Faith as a substance

Major · May 27, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
By saying mouth he means speaking and speaking the word of God must comefrom the heart or it will not produce much

Agree!

Proverbs 4:23
"Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it."

Major · May 27, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
No trust is trust and nothing more. Faith is a Godly belief that comes from within the anointed written word. Faith is as an unseen power just as fear is.

I hear you brother. I would only question your comment that "Faith is an unseen power".

I respect your opinion of that but I have always had a problem with the idea that "Faith is a power".
If that is true then we can be in danger of having Faith in Faith and not faith in God. IMO that is what I see in many church circles.

To me, the turning point is life is when we stop seeking the God that we want and start seeking the God who is.

If we will just thin about it for a moment in the context of the Scriptures I think we can all agree that as important as FAITH is in our lives it's not our faith that delivers us, as if believing something, or having a POWER that anything at all were pleasing to God.
It's the object of our faith - Christ's life, death, and resurrection - that saves us.

Ravindran · May 27, 2015

Glomung said:
Faith is "trust", nothing more, nothing less. The sad thing is that folks with agenda have done their best to butcher the language in the last few decades.
Faith is not a substance, it is not something magical, it is just TRUST.

I see a big difference between trust and faith as per Bible.. They are somewhat similar. Hope is another term and probably conceptually hope is common between trust and faith. The big difference is, trust does not change the outcome of the things hoped for. Faith determines the outcome of things hoped for. And I believe that is what is stressed in the definition of faith in Book of Hebrews

Fish Catcher Jim · May 27, 2015

Major said:
I hear you brother. I would only question your comment that "Faith is an unseen power".

I respect your opinion of that but I have always had a problem with the idea that "Faith is a power".
If that is true then we can be in danger of having Faith in Faith and not faith in God. IMO that is what I see in many church circles.

To me, the turning point is life is when we stop seeking the God that we want and start seeking the God who is.

If we will just thin about it for a moment in the context of the Scriptures I think we can all agree that as important as FAITH is in our lives it's not our faith that delivers us, as if believing something, or having a POWER that anything at all were pleasing to God.
It's the object of our faith - Christ's life, death, and resurrection - that saves us.

Hello Major,
I did to until i realised that fear willmake your heart pount fast and turn your hair white and cause all sorts ofthings and kill you and so if fear can do this then in the same way faith can slow down the heart and keep you in peace and so forth. Just a thought.
Blessings
Jim

Major · May 27, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
Hello Major,
I did to until i realised that fear willmake your heart pount fast and turn your hair white and cause all sorts ofthings and kill you and so if fear can do this then in the same way faith can slow down the heart and keep you in peace and so forth. Just a thought.
Blessings
Jim

I am not sure that it is fear that turns our hair white Jim.

It’s not coincidental that fear is operating so pervasively in our world today. When we’re fearful it is easier to view the world as being against us. We tend to look for things to go wrong and can feel very disempowered when they apparently do so.

I would also say that fear limits us by shutting us off from the opportunity to try new things, meet new people, entertain a new point of view, challenge old beliefs, travel, experience new cultures, discover what makes our heart sing, take risks, and step outside the box.

Just something to think about.

Abdicate · May 27, 2015

Cturtle said:
Just to add if i may.....persuasion is another word for renew the mind....correct?

And Here is what i herd from my pastor today.....speaking (or declaring) the Word of God, creates an image of what God says that we have. Because the Word of God is living and active..... so it's not just positive thinking or believing or confession. As you speak, and feed your spirit with The Word of God then your mind is renewed to the truth of the Word....thus producing faith according to Hebrews 11:1

Thanks @Abdicate for sharing what the Holy Spirit gave you!

It's more than "renew"... the Greek it's actually "renovate" or "complete change for the better." I stand by the word persuade because if you're stuck in one way of thinking (healings are not possible) you first have to change your mind, repent, and to do that is to become persuaded that the information of the word of God is indeed correct. As Paul said, being fully persuaded, Romans 4:21.

Mykuhl · May 27, 2015

Fadingman said:
A few observations on the Hebrews 11:1 definition of faith. Robertson's Word Pictures says:

Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from υφιστημ (υπο, under, ιστημ, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Menegoz) in 3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (. It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).

The Geneva Bible translates the word as 'ground', Julia Smith's translation as 'foundation', and J.N. Darby as 'substantiating'. On this last translation, W. Nee explains hupostasis as the way in which something becomes 'real' in our minds. Faith is like a 6th sense:

"Here is a most fragrant flower. When you put your nose close to it, you can detect its aroma, but if you were without a nose or had a cold, you would not have the smelling ability. You would not know how fragrant the flower is. Fragrance as a substance would be nonexistent to you. Here is a piano. It produces beautiful music. The player is skillful and expressive. But none of these melodious tunes come to a deaf person. To him, music is nonexistent because he lacks the hearing ability. ... As the eye is to seeing, the ear to hearing, and the nose to smelling, so faith is the organ whereby we substantiate everything spiritual into us. Without faith, every spiritual matter is a nonentity to us. This is why the Bible calls faith the substantiation of things hoped for." (The Normal Christian Life)

I tend to prefer this later way of explaining what faith is. It allows us to perceive spiritual realities.

Thank you for this post. It definitely helped me understand.

I agree with you, I like the last description by Watchman Nee the best. I believe it gives the most accurate and complete picture.

CCW95A · May 27, 2015

The women that said, "If but touch the hem of his garment I shall be made whole" . She saw her self touching and being made whole.
The centurion who said, "Just speak the Word and my servant shall be made whole" .He saw Jesus speak ,and his servant being made whole.
"Who so ever shall speak to this mountain to be removed, and shall not doubt in his heart, he shall have what he says". If we do not see the mountain removed, it is not going anywhere.
Faith always needs a "plan" by seeing it done.

Mykuhl · May 28, 2015

I was just thinking about thoughts and how they affect us. In the natural the pattern goes like this: think a thought(s) then these thoughts turn into words or action, those actions turn into habits and finally those habits turn into character which defines a person. So, I think it can be said that our thoughts go into our hearts and then our hearts produce the faith to turn something into reality, then that reality makes us into the people we are as we walk in that reality.

Fish Catcher Jim · May 28, 2015

Mykuhl said:
I was just thinking about thoughts and how they affect us. In the natural the pattern goes like this: think a thought(s) then these thoughts turn into words or action, those actions turn into habits and finally those habits turn into character which defines a person. So, I think it can be said that our thoughts go into our hearts and then our hearts produce the faith to turn something into reality, then that reality makes us into the people we are as we walk in that reality.

Catch this one Mykuhl.........we have 2 sets of ears........ Our outer ear which hears sounds all around us and then there is the inner ear which hears our thoughts and this is why our own words can condemn us or cause problems......Our inner ear takes hold of not only our thoughts but our words and it begins to influence our thinking. Go figure our own words can play on how we think and then always leads to how we act or react........Go figue...lol

Fish Catcher Jim · May 28, 2015

Mykuhl said:
I was just thinking about thoughts and how they affect us. In the natural the pattern goes like this: think a thought(s) then these thoughts turn into words or action, those actions turn into habits and finally those habits turn into character which defines a person. So, I think it can be said that our thoughts go into our hearts and then our hearts produce the faith to turn something into reality, then that reality makes us into the people we are as we walk in that reality.

True but then again what thoughts ? for thoughts can produce faith but not the faith we need to please God or walk from glory to glory in Christ. Now then if they be God thoughts or His word we are thinking as to thoughts then yes they will end up in the heart and produce a Godly faith.

Faith in its self is not always Godly..........

Mykuhl · May 28, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
Catch this one Mykuhl.........we have 2 sets of ears........ Our outer ear which hears sounds all around us and then there is the inner ear which hears our thoughts and this is why our own words can condemn us or cause problems......Our inner ear takes hold of not only our thoughts but our words and it begins to influence our thinking. Go figure our own words can play on how we think and then always leads to how we act or react........Go figue...lol

Yah, it kinda weird cause I was kinda thinking the same thing earlier. It is interesting that we can actually hear our own thoughts but that it is not we our outer ears.

Mykuhl · May 28, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
True but then again what thoughts ? for thoughts can produce faith but not the faith we need to please God or walk from glory to glory in Christ. Now then if they be God thoughts or His word we are thinking as to thoughts then yes they will end up in the heart and produce a Godly faith.

Faith in its self is not always Godly..........

Yes, I was referring to Godly faith producing the promises given by God.

Fish Catcher Jim · May 28, 2015

Mykuhl said:
I was just thinking about thoughts and how they affect us. In the natural the pattern goes like this: think a thought(s) then these thoughts turn into words or action, those actions turn into habits and finally those habits turn into character which defines a person. So, I think it can be said that our thoughts go into our hearts and then our hearts produce the faith to turn something into reality, then that reality makes us into the people we are as we walk in that reality.

To further what I said I want to make this picture seen.

Thoughts.......Words........Power of them.......Faith and twisted faith but stil Faith.

Joe not so cool heard they are laying off people right and left in his company. Joe began to allow this thought into his mind. By the end of the day joe not so cool is now thinking oh I know I am gaoing to be laid off and lose my house and my car.

Joe gets home and heres Mrs not so cool say how was your day honey ? Oh and here it comes. The mouth begins..........Oh cries Joe, they are laying every one off and i know i am next.. omg what are we gonna do baby not so cool ? They are gonna take our home and our car and we will be homeless on the streets....Ohhh why me why does this always happen to us not so cool men ? Oh god why do you let these things happen. Dont you care ?

Well joe keeps on walking the floor speaking this over and over and telling all his friend and family he is going to be laid off and lose his job and so forth. Well a week later Joe not so cool got laid off and and kept on in fear and speaking about his great loss and then there goes his car and then the bank took the house.

His words and thoughts just as you said Mykuhl ended up in his heart and it became twisted faith BUT EVEN TWISTED FAITH IS FAITH.......twisted faith has power just as Godly faith does. His own thoughts and words caused his down fall.
Fear, doubt unbelief all are fuel for this twisted faith which does bring forth results....

If ya have ears........let them hear

Cturtle · May 28, 2015

CCW95A said:
The women that said, "If but touch the hem of his garment I shall be made whole" . She saw her self touching and being made whole.
The centurion who said, "Just speak the Word and my servant shall be made whole" .He saw Jesus speak ,and his servant being made whole.
"Who so ever shall speak to this mountain to be removed, and shall not doubt in his heart, he shall have what he says". If we do not see the mountain removed, it is not going anywhere.
Faith always needs a "plan" by seeing it done.

This brings up a good point. We were originally designed to speak what we see, but it was supposed to be what we see in the spirit and not in the natural. And when one has a vision of say living on a farm.......as they speak that vision that God has given them for the future, then that seed is planted and committed to God....and God causes it to grow. Thus if that person stays in faith and has patience then He will have the vision that God gave Him. Hebrews 6:12 and the example is in vs. 13-19

Fish Catcher Jim · May 28, 2015

Mykuhl said:
Yes, I was referring to Godly faith producing the promises given by God.

Fish Catcher Jim · May 28, 2015

Cturtle said:
This brings up a good point. We were originally designed to speak what we see, but it was supposed to be what we see in the spirit and not in the natural. And when one has a vision of say living on a farm.......as they speak that vision that God has given them for the future, then that seed is planted and committed to God....and God causes it to grow. Thus if that person stays in faith and has patience then He will have the vision that God gave Him. Hebrews 6:12 and the example is in vs. 13-19

The hardest part is keeping their mouth in line with their vission or dream.
Words.........words.........words.............words........

Cturtle · May 28, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
To further what I said I want to make this picture seen.

Thoughts.......Words........Power of them.......Faith and twisted faith but stil Faith.

Joe not so cool heard they are laying off people right and left in his company. Joe began to allow this thought into his mind. By the end of the day joe not so cool is now thinking oh I know I am gaoing to be laid off and lose my house and my car.

Joe gets home and heres Mrs not so cool say how was your day honey ? Oh and here it comes. The mouth begins..........Oh cries Joe, they are laying every one off and i know i am next.. omg what are we gonna do baby not so cool ? They are gonna take our home and our car and we will be homeless on the streets....Ohhh why me why does this always happen to us not so cool men ? Oh god why do you let these things happen. Dont you care ?

Well joe keeps on walking the floor speaking this over and over and telling all his friend and family he is going to be laid off and lose his job and so forth. Well a week later Joe not so cool got laid off and and kept on in fear and speaking about his great loss and then there goes his car and then the bank took the house.

His words and thoughts just as you said Mykuhl ended up in his heart and it became twisted faith BUT EVEN TWISTED FAITH IS FAITH.......twisted faith has power just as Godly faith does. His own thoughts and words caused his down fall.
Fear, doubt unbelief all are fuel for this twisted faith which does bring forth results....

If ya have ears........let them hear

Now lets see the speaking by faith in God's promises answer to this scene.....joe not so cool stays in faith that God is His supplier and provider....and trusts that God will keep him and his family safe and fed in the midst of the famine or what not.

So this is all that he allows to come out of his mouth. And if there is any thought of being laid off then joe not so cool goes directly to the Word of God, to renew his mind to the promises of God and thus he is kept in the shadow of the Almighty safe and sound with an abundance of food on the table, and a roof over his family's head.....that if things were bad for a friend that he worked with who got laid off then he could invite them for a meal of two....or buy them some groceries, or pay his rent for a month. Godly prosperity in action my friend! :ROFLMAO:

JohnP · May 28, 2015

Cturtle said:
Now lets see the speaking by faith in God's promises answer to this scene.....joe not so cool stays in faith that God is His supplier and provider....and trusts that God will keep him and his family safe and fed in the midst of the famine or what not.

So this is all that he allows to come out of his mouth. And if there is any thought of being laid off then joe not so cool goes directly to the Word of God, to renew his mind to the promises of God and thus he is kept in the shadow of the Almighty safe and sound with an abundance of food on the table, and a roof over his family's head.....that if things were bad for a friend that he worked with who got laid off then he could invite them for a meal of two....or buy them some groceries, or pay his rent for a month. Godly prosperity in action my friend!

I can provide a perfect, real time example for this. I think most here know that I had a pretty bad heart attack back in February. I have been out of work since then. Now, my work does have short term disability, but after 60 days it only pays you at 60% of your salary. Now, I am not claiming poverty here, but I do have bills (not to mention, I have a daughter getting married this weekend, and the medical bills incurred from my attack), and losing 40 dollars out of every hundred was concerning me a little. About 6 weeks ago, I finally told God that I was turning my situation over to Him. Health, financial, everything. I told Him that I was completely dependent on Him, had faith in Him, and wasn't going to worry myself over any of it.

Well, about 2 weeks ago, my wifed walked up to me with a massive check that arrived in the mail for us out of the blue from an annuity fund. I mean, I just sat there in disbelief staring at that check thanking God over and over. This Sunday, my son and daughter-in-law showed up at the house unexpectedly (what a surprise!) and after visiting for a while announced the reason they stopped by was to pay back the large amount of money we had loaned them last year. I could only smile at God. I mean, I am just amazed at His goodness and mercy. He was just waiting for me to let go of my worries and have faith in Him. As soon as I did that, He started taking care of me.

God is great! Trust in Him with all of your heart.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight
Proverbs 3:5-6

Mykuhl · May 28, 2015

Fish Catcher Jim said:
To further what I said I want to make this picture seen.

Thoughts.......Words........Power of them.......Faith and twisted faith but stil Faith.

Joe not so cool heard they are laying off people right and left in his company. Joe began to allow this thought into his mind. By the end of the day joe not so cool is now thinking oh I know I am gaoing to be laid off and lose my house and my car.

Joe gets home and heres Mrs not so cool say how was your day honey ? Oh and here it comes. The mouth begins..........Oh cries Joe, they are laying every one off and i know i am next.. omg what are we gonna do baby not so cool ? They are gonna take our home and our car and we will be homeless on the streets....Ohhh why me why does this always happen to us not so cool men ? Oh god why do you let these things happen. Dont you care ?

Well joe keeps on walking the floor speaking this over and over and telling all his friend and family he is going to be laid off and lose his job and so forth. Well a week later Joe not so cool got laid off and and kept on in fear and speaking about his great loss and then there goes his car and then the bank took the house.

His words and thoughts just as you said Mykuhl ended up in his heart and it became twisted faith BUT EVEN TWISTED FAITH IS FAITH.......twisted faith has power just as Godly faith does. His own thoughts and words caused his down fall.
Fear, doubt unbelief all are fuel for this twisted faith which does bring forth results....

If ya have ears........let them hear

So do you think that this works for people that don't believe in Jesus as well? Say,.these people that visualize things and make positive confessions? As, well as those that are always thinking the worst and speaking the same? Do you think this is a universal law then?