First Church?
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
Jesus Christ in the Garden...
That's often the key question when digging into doctrine that divides denomination (try to say that 5 times fast).
I don't think I would classify Messianic Jews as a denomination so much as a people who are fulfilled Jews. I used to ask my dad when I was younger why he is only a convert to Christianity and not a Messianic Jew. You will find some Messianic Jews who are Presbyterian, some who are Catholic, some who are non-denominational, etc. It's a practicing Jew who also lives fulfilled by the Christian faith, but they're not limited to their own denomination. In fact, some don't consider themselves converts, but simply fulfilled Jews.
I don't think I would classify Messianic Jews as a denomination so much as a people who are fulfilled Jews. I used to ask my dad when I was younger why he is only a convert to Christianity and not a Messianic Jew. You will find some Messianic Jews who are Presbyterian, some who are Catholic, some who are non-denominational, etc. It's a practicing Jew who also lives fulfilled by the Christian faith, but they're not limited to their own denomination. In fact, some don't consider themselves converts, but simply fulfilled Jews.
Isn't the first Christian church right there in the Bible? In Acts 2 when the disciples are waiting in Jerusalem like Jesus instructed them, until they are endued with power from the Holy Ghost, and it goes on to say after this event the Lord added to the church daily. So just a few days after Jesus ascends into heaven we see an organized assembly waiting for and experiencing the divine works of God. I would call that the first church.
Now the tricky part would come in, in saying which of today's denominations those people would fit into? Acts 2:42 says "they continued steadfast in the Apostles' Doctrine..." I think the only way to know would be to read through the rest of Acts and the New Testament to see what the Apostles' Doctrine is, and see which modern day church is still continuing under those rules of operation or belief.
Now the tricky part would come in, in saying which of today's denominations those people would fit into? Acts 2:42 says "they continued steadfast in the Apostles' Doctrine..." I think the only way to know would be to read through the rest of Acts and the New Testament to see what the Apostles' Doctrine is, and see which modern day church is still continuing under those rules of operation or belief.
We have to keep in mind that Christ only founded one church, not 2 or more. The scary part is that there are about 41,000 denominations.
That is exactly what I am doing. I'm trying to figure out why the denominations are so different and who is doing stuff the correct way (big issues, not the small stuff). I guess it doesn't really matter who the first church was... it matters who is following God.
Exactly... that is tricky. The Catholic Church claims to be the first church, but so does the Eastern Orthodox church.
Right, and I thought we weren't supposed to have division in the church.
Well yes, there has been broad division ever since (I think) 431 A.D. when the Assyrian Orthodox Church broke away at the Council of Ephesus.
My belief is that the first church is the Catholic Church, but I'm in the minority here for that one. The myth that it was founded by Constantine in the 4th century is exactly that--a myth. Though he did introduce it to Rome as Christianity was not welcome in Rome beforehand.
It's certainly important to review scripture and history when wanting to find out which church was Christ talking about when he founded it.
I'm only expressing what I believe...I'm not trying to begin any debates here.
MichaelH
Inactive
Well yes, there has been broad division ever since (I think) 431 A.D. when the Assyrian Orthodox Church broke away at the Council of Ephesus.
My belief is that the first church is the Catholic Church, but I'm in the minority here for that one. The myth that it was founded by Constantine in the 4th century is exactly that--a myth. Though he did introduce it to Rome as Christianity was not welcome in Rome beforehand.
It's certainly important to review scripture and history when wanting to find out which church was Christ talking about when he founded it.
I'm only expressing what I believe...I'm not trying to begin any debates here.
Constantine used his power to incorporate Christian belief's. The first Church recorded was in Acts. Act's mentioned nothing about Holy Water or praying to Mary so that could not have been the same Church as the Catholic church. We can pinpoint Different churches by their belief's and ceremonies. Now if Mary praying, Holy Water (Good for Vampires) and purgatory were mentioned in Acts then I would have to jump on the bandwagon for Catholic.
MichaelH
Inactive
ON? What the first Church was or the Catholic church being first?
I can cover both.
We categorize denominations by sets of belief's and religious practices. For example in 1914 the doctrine of Oneness came to being defining God not as 3 that make 1 but 1 that manifest in 3. Hence the Apostolic denomination was born. Later they adopted other religious ideas and rules, but the Oneness belief is what caused the separation from other Pentecostals.
So by system we can trace them back.
The Catholic system is no different.
Praying to Mary came about in 1090AD (About over a 1,000 years since John Penned the book of Revelation) something that defines and a major part of the Roman Catholic system. So if Cathloics always been around then praying to Mary had been around and mentioned as it's a Major prayer for the Catholic system. It's never mentioned once in scripture. Beads were later introduced in 1200AD about that.
So there is Zero proof that the Catholic system was even thought of during the first Church in Acts. Catholics who are Christians say there were Christians and hence must have been Catholic's since Acts but that Logic is flawed. I could just as easy say there was Word of Faith Healing first and the Word of Faith church was first since they believe in God's will to heal using that logic.
Churches:
ekklēsia Meaning a gathering or assembly for a meeting either Jewish and later Christian is the closest Word we have to our understanding of what Church is. In Fact the English Word Church means a building of some type, the Greek Word did not denote any building but a meeting of people.
Being a Female noun it also could not denote the type of gathering or the purpose of the gathering. It just means a gathering of people.
So, the first Church would have been defined in the Book of Acts. No denomination is ever mentioned but we are told to be of the same mind and to love one another.
The first Church was in Acts, all other denomination Churches base theirs on that work started, some more loosely than others.
With all due respect, I said I didn't provide my answer with the intention to debate. You are welcome to discuss with me, but not in this thread.
I would like to mention that the Bible does teach that we are to pray for one another as the body of Christ, and this is how Mary is regarded (see Luke 1:42). Certainly no Marian worship though -- that would be an egregious violation of God's commandments to us. Holy water is a sacramental, not dogma. The dogma comes from the Apostolic history of the Church.
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My opinion is that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ. History and scripture provides much evidence of this, but I love reading about the early church fathers. Ignatius of Antioch is one of my favorites. He was discipled under Peter and became the bishop of Antioch.
In his epistle to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote in chapter 8 "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." This was 110 AD.
As a former Protestant, I certainly understand the concern with Catholicism as there are a lot of misconceptions (like that Catholics worship Mary, that they don't care about the Bible, that they practice idolatry, that they practice traditions of man, etc), but thankfully, these things aren't true. It is one's responsibility to unbiasedly search for what the Church really believes and practices before they can validly reject it.
However, the Catholic Church also believes Protestants are still our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thank you for your response. I agree with your way of thinking... that surely some of the Catholic traditions would have been mentioned somewhere in the Bible. If they came about that much later, couldn't someone have just made it up or "borrowed it" from another religious group? I don't mean that to be offensive, but certain things seem contrary to the Bible and that is where my problem lies.
It depends on what he means.
There are Traditions (capital T) and traditions (little t). The Traditions would be something like the belief in salvation by grace (Ephesians 2:8), the divine trinity (Matthew 28:19), baptism (Acts 2:38), the Eucharist (John 6:53), confession (John 20:21-23), etc. Little t traditions would be things like the rosary, genuflecting, etc.
Ironically, Sola Scriptura is not only something that came later, but contradicts the scriptures.
I'm not trying to step on MichaelH's toes, but this is my position.
Again, I'm only providing my answer. I'm not trying to push any buttons or start any arguments.
MichaelH
Inactive
No, I do not think you are trying to start any arguments and I thank you for your replies.
So, the rosary and praying to Mary... if those came later, where did they come from?
That would be about 1200AD With Beads............. The traditional prayer to just Mary dated back a bit further about 1,000 years after John Wrote Rev. These are rough guesses.
Many (Non-Catholics) Think it came much later and gradually but I think it was much sooner and Saint Domic was responsible for the Beads.
I understand I am not taking offense here, Nor do I dislike Catholics or consider them not saved. We all have our issues.
The Trinity concept was not adopted by Rome until much later (Like 1,000 years later) and Rome rejected the first idea's of it being because of the wrong wording on the divinity of Jesus. Tertullian said the 3 or of One essence about late 3rd Century. He had some issues with the divinity of Jesus and Rome much later rejected the idea until the Council of Nicea a century later. There was a big ado over at Alexandria and Rome over the divinity of Jesus and Nicea settled that.
Baptism is practiced by most Christians and always practiced...... Everyone has always taken communion and We all confess our sins because He is faithful and just to forgive our sins. Nothing you mentioned Say's Catholic but it says Christian.
Once again we can take any denomination that practices these things from scripture (Like every denomination) and use your logic to prove Baptist, Methodist, and everyone else was also around at the time of the First Church in Acts.
It don't fly.
Each denomination has it's own doctrine that separates itself. Each have hand picked scriptures and formed their doctrine and added other things and Rome is no exception.
Blessings.
Marian prayer and devotion didn't begin with the rosary -- the rosary began with St. Dominic. However, Marian prayer can be seen in the scriptures, in Luke 1:42 when Elizabeth said "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." -- this is a perfect example of a prayer to Mary. A Marian prayer is never to be worship to Mary (though I bet some people do this erroneously).
St. Dominic had a visitation from the blessed mother, and this is where the rosary came from. However, praying with beads predates St. Dominic -- and before beads, people would often use pebbles in counting their prayers. However, many miraculous things have happened from praying the rosary -- here's a short list.
The rosary is not a thing to be worshiped, nor is it a thing that promoted vain repetition. It is a series of prayers that are intended to relive moments of Christ's life. It is worship to God and devotion to Mary as she was an obedient servant to Him.
This doesn't sound too kosher. Constantine was the first emperor of Rome to embrace Christianity (though he wasn't the best Christian, he also introduced the Edict of Tolerance). I'll have to review your info carefully, and then I'll give a clearer response
Indeed, and these are partly why Catholics don't discredit Protestants as being Christians.
Once again we can take any denomination that practices these things from scripture (Like every denomination) and use your logic to prove Baptist, Methodist, and everyone else was also around at the time of the First Church in Acts.
It don't fly.
Each denomination has it's own doctrine that separates itself. Each have hand picked scriptures and formed their doctrine and added other things and Rome is no exception.[/quote]
To claim every church has cherry-picked their way into a denomination that best suits them would be suggesting either that Christ founded multiple churches or that there is no one true church. The Holy Spirit guides us to God, but He doesn't intend to confuse.
Blessings.[/quote]