It's not who is predestined to get more or who God foreknows to get more.
God's Foreknowledge:

Sodom:
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

How does God know? He hears the cry from above and it sounds bad, however how does God find out if the cry matches what is going on? He has to go down and look and God said himself after he looks, he will know.

I did not write that, the Father is telling us how he operates though.
Abraham:
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

How does the Lord know Abraham will command his household with him in mind. Because the Lord knows Abraham personally by His past actions. This is a relationship, not a foreknowledge and not a predestination.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

How does God know Abraham fears the Lord? How does God know there is nothing Abraham will withhold from him? It's not predestination and it's not foreknowledge. God knew when Abraham was willing to give up Issac.
Man messes up God's plan:

Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
(1Sa 15:10-11)

Repent here means to console oneself. It's not like we think of repenting for wrong. It's more of a sigh, or sorrow that things just did not work out. It was God's plan to make Saul King. Saul turned his back on God and stopped following Him. Not predestination not foreknowledge. God really feels bad for King Saul because God knows what must happen.

Eli:
1Sa 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Eli would not correct his sons or be faithful running the things of God. God's plan was that Eli's house walk before him forever, but Eli changed the plan by his actions.
This is not predestination, or foreknowledge.

==================
Major:
I can go on and fill a couple more pages.
We never take a few scriptures and ignore 30 others because we want to believe something about God or His Word. Every scripture fits and zero contradict.

Scriptures speak for themselves. What God knows is our heart for he knows all things about our heart. This is why He told Moses...... "I AM SURE" it will take a heavy hand to bring Israel out concerning Pharaoh.
It was not predestination, it was not future foreknowledge but God knew Pharaoh and was pretty sure Pharaoh was not going to play along.

God says...... I know the thought I think about you, thoughts of Peace and not evil. (Jer 29:11)

If God is love and pure, then every man gets a plan and God only thinks the best of every man. God knows man by his Actions and I gave examples of Jesus saying that and Examples of God dealing with man.

If your not convinced I can give a whole lot more examples.
Since God knows us by our actions then disobedience and breaking our Word to him is more serious than just repenting and being forgiven. You can be forgiven, but that does not mean your trusted.

All good stuff Mike. I see that you have worked hard on this. I agree that we take the whole Bible Scriptures into consideration on ALL Bible doctrines. I will list several at the end of this post to be considered. They are where my understanding comes from on Election.

It seems to me that there are THREE lines of belief when it comes to Election/Foreknowledge of God. See if you agree with these.

1. God simply does not know the future; he makes educated guesses.
This view teaches that God simply does not have omniscience. God has to grow and develop. God, according to this view, is limited and he has to make educated guesses based upon probability. In this view the elect are those whom choose God. God discovers this only when the person actually believes.
2. God knows because he has to learn who chooses him.
This view says that election is based upon God's omniscient foreknowledge of learning or looking to see who will choose Christ. God in this version has a unque ability to see into the future from the vantage point of eternity. Those whom God foresees accepting Jesus Christ are then elected. In this model God has knowledge of who will choose but not from all eternity. God has to learn or look into the particular history of a person to see what man will do before he, God, determines what he will do in regard to election.

3. God knows because he has eternally determined his own knowledge of history.
This view says that God does not have to look or learn the future events of history from eternity. God has known all things eternally by thinking up history in his own mind. Those whom God foreknows are those whom he has eternally thought up in his mind as his eternal children. These are the elect ones. People elect to love God because God elected to first love them in his own mind in eternity.

Do you agree that only one of the three options presents the real God of the Bible. If God is truly eternal and all knowing, and if he is all knowing without having to learn anything, then only option number three represents the true God of the Bible. Now that is just me. You may have a different thought.

So then, if we believe that God is fully omniscient, meaning that he does not have to look or learn anything whatsoever, then the only option left it seems is number three. God knows his children because he has eternally thought of them in this light. In other words, God thought up a certain portion of humanity as his own from eternity, not because he had to learn who would or would not choose him, but because he decided to think (determinately foreknow) his own.

I do not know if this helps anyone. It seems that God's elected/predestined children are elect in accordance to what he thought up in his own mind. God, before the foundation of the world, determined by his own mind, his own cognitive processes to think up in his mind a certain group of people who would be called and adopted into his family. God eternally thought of them as his elect, his children, his predestined people.

What about the Scriptures. As I agreed, they are the very basis for ant thought on the question.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14 ESV).

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt. 24:22 ESV).

"And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)?

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB).

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV).

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29-30 HCSB).

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" (Rom. 9:11 ESV).

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5 NKJV).

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).

 

[MichaelH]

Good stuff Major. I gave you plain scriptures that are complete opposite to what we think God is and who He is. I have lots more of course.

The scriptures I gave must be perfectly in line with ALL you presented.

I clearly showed, God has no predestination or foreknowledge about A man.
I Showed how God knows a man and why it's important to obey God. He knows us by the little we have been given and been faithful with. Jesus said these things also.

. It seems that God's elected/predestined children are elect in accordance to what he thought up in his own mind. God, before the foundation of the world, determined by his own mind, his own cognitive processes to think up in his mind a certain group of people who would be called and adopted into his family. God eternally thought of them as his elect, his children, his predestined people.

We would need something to say so that was not fully connected to the Other. There are only 3 places that talk about Before the Earth was made. The scripture in Eph is the only one that may suggest to some pre picking before the foundation of the World.



I am scripture only Brother. I don't use terms such as God is outside of time and God knows everything about your future.
I don't even use God is Sovereign because no Hebrew or Greek word conveys the English Definition of it.

I do my best to stay far away from religion, not that I don't have religious junk in me, for who can say they escaped it but I stay teachable.

Romans is specifically speaking about Israel. The were chosen through the Promise God made to Abraham, the elect. We have to separate them from the Church because the same term Elect is used for both.

God is not a respecter of persons. There is zero scriptures that God planned anyone to fail. I would need at least two witness that say God designed any man to be placed so they can fail.

The closest I get is Judas. He is the only close one. (though I can make a case for what happened) We know Pharaoh God moved by knowing Pharaoh. He said I am sure....... it will take a heavy hand on Pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his heart, and by signs instead of bowing to God, Pharaoh instead tried to get his wizards to reproduce them and not humbling himself. As if Pharaoh was going to best God. Paul said God has much longsuffering with Pharaoh before putting the hammer down. We tend to skip that part when talking about predestination.

Your Scriptures:

Elect means chosen, picked.

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matt 22:14 ESV).

Read above this passage.

Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
(Mat 22:8-10)
The ones originally called had other things to do, and treated the calling lightly.

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

These passages of scriptures alone tell us its possible for God to pick you (elect) but just because you have the call does not make you worthy to be chosen. Some did not respond, some did evil, some did not come prepared. The election was there though as they were originally suppose to come.

So we know God has a election but it's based on what he knows about you (As I gave lots of evidence) and it's based on us following the plan of the election.

"And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" (Matt 24:22 ESV).

This is about the end and it would take lots of debate to decided if these were those that made it through tribulation or the church is still here. In any case, Jesus said this about the end.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(Rev 22:12)

"And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night" (Luke 18:7 NIV)?

Once again, elect would mean those that are his. God would hear you or I, is his ear turned also for the one who denied him?

"I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen" (John 13:18a NASB).

Was Judas really a devil? Acts says he went to his "OWN" place. This might be misunderstood or a special case but the devil had to have gained entrance to Judas through his greed then Judas used to fulfill scripture. Hard to build a concrete doctrine on this one.

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit" (John 15:16a NKJV).

"this man [Christ Jesus] delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23a NASB).

All of us have a call if we make Jesus Lord. Each is a body part and God's son was written in scriptures that He was stricken of God and smitten.
Remember Jesus said....... Father all things are possible to you, if it be thy will take this cup from me? nevertheless, not my will be done but your will.

Jesus knew what was written eternally and unchangeable. He was in the scriptures and scriptures can not be broken. This is why for the first time Jesus said......... All things are possible.

If God granted his request then God would have to change time and what was already eternally determined. The Word would have to always be true. That means events that gave the Word concerning Jesus would not have happened. I believe Jesus knew His Father could do this and his greatest prayer of faith. The Word never changes and he was asking his Father to change it and take him out of it.

Jesus was not confused by God's will though, He was obedient unto Death.

"For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified" (Rom 8:29-30 HCSB).

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call" (Rom 9:11 ESV).

It was Israel Jesus was sent to and it was them that were elected to be conformed to the Image of The son. The plan was for them but they rejected the elected plan and it's open for us the gentiles.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:1-2a NASB).

We are created in His workmanship.
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

God picked the 12 for Jesus through his foreknowledge of them. Now everyone is placed according to the will and foreknowledge of God as he has equipped each one of us with the ability he put in us. This is not before the foundation of the World. Remember he does call many who He has placed ability in. But as Jesus said, many are called but few are chosen.

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:4-5 NKJV).

This is the best predestination scripture you can have. However if you look at the other scriptures Jesus has always been the Plan, the Son of God. Everything God did and create was for and through the Lord Jesus His son.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The World not just those saved or chosen is suppose to recognize the son. The Scripture does not say God choose some to be destroyed.

That is the missing scripture........... The one where God picked some to not make it. Every knew bows at the name of Jesus, not just believers.

I have shown:
God deals with each man according to his knowledge of the man.

God's whole plane was to introduce the Son before the Earth was made. No scripture says Jesus was predetermined to die for us. That was our fault. Peter says Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the World. It did not say the original plan was for Jesus to have to go to the cross.

God has no foreknowledge of mans actions unless man stays on the predetermined path God set. In other words off the path and plan of God you go through things God never intended or planned. I can show many scriptures where man went off the path and bad things happen. David for example should have been out fighting with his men, not at home looking out the window seeing Bathsheeba. David was not where He was suppose to be.

God does not predestine man to fail. No scripture saying this and the major missing scripture to any election doctrine. All scriptures show Gods reaction to man by mans actions. Not through foreknowledge or predestination.

God does not deal with man according to predestination or foreknowledge........... we need something called scripture and not a ton of counter scriptures.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not

We are created in God's image and not much different than He is. He is not like us, we are like him. Even if God said I would and I won't turn from it we see that God will change if man changes first. God can be reasoned with and if there was some predestination or foreknowledge then God could not be reasoned with at all.

Sorry so Long, but your right I have studied this a long time and understanding more about Who God is and How he thinks. It's all in the Word with example, after example and religion covers it up and blinds us to what is actually written. I just want to believe what God said no matter what that is. If it was election or Foreknowledge I would believe that, but it's just not there by so many examples.

 

[Silk]

Good post, MichaelH. There are some things that trouble me here but all and all, I agree that God leaves room for all to come back to him. Perhaps, predestination is just the wrong word to use for understanding. I think that God, who knows the flight of the sparrow, and how many leaves that oak has, but He leaves the space for us to return to Him, all of us. That is the ultimate plan.

 

[MichaelH]

Good post, MichaelH. There are some things that trouble me here but all and all, I agree that God leaves room for all to come back to him. Perhaps, predestination is just the wrong word to use for understanding. I think that God, who knows the flight of the sparrow, and how many leaves that oak has, but He leaves the space for us to return to Him, all of us. That is the ultimate plan.

It would be good to post your concerns. All of us have been painted a picture of who God is, myself included. In fact I would not have looked up all those scriptures I posted if was not for something God said to me years back.

One thing we have to be careful of is adding to scriptures.

God declares the End from the beginning. God has, everything in Revelation will come to pass despite what we do. It will end just like He said it would.

It does not mean God plans every single persons life, or even knows what every person will choose.

how many scriptures are we told to chose, have faith in, and if we do this, that will happen.

How can God be sovereign then?First man came up with that Word for God, it's not mentioned in the Word or has any Hebrew or Greek equal.
However we see the Sovereignty of God because God spoke the Word and the Word is right for every situation knowing before and after what every situation man can find himself in.
God never intended to control man. In fact God came close to washing his hands of us at the time of Noah. It's not like God needs us to survive or anything.God made man to fellowship with and be a Father. There is nothing else we can do for God but trust him and honor him, what else can we give?

God's Knowledge:If God had foreknowledge of our actions then god would never have changed him mind after someone repented. We see more a real Father than a alien God here. If God predestined everything then there would be no reason to mention faith in the bible. For my faith could not change God's predestination.

God has knowledge of all things and how all things work down to it's basic chemical makeup. Though we see a couple times in scripture he said he has to go down and look, the idea is that at any given moment if God wanted could give us the exact number of grains of sand on the planet. The number of Hairs on our head.

This vast knowledge and wisdom gives God great insight far ahead, past what we can see. God also knows the heart and true intentions. This is why He said, I am Sure Pharaoh won't get in line without force.

But if anything trouble you then we can address it. I do my best to back everything with scriptures and more than one scripture.

 

[Major]

It would be good to post your concerns. All of us have been painted a picture of who God is, myself included. In fact I would not have looked up all those scriptures I posted if was not for something God said to me years back.

One thing we have to be careful of is adding to scriptures.

God declares the End from the beginning. God has, everything in Revelation will come to pass despite what we do. It will end just like He said it would.

It does not mean God plans every single persons life, or even knows what every person will choose.

how many scriptures are we told to chose, have faith in, and if we do this, that will happen.

How can God be sovereign then?First man came up with that Word for God, it's not mentioned in the Word or has any Hebrew or Greek equal.
However we see the Sovereignty of God because God spoke the Word and the Word is right for every situation knowing before and after what every situation man can find himself in.
God never intended to control man. In fact God came close to washing his hands of us at the time of Noah. It's not like God needs us to survive or anything.God made man to fellowship with and be a Father. There is nothing else we can do for God but trust him and honor him, what else can we give?

God's Knowledge:If God had foreknowledge of our actions then god would never have changed him mind after someone repented. We see more a real Father than a alien God here. If God predestined everything then there would be no reason to mention faith in the bible. For my faith could not change God's predestination.

God has knowledge of all things and how all things work down to it's basic chemical makeup. Though we see a couple times in scripture he said he has to go down and look, the idea is that at any given moment if God wanted could give us the exact number of grains of sand on the planet. The number of Hairs on our head.

This vast knowledge and wisdom gives God great insight far ahead, past what we can see. God also knows the heart and true intentions. This is why He said, I am Sure Pharaoh won't get in line without force.
But if anything trouble you then we can address it. I do my best to back everything with scriptures and more than one scripture.

Mike, we could go back and forth with Scriptures like musical chairs and I just like you am a Bible person and not a religionist.

IF there was only ONE verse in the Bible that declared Predestination, then ONE would be enough for me. That is because "ALL Scripture is God breathed".

Instead of trying to refute your understanding of Bible verses, I would rather just give my understanding of them in a way that does not be competitive to yours.

Ephesians 1:3-5.....
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will".

Romans 8:29
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

John 1:12
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

1 Peter 1:2
"according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:May grace and peace be multiplied to you."

When I consider the Scriptures I am totally convinced that God has arranged everything according to His good pleasure. We are here because wanted us to be hear.

The Scriptures say that God CHOOSE us. WHEN did He do that. Again, the Scriptures tell us......"Before the foundation of the world". That tells me that God has a plan and I am in it and nothing can prevent the plan of God from running its course.

Because God is soverign, omniscient, and omnipresent, He knew in the beginning that I would be saved. He knew that I would be part of His plan. But the foreknowledge of God had nothing to do with my own free will. God did not force me to believe on Christ. I willingly accepted Christ Jesus.

Now WHY did God choose me? Did He choose us just to save us or was there something far greater?
The Scriptures say to us...".......That we should be holy and without blame in His presence".
So then, Predestination is simply the bringing to pass of things determined by God in the eternity past. Every believer is predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son of God. THAT IS THE PLAN.

Conformation then occurs as we walk in the Spirit, feed upon the milk and the meat of the Word of God.

 

[MichaelH]

Mike, we could go back and forth with Scriptures like musical chairs and I just like you am a Bible person and not a religionist.

IF there was only ONE verse in the Bible that declared Predestination, then ONE would be enough for me. That is because "ALL Scripture is God breathed".

I already explained it Major. Romans is about Israel whom he foreknew and had a plan that they be conformed to the image of his son.
Eph is the only one scripture that even suggest what your suggesting. The who key term though is in Christ the anointed. That was the predestined plan, that we all be in Christ the anointed one. So He choose US, the World to be conformed to His Son. There is no scripture saying He only choose a few, you have to add that in there.

Also as the Scripture says............... and you put above. All that believe. That is our part as all people God created are suppose to serve and worship the Son. That was the plan from the foundation of the World, to introduce us to the Son of God.

Also, I gave you many scriptures that say different. Peter warns to take no scripture for private interpretation. The Holy Spirit reveals to us the Word comparing spiritual with Spiritual. YOU NEED MORE THAN ONE SCRIPTURE!!!!

I gave plenty of evidence and I also explained your scriptures that line up with all the other scriptures. To believe One scripture one way then you have to say you don't believe the others.

Most false doctrines do just that. Take a few, ignore the rest.

My stance is the Word of God never contradicts and we are to compare line upon line. The Word corrects me and if God Himself said he knows man by their actions, not some predestination or foreknowledge. If God ever said YOU choose life or death, I will record that choice, If God said its for those that will believe.

Then ONE Scripture does not invalidate the rest. It means we don't understand that ONE Scripture and need light.

I will believe God by the Written Word, not mans idea of God being outside of time and space and picks and chooses who makes it and who does not. It's man that came up with that idea, 100 plus scriptures say much different.

 

[Silk]

Probably, what troubles me most is the assumption that we can understand all of God's ways or all of the way He operates. I truly "believe" that this is beyond us, here and now. In simple terms, Christ would have no need to have separated from God to come to us, in the way that he did, had there been no original sin (disobedience to God). We chose to know evil, and God has been trying to get us back to our pure state, ever since. While God can handle evil and know how to work it, we do not and never will. The scriptures try to tell us, in many ways, how to accomplish this return. It is very difficult, to me, to remonstrate when I read and say no no no and then see the final conclusion to which I agree. It makes me think that because the conclusion was derived from false ideas, that it makes the conclusion unstable.

For now, let us take the for instance of God hardening Pharoah's heart. What does this really mean? No one seems to think that because the Pharoahs, who thought they were divine, and worshipped false Gods, that their own false beliefs would cause them to make them stand for their own ways, no matter what miracle happened to show otherwise. In essence, they were stuck in their own ways and this caused the hardening. God was saying choose. And like your bleach story, some Eygptians went with Moses, out of Eygpt.

 

[Major]

I already explained it Major. Romans is about Israel whom he foreknew and had a plan that they be conformed to the image of his son.
Eph is the only one scripture that even suggest what your suggesting. The who key term though is in Christ the anointed. That was the predestined plan, that we all be in Christ the anointed one. So He choose US, the World to be conformed to His Son. There is no scripture saying He only choose a few, you have to add that in there.

Also as the Scripture says............... and you put above. All that believe. That is our part as all people God created are suppose to serve and worship the Son. That was the plan from the foundation of the World, to introduce us to the Son of God.

Also, I gave you many scriptures that say different. Peter warns to take no scripture for private interpretation. The Holy Spirit reveals to us the Word comparing spiritual with Spiritual. YOU NEED MORE THAN ONE SCRIPTURE!!!!

I gave plenty of evidence and I also explained your scriptures that line up with all the other scriptures. To believe One scripture one way then you have to say you don't believe the others.

Most false doctrines do just that. Take a few, ignore the rest.

My stance is the Word of God never contradicts and we are to compare line upon line. The Word corrects me and if God Himself said he knows man by their actions, not some predestination or foreknowledge. If God ever said YOU choose life or death, I will record that choice, If God said its for those that will believe.

Then ONE Scripture does not invalidate the rest. It means we don't understand that ONE Scripture and need light.

I will believe God by the Written Word, not mans idea of God being outside of time and space and picks and chooses who makes it and who does not. It's man that came up with that idea, 100 plus scriptures say much different.

Dear Mike. I appreciate your thoughts and the work you have gone to. I agree with you in several things But the truth is.....
and please do not think I am trying to hammer you, I have no desire to argue at all, but I must say to you that Predestination IS an accepted Bible doctrine whether you believe it or not. I like you rely on the Word of God and it clearly teaches us that...............

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29a). Blessing #1.

Now we can not get away from that by saying it does not exist. There it is in the good ole black and white. It is one of the blessings God has predestinated for the believer - that the believer is going to be fashioned, made, transformed, transfigured into the likeness of the image of Jesus Christ. I agree 100% with you on that.

The things we might be suffering at this moment that are happening to you (Rom. 8:28) to make you more like Jesus. And at the rapture, whether we be dead or alive at His coming, we are all going to be changed and be wholly like unto Christ.
Unto the adoption of children by the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Eph. 1:5). There is that word again. Blessing #2.

Again, may I say that predestination is the predetermined blessings for the saved man and has nothing to do with salvation. Now, in the above text, we are told that the Christian is predestined unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. It doesn't say that the sinner was predestinated to become a child of God; no, but rather the saint has been predestinated unto the adoption of children.

If God does not know the future in advance, then it seems to me that the prophetic Word of God does not make any sense to study. But that is just me.

"that which God has predestinated for those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith: "Being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ" (Eph. 1:11, 12). There it is again. That is the 3rd blessing.

You will notice that it is not salvation the Holy Spirit is speaking about, but that which is for those who are saved. So many fail to read the 12th verse; herein is what God has predestinated - that we should be to the praise of His glory; Nowhere do we find predestination for, or not for, salvation.

I wish you well Mike. We will have to stand in disagreement on this. Predestination is the most difficult of all doctrines to grasp. IMHO, if the God of the Bible that I worship, did not know in advance what was down the road for me, He then would not be much of a god at all.
If God does not know the future in advance, then it seems to me that the prophetic Word of God does not make any sense to study. But that is just me.

 

[Ravindran]

For now, let us take the for instance of God hardening Pharoah's heart. What does this really mean? No one seems to think that because the Pharoahs, who thought they were divine, and worshipped false Gods, that their own false beliefs would cause them to make them stand for their own ways, no matter what miracle happened to show otherwise. In essence, they were stuck in their own ways and this caused the hardening. God was saying choose. And like your bleach story, some Eygptians went with Moses, out of Eygpt.

That is a valid point.. Pharoah's every intention was evil.. If I may, that is the case of every unbeliever.. There is the question of freewill tagged along with this.. Yes, man has free will.. The liberty to choose and ability to choose are different.. Man does not have the moral ability to choose good after fall.. That is why God has to regenerate a person's heart when his desires are changed.. He then freely chooses to serve the Lord.. The Lord changes the root of the desires of a person's heart..

 

[Major]

Good post, MichaelH. There are some things that trouble me here but all and all, I agree that God leaves room for all to come back to him. Perhaps, predestination is just the wrong word to use for understanding. I think that God, who knows the flight of the sparrow, and how many leaves that oak has, but He leaves the space for us to return to Him, all of us. That is the ultimate plan.

But Silk.......Predestination is God's Word. He came up with it so it must be a pretty good word.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29).

Foreknowledge means to have knowledge of things to be. Foreknowledge is an attribute of God, while Predestination and Election are acts of God. Only God knows the future. And He does know the future. He wouldn't be God if He didn't, but the fact that He knows who is going to be saved, and who isn't going to be saved, does NOT determine who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost.

Someone may ask, ''If God does know who is and who isn't going to be saved, how, then, can the sinner get out of it?" Foreknowledge, in Scripture, never determines what is to be - foreknowledge is only the knowledge of things to be beforehand. It is the same with our scientists, they can tell when there is to be an eclipse of the sun or of the moon: on a certain day at a certain hour, minute and second; but the scientists do not bring about the eclipse. God has foreknowledge, and by this foreknowledge knows the future, but that is where it ends.

Here is where many of the saints falter in their Christian witnessing. They read something or other in the Word about predestination and then reason that God predestinates some people to be saved, and thus predestinates some people to be lost. That is not the case. To begin with, predestination is never for the lost man, to be saved or to be lost; but rather, predestination is for the saved man. We have only to read our Bibles, and read the context where it is speaking of predestination, to clearly understand that Salvation is, indeed, a personal matter based upon the "whosoever wills."

 

[MichaelH]

I wish you well Mike. We will have to stand in disagreement on this. Predestination is the most difficult of all doctrines to grasp. IMHO, if the God of the Bible that I worship, did not know in advance what was down the road for me, He then would not be much of a god at all.

If God does not know the future in advance, then it seems to me that the prophetic Word of God does not make any sense to study. But that is just me.

Brother, You missed chunks of what I posted. That is troublesome or I just plain did not make things clear enough.

I also gave examples of How God knows what He knows in many places. I could have given lots more but it would be redundant.

Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known. Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
(Psa 77:19-20)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
(what happens if you don't acknowledge him?)

Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
(What does the Lord know if you not on the Path? -hint it's not good.)

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
(Why is God grieved? Because the people did not follow His plan, not because he Forknew to grieve himself or planed they disobey him)

I SAID........ God's plan, His setting in the body is His path. The Path of the Just. Is God's plan, we follow that plan just like Abraham and God knows by our actions and us personally by what we have choosen in that plan. We still get to pick life or death, that is our choice. Our choice to follow the plan of God.

If we follow the set path, then everything God has on that path we run into. Just like Elijah was told to go to the river so the birds would feed him.

What happens if Elijah decides not to go to the river? The birds still going to show up for him? NO, he got off the path and on his own at this point.

Naaman
And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.

Remember Naaman complained and moaned about how He was suppose to be healed? If Naaman had not obeyed it did not change the will of God to heal him, or God's plan for Naaman.

You stay on God's plan, and God will tell you exactly 20 years from now where you will be and what is going to have happened. You get off God's path then it's dark and you stumble into things you don't understand. God can't tell you 20 years where you will be because you did not do what He said do.
I gave plenty of examples of both.

If God does not know the future in advance, then it seems to me that the prophetic Word of God does not make any sense to study. But that is just me.

It's not that God just dropped a bunch of people and stuff on the Earth then sat down and figured out by some fortune telling power what is going to happen. It's prophecy because it's the Spoken Word. What God speaks comes to pass.

God is not a fortune teller.......... He speaks and it happens...... Also God did not give prophecy for each of us but what the Holy Spirit tells us what to do. In that will still come to pass what is written in the Word. Our part will be determined by obedience and staying on the set race before us............. Not all will run the race, Not all came to the marriage banquet though called, not all will obey.

 

[MichaelH]

That is a valid point.. Pharoah's every intention was evil.. If I may, that is the case of every unbeliever.. There is the question of freewill tagged along with this.. Yes, man has free will.. The liberty to choose and ability to choose are different.. Man does not have the moral ability to choose good after fall.. That is why God has to regenerate a person's heart when his desires are changed.. He then freely chooses to serve the Lord.. The Lord changes the root of the desires of a person's heart..

The power to change a heart to accept Jesus is the Spirit...... God's Word is Spirit and life. All men have been given A measure of faith. We can tell men have faith because they die in faith for vain causes. Faith takes actions and faith in wrong things can be deadly.

Everyone has the ability to have faith after hearing the Word to receive what God gave the World his only begotten Son that Whosoever believes shall not perish. Not whosoever God picked.

After your saved then you are still called and placed in the body. You have a predestined path to follow and a part to do. Not many answer that though as many are called but few qualify to be chosen.

 

[Silk]

Apparently, too many people have an idea of the meaning of predestination, and they don't agree. But I would say, from the human view point, that God's plan is not "set in stone" and combines the gift of free will and a sincere turning towards/return to Him. To say He knows people will reject Him, all or some, is to refute that the free will to choose is not ours. One by one, we can all change and choose correctly. It is we who don't know what God knows. He says, over and over, He wants us ALL back. Myself, I don't see how. But I trust in God, that there IS a way.

 

[MichaelH]

Apparently, too many people have an idea of the meaning of predestination, and they don't agree. But I would say, from the human view point, that God's plan is not "set in stone" and combines the gift of free will and a sincere turning towards/return to Him. To say He knows people will reject Him, all or some, is to refute that the free will to choose is not ours. One by one, we can all change and choose correctly. It is we who don't know what God knows. He says, over and over, He wants us ALL back. Myself, I don't see how. But I trust in God, that there IS a way.

If Men follow the plan, the plan and will is solid.

If men don't follow the plan then they get out of God's realm and into the Hand of the enemy.

Predestination was given for the Body of Christ as we all are a body part and have a gift and calling. Everyone created was fearfully and wonderfully made with a plan in mind. Man has to find the plan, do the plan.

Many are called but few choose to obey the plan. That is not God's fault.

Blessings.