First Church?

[LysanderShapiro]

No, I do not think you are trying to start any arguments and I thank you for your replies. I also hope my questions are not offensive, and I apologize if they are.

So, the rosary and praying to Mary... if those came later, where did they come from?

Excellent question.
Prayer to Mary has been around as far back as when she was pregnant with Our Lord. In Luke 1:42-43, when Mary visited Elizabeth, it read "And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?"

The misconception is that Catholics pray in worship to Mary, but each prayer to Mary is a recognition of her grace bestowed on her from God, and no prayer is ever to bypass God and His Glory. In verse 48, Mary says "For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed." (I recommend reading the entire passage so that its context isn't lost). But Marian prayer predates the birth of Christ.

The Rosary is different, even though its prayers are Biblical, the actual sacramental itself came about in 1214 (I had to look that one up to be sure). An apparition of Mary visited St. Dominic and gave him the rosary. Counting prayers with pebbles and berries had been around centuries beforehand, mostly counting Our Father prayers. The early Christians used to thread berries on a string and count each one, not in vain repetition, but in persistence, just as Christ would pray in persistence. These were called "Paternosters" or "Our Father beads."

A lot of people are uncomfortable with praying to Mary as they think it is synonymous with worship -- which I can understand being a former Protestant. However, we are instructed to honor our parents and love them with all our hearts, which certainly isn't the same as worship. Mary being the mother of God deserves the same honor and love, and we do it because we love her Son.

As a Catholic, I can vouch in saying I certainly never have worshiped Mary. However, I often ask folks to pray for me, as I gladly pray for them. The latter part of the Hail Mary prayer is "Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death, Amen." All Christians believe that we have everlasting life in heaven, and it would be strange to say once in heaven, we are no longer the body of Christ...of course we are, and this is why we even ask those in heaven to pray for those. No one has ever been closer to the Lord than Mary has, and this is why it is especially important to Catholics (and I think Orthodox as well) to ask her to pray for us.

 

[MichaelH]

Marian prayer and devotion didn't begin with the rosary -- the rosary began with St. Dominic. However, Marian prayer can be seen in the scriptures, in Luke 1:42 when Elizabeth said "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb." -- this is a perfect example of a prayer to Mary. A Marian prayer is never to be worship to Mary (though I bet some people do this erroneously).

Everything sounded real good except for this part.......................... So If I say Brother you blessed today, then Catholics consider that praying to someone? I tell my wife she is the most blessed women at Work but I don't think that is a form of prayer.

Mary was Jesus Mother, and that would be an extreme blessing, but it's no indication there would be prayer to her after she had passed away. She was blessed, no doubt but we are also the blessed.

I think what is really going on is Catholics just take this scripture and streach it way out as some type of evidence to show something.
We don't take one scripture in a Private Setting anyway and make a doctrine out of it.

Mary is thought as an intercessor, the Rosary has like 29 Hail Mary's thrown in. The beads came later but so I would not need the beads in the picture but one scripture where we actually would pray to Mary. Mary was blessed but so are we and even if your the most loved of God and blessed on the planet, it's no indication that means pray to you.

My case still stands, we have no defining Catholic Practices until at least 1,000 years later after John wrote Revelation. The only practices we see would be common to anyone following the Bible. Catholics and everyone else included. We would need Catholic specific things and I find none, nor do I find any other things that make other denominations but that which is common and that is Christ Crucified for us.
What we don't have in any scripture but made up by Rome much later:

1) No mention of Papacy. (All the Disciples had their Work including some that were not part of the 12 like Barnabas.

2) Mary a Virgin (Jesus had Brothers) Mary a co-mediator.

3) Prayer or petition to any other Saint who had died.

4) Holy Water

5) Mass, where there was repetitive speaking (Jesus did not like that Matt 6) Rosary is also Repetitive of learned words, we Worship God in Spirit, not like Muslims who just repeat the same thing.

6) Infant Baptism: No infants mentioned as Baptized in Scriptures. Baptism came from confessing and believing the Lord Jesus, something an infant can't yet do.

7) Apostolic Succession is never seen in scriptures. We see Paul bring up other ministers such as Timothy, but nothing like Apostolic Succession is understood to be.

8) Confession of sin to a Priest. While this may not be bad, it was never a practice in Scriptures that we confess our Faults to one another. Faults is not sin though but getting help. Two places the Ministers just pray (James) and (John) and the sins are forgiven without the confession as it's known today.

9) Purgatory........................ No idea where that came from. To die in the Lord is to be With the Lord. There was no place of getting right with God once dead, as you needed to be right with God before dying. Man is appointed to die once, then Judgement.......... Not put in a place to get it right. The Blood of Jesus is more than enough and the extra work in Purgatory is not needed.

All this is missing from Scriptures, so that tells us the Catholic church came much later.

Look at the other denominations, you will find they define themselves also by things not mentioned in scriptures.

Blessings.

 

[Glomung]

What the Protestants constantly seem to forget (or blatantly avoid) is that the Church has had many who have spoken to God and Christ directly, whose testimony is every bit as valid as that of the apostles. It is from those Saints that the Church gets some of it's doctrine concerning these points, and looks to places in scripture to support what they've learned. Much of what is in the Marian doctrine we have received from St. Mary herself.

Jesus paid for the sin, not the penance. That is why there is Purgatory (which is an activity, not a place).

Confess ye your sins one to another. That was the command.
To priests through Peter was given the authority to loose or bind.
Why confess your sins to someone who has no authority to release you from them?
That is one of the reasons we have clergy, they are God's appointed authorities.

Infant baptism is an exorcism ritual, there is still confirmation where the person makes the decisions you associate with baptism.

 

[Glomung]

I don't know why I bother. Catholic bashing is a hobby amongst some here.
You don't bother to actually find out why the doctrine is as it is, you just throw accusations.
Go hassle the Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Everything sounded real good except for this part.......................... So If I say Brother you blessed today, then Catholics consider that praying to someone? I tell my wife she is the most blessed women at Work but I don't think that is a form of prayer.

When we pray to God, it should always be done in a form of worship -- being in awe of Him, in thankfulness, and even in a time of need.

Prayer to Mary and even the saints is not the same kind of prayer one would think of when they are praying to God. Here's an illustration, and bare with me on this as I know it's not a perfect one, but I hope it will at least put things into perspective as this can be challenging for many Protestants and even some Catholics sometimes...

Let's say are having stress problems and you decide to go to a specific friend of yours who has been there once and overcame that problem with stress and you ask him to pray for you...this is the idea of praying to saints.

Taking it a bit further, let's say you go to your pastor who's life is revolved around service to God, you especially decide to go to him in asking him to pray with and for you because, well, the closer one is to God, the better. This is the general idea in praying to Mary. No prayer should ever bypass God. You wouldn't go to your pastor and ask for help and then say "I want YOUR help, not God's." Rather, you'd go to the pastor because his closeness to God is a strength within prayer.

It's a stretch, but it's an analogy anyway. Elizabeth knew and believed Mary when Mary told her that she was carrying the savior. God found favor in Mary as said in Luke 1:30, and she was very special for this reason.

I think what is really going on is Catholics just take this scripture and streach it way out as some type of evidence to show something. We don't take one scripture in a Private Setting anyway and make a doctrine out of it.

Not at all. I used to attack Catholics as being just like Jehovah's Witnesses in taking a single verse in scripture and saying "See?! This one verse! That proves such and such!" However, this is not what Catholics do. There are multiple verses that support the doctrine and it has stayed faithful to the faith for 2000 years.

I think the biggest stretch, and I mean no disrespect, came from Martin Luther in Protestantism as he not only manipulated scripture to his convenience, but he even added the word "alone" to his translation of Romans 3:28, removed multiple books from the Bible, including the Epistle of James which he called "an epistle of straw" (meaning a crock of BS). Eventually, he was talked into putting it back into the Gospels, but he then made the famous statement "That epistle of James gives us much trouble, for the papists embrace it alone and leave out all the rest. Up to this point I have been accustomed just to deal with and interpret it according to the sense of the rest of Scriptures. For you will judge that none of it must be set forth contrary to manifest Holy Scripture. Accordingly, if they will not admit my interpretations, then I shall make rubble also of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kalenberg did."

Mary is thought as an intercessor, the Rosary has like 29 Hail Mary's thrown in. The beads came later but so I would not need the beads in the picture but one scripture where we actually would pray to Mary. Mary was blessed but so are we and even if your the most loved of God and blessed on the planet, it's no indication that means pray to you.

Mary is venerated, and rightfully so. I think the divide Protestants tend to have with Mary is due to the word "prayer." Sadly, I've also seen it extended to very disrespectful grounds in calling Mary nothing more than an "incubator" or that she's just "some dead woman." Most people wouldn't dream of speaking that way of their own mothers...it's far worse to do it of Jesus' mother.

My case still stands, we have no defining Catholic Practices until at least 1,000 years later after John wrote Revelation. The only practices we see would be common to anyone following the Bible. Catholics and everyone else included. We would need Catholic specific things and I find none, nor do I find any other things that make other denominations but that which is common and that is Christ Crucified for us.

Blessings.

I think one divide has been brought in by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which has been discussed here about a hundred times. While all scripture is God-breathed and profitable in teaching, in practice, etc (as it says in 2 Timothy 3:16), there is no verse that supports Sola Scriptura, and for Sola Scriptura to be a valid doctrine, it would have to be in the scriptures.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I'll do my best to respond to these as best I can.

What we don't have in any scripture but made up by Rome much later:

1) No mention of Papacy. (All the Disciples had their Work including some that were not part of the 12 like Barnabas.

The term "Catholic Church" was not recorded until about 110 A.D. when one of Peter's students, Ignatius of Antioch, wrote about it in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. However, when Christ told Peter "on this rock, I will build my church," he was talking about the papacy. If you're looking for the word "Papacy" or "Catholic" in the Bible, you won't find it...just as you won't find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but you will find Biblical support for each.

2) Mary a Virgin (Jesus had Brothers) Mary a co-mediator.

To begin, Jesus did not have brothers. You might say "But it says in Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, Mark 6:3, etc. that Jesus had brothers." Here's the twist; the word "brother" or "brethren" had a wide meaning in Hebrew (and in Greek, adelphos). Brother extended out in meaning "kin." This is why in Genesis 14:14, Lot is called Abraham's brother, but a couple of verses back in verse 12, we see that Lot is Abraham's nephew.

The brothers of Jesus mentioned in Mark 6:3. In Matthew 27:56, it says "Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." Jesus' cousins were the sons of a different Mary.

I wouldn't call Mary a co-mediator as there is only one mediator, and that's Christ. I think this is where Protestants get confused about Catholics and Mary.

3) Prayer or petition to any other Saint who had died.

To begin, there are no dead saints so to speak. Every Christian (no matter Catholic or Protestant or anything between) knows that we have eternal life in heaven and remain part of the body of Christ. We are told in James 5:16 to pray to one another -- why should this exclude the saints? The saints are mentioned in Hebrews 12:1, and Ephesians 2:19-20 to name a few. The most remarkable one is Revelations 5:8.

4) Holy Water

I don't know the full history of Holy Water itself other than Biblical passages of water, but I will find out and get back to you.

5) Mass, where there was repetitive speaking (Jesus did not like that Matt 6) Rosary is also Repetitive of learned words, we Worship God in Spirit, not like Muslims who just repeat the same thing.

This is a misunderstanding. As mentioned before, the rosary, nor the Mass, nor any other traditional Catholic prayer is said in vain repetition. It is said in persistence. Jesus himself did this in Matthew 26:44 and Mark 14:39. In Revelation 4:8, the angels did the same thing. In Luke 11:2, we are taught the Our Father prayer...is it vain repetition to pray it more than once? Or would it be vain repetition to sing Amazing Grace?

6) Infant Baptism: No infants mentioned as Baptized in Scriptures. Baptism came from confessing and believing the Lord Jesus, something an infant can't yet do.

This isn't exclusively a Catholic practice as other denominations did this, including some Protestants like Presbyterians. But perhaps you're also claiming they're wrong too, which is OK. First, does the Bible restrict infant baptism? Which verse says "do not baptize infants?" In Colossians 2:11-12, it expresses that baptism of the circumcision of the New Covenant. In 1 Corinthians 1:16, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:18, and Acts 18:18, whole households were baptized.

Did Christ not say "Let the little children come to me"?

7) Apostolic Succession is never seen in scriptures. We see Paul bring up other ministers such as Timothy, but nothing like Apostolic Succession is understood to be.

Do you know what Apostolic succession means?

8) Confession of sin to a Priest. While this may not be bad, it was never a practice in Scriptures that we confess our Faults to one another. Faults is not sin though but getting help. Two places the Ministers just pray (James) and (John) and the sins are forgiven without the confession as it's known today.

Confession to a priest is taught in scriptures. In John 20:21-23, it says "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus breathing on his disciples is a significant moment as it is the second time in the Bible that God breathed on man. He told them to receive the Holy Spirit and gave them authority on His behalf to forgive and retain sins

Catholics are taught to pray to God and ask for forgiveness, but we aren't asking a priest's forgiveness. The priest does this as agents of Christ.

9) Purgatory........................ No idea where that came from. To die in the Lord is to be With the Lord. There was no place of getting right with God once dead, as you needed to be right with God before dying. Man is appointed to die once, then Judgement.......... Not put in a place to get it right. The Blood of Jesus is more than enough and the extra work in Purgatory is not needed.

Like the word "trinity" you won't find the word "purgatory" in the Bible, but you will find scriptural backing. Purgatory is a term given for its meaning. Psalms 66:12, 1 Corinthians 3:10-16, 1 Corinthians 15:29-30, and 1 Peter 3:18-20 all mention purgatory (though outside of its name, like the trinity as mentioned).

Man cannot enter heaven imperfectly.

All this is missing from Scriptures, so that tells us the Catholic church came much later.

I'm sorry, but not only is there scripture, but this doesn't even begin to begin to prove how Catholicism came later. The problem isn't that there is no scriptural backing for Catholic doctrine because the entire Bible supports it...the problem, and I mean no offense, is that you don't understand Catholicism. You instead of a bastardized interpretation of it.

And even outside of your distorted understanding of Catholicism, you still have not shared Biblical references to Sola Scriptura. Have you left the burden all on me? MichaelH, I'm in need of some answers as well.

Look at the other denominations, you will find they define themselves also by things not mentioned in scriptures.

Are you suggesting there is no one true Church?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I don't know why I bother. Catholic bashing is a hobby amongst some here.
You don't bother to actually find out why the doctrine is as it is, you just throw accusations.
Go hassle the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Thankfully, many here have been gracious to us. We shouldn't disregard those people.

 

[KingJ]

I was lead to the Lord by a nun. Not sure how we can find fault with someone who has 'literally' dedicated their entire life to not ''religion'' but Jesus! Priests, nuns and the Catholic church is under attack by the devil. Not for blurry / minor doctrinal issues and practices, rather for lifting up the name of Jesus.

I recall the message by the cardinal at Prince William's wedding, what a message!

I even have new found respect for the pope. He is just a human trying his best. He is elected by a council of 'elders', not rich, random mickey mouse prosperity teachers. No nun, priest, bishop, pope make their life long commitments of sacrifice / putting the flesh under out of hate for Jesus! That for me is the bottom line. So what if a church has some questionable 'structure' to it. It has been around for plenty years.

Just think what the people in 20 years time will think of the current Methodist church. The sexism in it. The anti-homosexual stance.

 

[Sweet Pea]

I'll respond more in depth in a little bit, but I just want to say that I don't dislike Catholics. My FIL and step-MIL are Catholic as is my best friend (although she has a lot of questions, also, so she doesn't know all the answers to my questions). I don't like all the division in the church and I wish there wasn't any. That is why I am trying to understand. I mean no disrespect to anyone and my questions are not to offend or tell anyone they are wrong and going to hell.

Personally, I don't care about the little issues. I wouldn't have a problem baptizing my baby. I would just make sure he knew to do it again when he was older so it could be his choice. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me.

As far as Mary, I do think she was blessed, but I think anyone who has a baby is blessed. The Bible says she found favor with God, correct, so it sounds like she was a good woman. Again, not my issue. I just don't believe she was without sin. Jesus was the only one without sin. I do not believe she is a co-redemptrix as I have heard that Catholics believe (not sure if that is true).

As far as praying to her or saints, I would not personally do that. We are not supposed to communicate with the dead and I feel that is doing so. As far as confession... I don't think it's a bad thing to do, but I don't think it is necessary to be saved.

Other issues would be things I've read throughout the years... that the RCC wanted to convert pagans, so they kept their holidays but gave them Christian names, but other churches would have the same issue as most celebrate these.

Marriage annulments was a big one for me. The Bible gives two reasons to divorce, but Catholics do not believe in that. How do they not think there are reasons when they are right in the Bible? On the other hand, they annul marriages for many more reasons. I don't think that is okay at all.

The rosary... I think we are not supposed to look at the pagan and worship God in this way. After researching, it seems these were used by pagans. Yes, I have heard the argument about then we have to avoid all pagan things in the world... but it just seems that when Jesus instructed us on how to pray, he would have mentioned that if it was something we should do.

The last thing, I really hesitate to say because it probably sounds disrespectful, but visions of dead people... many have claimed this... Joseph Smith (LDS), certain cults... I think you have to examine the Bible and make sure these revelations are biblical.

I don't think it's okay to bow before statues or icons and pray. We all know the verses:

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, theLord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourthgenerations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

The part in bold is really self-explanatory.

This one is more for the rosary beads, but also works for that:

29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ 31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

This one can apply to a lot:
32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

I would say that would be certain traditions that contradict scripture... marriage annulment, for example. Plus this one:

“When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled, for that is an abomination before the Lord. And you shall not bring sin upon the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance.

I've heard Catholics say it's okay because the first marriage was not invalid, so they were not really married to the second spouse, but that is NOT what this verse says. They were married. Also, the woman at the well had five husbands according to Jesus. He didn't say one and the rest were not. He said five, but the one she is with now is not her husband.

Anyway, these are just the things I can remember off the top of my head. Just because I believe or don't believe something doesn't mean I'm going to try to force it on anyone.

 

[MichaelH]

I think one divide has been brought in by the doctrine of Sola Scriptura which has been discussed here about a hundred times. While all scripture is God-breathed and profitable in teaching, in practice, etc (as it says in 2 Timothy 3:16), there is no verse that supports Sola Scriptura, and for Sola Scriptura to be a valid doctrine, it would have to be in the scriptures.

Thank you for the time explaining things. None of it proved that Catholic or any church was first but was was mentioned as being practiced in Acts.

Sola Scripture:

Sola Scripture does not forbid tradition in each church. There is no scripture stating if we should sing, or take an offering. Many put that into practice though.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Paul was also given the Word, and sits in one of the 12 seats. Jesus never quoted a tradition as truth but made reference 100 times about to scriptures. Any Word aside from the 12 where never authorized, but Jesus makes it clear the 12 he had we are to believe on their word. We are told not to take away or add to the Word, and no others were mentioned that we are told to believe on but the 12.

Loose and binding:
Every Believe can loose and bind, or pray for sins to be forgiven. Sin brings place to the devil, and we have every right to speak against the devil destroying someone. We are the light and have the authority.

Mary Praying:
Well, you gave the best example possible. We all are the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus and have right standing with God. (Which is what righteousness means, right standing with)

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

If anyone would understand best, it would be our High Priest Jesus, not Mary. I understand none of the Saints are actually dead, but Ecc says once dead you have no more part under the sun.

True Church:
Nothing in Greek denotes a denomination or even a Church Building. Church means a meeting of people. Jesus said who are my brothers, sisters, mother? Those that will do the will of God.

So it would seem the temple is us, and no concern was given to a specific True Church.
We all have the Holy Spirit our teacher who leads and guides us into all truth that no man should teach us. In other words, Man can teach but the Holy Spirit takes that and brings light to it making it real.

Right now it seems we are reaching for a specific Catholic practice that would separate them from the rest as being the first Church and it's just not there. I would need to see in Scripture specific Catholic things and there are none that are not common to every single believer.

I can take a couple scriptures and make some case for purgatory, but I can't get around that men die once then judgement and Jesus said we are judged already if we do not believe on him. I would have to (Forget) a few other scriptures to do it.

I can't take praying to Mary, because it's not there and being blessed among women as many are blessed does not denote a rosery or prayer to Mary.

I can't take infant baptism because it's not there, the whole house that was baptized no children mentioned and it was with the Holy Spirit, not Johns Water Baptism. I would need a baby baptized scripture, and the children coming to Jesus is not close enough.
The child is sanctified by the believing parent, so the Child covenant with God would be through Mom and Dad.

I have nothing to show me that a Catholic was up in the House!!!! during Acts.

Here is the problem though as the Lord just spoke to me Wisdom.

Even if there was all these things mentioned that is Traditional to the Catholic Church, and were mentioned in scriptures, then every other denomination would also be practicing them. Everyone would be praying to Mary, and everyone would be talking about Purgatory as it would be clear in scripture.
We would still be back to square one the Lord told me in proving any denomination to be the first Church.

Blessings.

 

[Sweet Pea]

LOL, wound up writing a book! Just wanted to add to something. When we were told how to pray in the Bible, wouldn't rosary beads have been mentioned at all if we were supposed to use them?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Thank you for the time explaining things. None of it proved that Catholic or any church was first but was was mentioned as being practiced in Acts.

Michael, I didn't respond in the effort to "prove" the Catholic Church was the first. I was only responding to you misunderstandings of the Catholic Church. I doubt I would be able to provide the evidence within one single post. It took me years to reach this conclusion, as it might you if you ever wanted to learn about Catholicism.

Sola Scripture:

Sola Scripture does not forbid tradition in each church. There is no scripture stating if we should sing, or take an offering. Many put that into practice though.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Expand on that.

Paul was also given the Word, and sits in one of the 12 seats. Jesus never quoted a tradition as truth but made reference 100 times about to scriptures. Any Word aside from the 12 where never authorized, but Jesus makes it clear the 12 he had we are to believe on their word. We are told not to take away or add to the Word, and no others were mentioned that we are told to believe on but the 12.

You're 1) confusion Tradition with tradition. 2) You're treating assuming that the Church expired with the disciples.

True Church:
Nothing in Greek denotes a denomination or even a Church Building. Church means a meeting of people. Jesus said who are my brothers, sisters, mother? Those that will do the will of God.

That's because the Church was not made up of denominations. The word "catholic" just means universal. It is the Universal Church.

So it would seem the temple is us, and no concern was given to a specific True Church.

The concern in that by suggesting there is no one true Church or that it doesn't matter, it is welcoming heresies.

We all have the Holy Spirit our teacher who leads and guides us into all truth that no man should teach us. In other words, Man can teach but the Holy Spirit takes that and brings light to it making it real.

But Michael, with 41,000 denominations all claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit, there seems to be a problem. The Holy Spirit isn't here to confuse.

It is getting a bit late, but I will certainly provide an answer all of your concerns and confusions soon.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

LOL, wound up writing a book! Just wanted to add to something. When we were told how to pray in the Bible, wouldn't rosary beads have been mentioned at all if we were supposed to use them?

Great question. To begin, we are told how to pray with the Lord's prayer, but we aren't restricted in other prayers. We pray our own words everyday usually. There are also other traditional prayer many of us pray that are not the Lord's prayer.

The rosary does involve the Lord's prayer, six times in fact. One doesn't need a rosary in order to pray the rosary -- one could do it with his own hand or even in his head (provided he can keep count -- but the most important part of it is the connection of our relationship with God).

Consider this as well, should going to church on Sunday have been mentioned in the Bible if we are to go to church on Sunday?

 

[Brother David]

The first Church was built upon the rock...
Matthew 16:13-19
King James Version (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This "Rock" is the firm foundation of the revelation of who Jesus reall is, not merely the Son of God, but God alone and completely.
Jesus gave instructions to His Disciples in:
Luke 24:45-49
King James Version (KJV)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
The first New Testament Church began in Acts chapter two after the Apostles came out of the upper room on the Day of Pentecost.
Peter (who had the "key of the kingdom") preched exactly what Jesus had instructed in Luke chapter 24:47-49
Repentance- Baptism in the NAME od Jesus Christ (for the remission of sins) Gift (Baptism) of the Holy Ghost.
After Peter preached that glorious message in:
Acts 2:38
King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Church was born upon that powerful message- the Bible states that 3,000 souls were baptised !!

Acts 2:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

[ixoye_8]

1) many Theologians agree Peter was the chosen leader of the 12 by Jesus .. Clement who is "called 2nd" is mentioned in the NT .. the word "papa" or "pope" is first recorded about 150 ce ..

2) Jesus' siblings are not proof Mary was not a virgin as they could have been from a former marriage by Joseph .. however, Mat 1:25 is proof that she was not a "perpetual virgin" ..
Jesus is the only mediator because He enacted the covenant that made redemption possible (1Ti 2:5) yet Jesus and the HS are both intercessors (Rom 8:34 & Rom 8:26) ..

3) King David speaks of "veneration" of the saints ..

4) Holy water was used by the Priests and High Priests in the Temple in the OT (Num 19:9) ..

5) read both verses together to gain the correct context ..
Mat 6:7 begins with "but" (de) so it is a comparision ..
Jesus doesn't say "NOT TO" .. he says if you think that it is pleasing to God to make a spectacle of prayer like the Pharisee who prays and beats his heart before all in public, you are wrong, as God prefers praying in private (one on one) ..
He says:
Mat 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
ok .. so pray in private .. the next verse is meant as an OPPOSITE ..
CORRECT TRANSLATION:
Mat 6:7 But pray neither babbling words, even as (the) Gentiles, because they think that hearing comes for their many words.
FYI: scripture doesn't use the word NOT or NEVER ..
οὐ (G3756) expresses an absolute denial
nor does it use the word "vain" (that was added by translators not said by Jesus) ..
what it says is: battalogeō .. this comes from "battos" meaning "to babble" and "logos" meaning word .. thus "babbling words" ..
it says NOTHING ABOUT REPETITION in the Greek ..
FYI: Protestants have Rosary's too ..

6) infant Baptism is akin to Dedication .. God decreed that after 33 days for a male child (Lev 12:4) and 66 days for a female child (Lev 12:5) infants were to be dedicated (Lev 12:6) even Jesus was (Luk 2:22) in the RCC that is what they do as the Parents and Godparents vow to God to raise the child to know and obey God ... and then at the age of reasoning (12) a child has confirmation, which is a conscious decision to follow God (born again) ..
interesting enough, God also told Joshua etc that male babies UNDER one month old are NOT to be counted .. so this period (day 0-33) is some kind of "grace period" (those not dedicated to God) ..

7) Apostolic Secession can be found in 2Ti 2:2 ..
The Apostles set up Bishops (episkopos) deacons (diakonos) and elders (presbyteros) from the beginning and I see no problem with church structure growing as the church did .. actually it was imperative it did to maintain being one/united/katholiko as Jesus prayed in the Gospel of John that they would ..
here is my assessment (Eph 2:20-22) ..
Jesus Christ is the corner stone ..
(by which the whole structure is aligned)
the prophets and Apostles make up the foundation ..
the early churches were all collectively assumed under either the RCC or Greek Orthodox and are the second layer ..

8) Peter played confessor to Sapphira in Act 5:8 ..

9) Purgatory is the equivalent of the Jewish Sheol ..

 

[Brother Paul]

Well yes, there has been broad division ever since (I think) 431 A.D. when the Assyrian Orthodox Church broke away at the Council of Ephesus.

My belief is that the first church is the Catholic Church, but I'm in the minority here for that one. The myth that it was founded by Constantine in the 4th century is exactly that--a myth. Though he did introduce it to Rome as Christianity was not welcome in Rome beforehand.

It's certainly important to review scripture and history when wanting to find out which church was Christ talking about when he founded it.

I'm only expressing what I believe...I'm not trying to begin any debates here.

Yes but "catholic" meant something very different then (not Roman)...after all Peter was the Bishop in Antioch before he or Paul ever went to Rome, so does that make Antioch the first church? No! the first organized ekklesia were in Jerusalem all others are second. Churches were formed all throughout the mediterranean decades before any Apostle set foot in Rome and when they arrived there were already believers there. No denomination is the "first church".

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Yes but "catholic" meant something very different then (not Roman)...after all Peter was the Bishop in Antioch before he or Paul ever went to Rome, so does that make Antioch the first church? No! the first organized ekklesia were in Jerusalem all others are second. Churches were formed all throughout the mediterranean decades before any Apostle set foot in Rome and when they arrived there were already believers there. No denomination is the "first church".

Friend, "catholic" doesn't even mean Roman, nor does the Catholic Church claim this. It means "universal" as it did when it was used in the first century too. This was a term used at least dating back to when St. Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch (a student of St. Peter).

You are misunderstanding Rome to be the sole point of the Church...but it really isn't. The term "Roman Catholic" isn't even the official term and was coined by the Anglican Church as meaning to be pejorative. The official term is simply "Catholic."

When the question is asking "First Church," this isn't in regards to first parish or first group of people.

 

[Brother Paul]

I has said Yes but "catholic" meant something very different then (not Roman)...after all Peter was the Bishop in Antioch before he or Paul ever went to Rome, so does that make Antioch the first church? No! the first organized ekklesia were in Jerusalem all others are second. Churches were formed all throughout the mediterranean decades before any Apostle set foot in Rome and when they arrived there were already believers there. No denomination is the "first church".

And you replied,
"Friend, "catholic" doesn't even mean Roman, nor does the Catholic Church claim this. It means "universal" as it did when it was used in the first century too. This was a term used at least dating back to when St. Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch (a student of St. Peter).

You are misunderstanding Rome to be the sole point of the Church...but it really isn't. The term "Roman Catholic" isn't even the official term and was coined by the Anglican Church as meaning to be pejorative. The official term is simply "Catholic."

When the question is asking "First Church," this isn't in regards to first parish or first group of people.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you by brother but basically you said exactly the same thing I just said. There was no disagreement where correction was necessary. I never once indicated I misunderstood Rome to be the sole point of Christianity (the point being, there is no "first" church for there was it would have been the Jerusalem church...but as you aptly indicated it is not about local bodies geographically) and I also demonstrated the idea (though indirectly) that "catholic" was more universal in application, and did not mean Roman Catholic (as so many of them call themselves today) or adhering to a set number of councils which were not even thought of when the term was applied. Nothing I said in the quote you captioned is untrue.

Ignatius on the other hand, was a disciple of the Apostle John, but he sat under Peter in Antioch for the time Peter was there (so Ignatius had the instruction of two Apostles). I think we would agree that there is only one Church, the ekklesia of God, regardless of geography. I consider myself to have no denominational affiliation now, and know I am of the one holy, apostolic, catholic, church. I have no ill will or ill feelings toward any of my Roman Catholic or Orthodox or Baptist or Pentecostal brethren...for no denomination has all the truth or the sole truth. Christ never started denominations...all true believers (not make believers) born from above, are the Church...this was the first and only even now Church...all who have the Spirit of Christ in them are of Him and are His. It is all about Christ and we are in Him.

In His love

Brother Paul

 

[Brother Paul]

1) many Theologians agree Peter was the chosen leader of the 12 by Jesus .. Clement who is "called 2nd" is mentioned in the NT .. the word "papa" or "pope" is first recorded about 150 ce ..

2) Jesus' siblings are not proof Mary was not a virgin as they could have been from a former marriage by Joseph .. however, Mat 1:25 is proof that she was not a "perpetual virgin" ..
Jesus is the only mediator because He enacted the covenant that made redemption possible (1Ti 2:5) yet Jesus and the HS are both intercessors (Rom 8:34 & Rom 8:26) ..

3) King David speaks of "veneration" of the saints ..

4) Holy water was used by the Priests and High Priests in the Temple in the OT (Num 19:9) ..

5) read both verses together to gain the correct context ..
Mat 6:7 begins with "but" (de) so it is a comparision ..
Jesus doesn't say "NOT TO" .. he says if you think that it is pleasing to God to make a spectacle of prayer like the Pharisee who prays and beats his heart before all in public, you are wrong, as God prefers praying in private (one on one) ..
He says:
Mat 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
ok .. so pray in private .. the next verse is meant as an OPPOSITE ..
CORRECT TRANSLATION:
Mat 6:7 But pray neither babbling words, even as (the) Gentiles, because they think that hearing comes for their many words.
FYI: scripture doesn't use the word NOT or NEVER ..
οὐ (G3756) expresses an absolute denial
nor does it use the word "vain" (that was added by translators not said by Jesus) ..
what it says is: battalogeō .. this comes from "battos" meaning "to babble" and "logos" meaning word .. thus "babbling words" ..
it says NOTHING ABOUT REPETITION in the Greek ..
FYI: Protestants have Rosary's too ..

6) infant Baptism is akin to Dedication .. God decreed that after 33 days for a male child (Lev 12:4) and 66 days for a female child (Lev 12:5) infants were to be dedicated (Lev 12:6) even Jesus was (Luk 2:22) in the RCC that is what they do as the Parents and Godparents vow to God to raise the child to know and obey God ... and then at the age of reasoning (12) a child has confirmation, which is a conscious decision to follow God (born again) ..
interesting enough, God also told Joshua etc that male babies UNDER one month old are NOT to be counted .. so this period (day 0-33) is some kind of "grace period" (those not dedicated to God) ..

7) Apostolic Secession can be found in 2Ti 2:2 ..
The Apostles set up Bishops (episkopos) deacons (diakonos) and elders (presbyteros) from the beginning and I see no problem with church structure growing as the church did .. actually it was imperative it did to maintain being one/united/katholiko as Jesus prayed in the Gospel of John that they would ..
here is my assessment (Eph 2:20-22) ..
Jesus Christ is the corner stone ..
(by which the whole structure is aligned)
the prophets and Apostles make up the foundation ..
the early churches were all collectively assumed under either the RCC or Greek Orthodox and are the second layer ..

8) Peter played confessor to Sapphira in Act 5:8 ..

9) Purgatory is the equivalent of the Jewish Sheol ..

Loved it all...very well explained considering the limitations of a forum response...however for those who have been baptized by the Spirit into Christ Jesus they do not go to a purgatory or to sheol/hades....to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (see Revelations 7 for one example)....now, for us, it is our works which will be tried as if by fire...post death purgatio is not longer necessary...He who promised has also done it (we rest in Him)...

So this would be the only place I might disagree, however Sheol/Hades is definitely a biblical concept (Christ alludes to it in Luke 16 for example) but I do not think it is applicable to those genuinely born from above...just my opinion, but altogether well done brother

Thanks

Brother Paul

 

[ixoye_8]

Brother Paul .. you're too kind ..

prior to Jesus' death, there was only one place of waiting, Sheol ..
Jesus brought a new covenant that for the first time made redemption possible, at which point Peter tells us Jesus during the 3 days in the tomb, went and preached the Gospel of salvation to those in prison (Sheol)(1Pe 3:19, 1Pe 4:6) .. once that happened, all that lived before that had an equal opportunity for salvation as those who live after his sacrifice .. at this point, there now is a choice in accepting His sacrifice or not, hence now 2 places of waiting .. "Sheol" was then replaced with "Hades" (Luk 16:23) and "the Bosom of Abraham" (Luk 16:22)(aka paradise) .. Fast-Forward .. after the millennium Kingdom (2nd generation) no more humans will be born .. so then comes Judgement Day and "Death" & "Hades" will then be thrown in the lake of fire (aka Hell) because they no longer serve a purpose ..

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

JUGEMENT DAY ..
Act 10:42 “And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
2Ti 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
1Pe 4:5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

the verses you refer to 2Cr 5:6,8 ..
just because you are in Jesus presence, does not mean you are in heaven ..

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

obviously hell is not located in heaven
thus to be in The Bosom of Abraham (aka paradise)
you are "present with the Lord"