First Church?

Reading all this rendition about Catholicism and how most seem to mis-interpret what being a Catholic really is should hurt everyone's heart because Jesus the Christ did not stop anyone who in His name made miracles, yet so many here do. Also, i belong to other groups and forums and it is the one thing that binds all non-Catholics together and that is to bash Catholics, it's what keeps their dialogue going forgetting that as Christians we are to love Christ and to worship Jesus and to glorify God... on the other hand i don't hear Catholics bashing any other religion but i do see the Pope always trying to bring all together loving our Lord Jesus, but other religions find pleasure and get their pews filled by bashing us... sad to see this...

This post was cleverly devised as a question when in fact it was to make a statement for the answers were never truly addressed and answers never understood no matter how much proof was given... would like to tank Lysander for truly explaining the beauty of Catholicism and the love this church has for all, and how this wonderful church started.
 
As i read how most of other denominations say that the Catholic church was not the first church nor was she mentioned in the Bible, yet forget that there is no mention of Protestants, or Baptists, or Lutherans, or Seventh Day, or Mormons, or any other denomination that came after the Catholic church in the Bible ...
 
RosaVera said:
Reading all this rendition about Catholicism and how most seem to mis-interpret what being a Catholic really is should hurt everyone's heart because Jesus the Christ did not stop anyone who in His name made miracles, yet so many here do. Also, i belong to other groups and forums and it is the one thing that binds all non-Catholics together and that is to bash Catholics, it's what keeps their dialogue going forgetting that as Christians we are to love Christ and to worship Jesus and to glorify God... on the other hand i don't hear Catholics bashing any other religion but i do see the Pope always trying to bring all together loving our Lord Jesus, but other religions find pleasure and get their pews filled by bashing us... sad to see this...

This post was cleverly devised as a question when in fact it was to make a statement for the answers were never truly addressed and answers never understood no matter how much proof was given... would like to tank Lysander for truly explaining the beauty of Catholicism and the love this church has for all, and how this wonderful church started.
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The Lord be with you sister...the way your wording is expressed, I must ask...IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true church" and when YOU use the word Catholic do you only mean Roman Catholics? I ask this because I believe with all my heart that all who are born from above (not the cliche' but actually children of God by His Spirit) ARE of the catholic faith...God makes one His child. The catholic church (the body of Christ spreading into the whole world) existed in other locations before Peter and Paul went to Rome and Peter was Bishop of Antioch before he was "Bishop" in Rome (if he ever was...there is nothing to demonstrate that)...
 
Brother Paul, forgive me for interjecting, but what is the Roman Catholic Church in contrast to the Catholic Church? Are you referring to groups like the Byzantine Catholics?
 
Brother Paul said:
The Lord be with you sister...the way your wording is expressed, I must ask...IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true church" and when YOU use the word Catholic do you only mean Roman Catholics? I ask this because I believe with all my heart that all who are born from above (not the cliche' but actually children of God by His Spirit) ARE of the catholic faith...God makes one His child. The catholic church (the body of Christ spreading into the whole world) existed in other locations before Peter and Paul went to Rome and Peter was Bishop of Antioch before he was "Bishop" in Rome (if he ever was...there is nothing to demonstrate that)...
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Thank you Brother Paul... question is what is the true church of God...? Is it one of the 7 as quoted in Revelation, but then event those not all were in sync with our Lord's gospel. Our Lord Jesus said we are all His family IF we do the will of the Father... our Lord Jesus also said that what differentiates us from all others is our love for one another hence we are His disciples and make up His church. Hence when you see a concerted group of Christians, a church that professes the gospels of our Lord, demeaning another group of Christians, another church, are they the 'true church' ...?

i gave birth to my daughter, she is a part of me, she looks like me, does a lot of things like me, but is she the original me that gave birth to her...?
 
Why is this such an important topic? Unless someone can make the case that we'll be judged based on what church we went to (rather than what we actually believe), then this just seems like a debate based on pride and tribalism...."My church is Number 1!! w00t!!" "Nuh uh! Mine is!" :rolleyes:
 
RiverJordan said:
Why is this such an important topic? Unless someone can make the case that we'll be judged based on what church we went to (rather than what we actually believe), then this just seems like a debate based on pride and tribalism...."My church is Number 1!! w00t!!" "Nuh uh! Mine is!" :rolleyes:
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I think it could appear like a debate based on mere tribalism, but it's not if a particular Church holds a very important position doctrinally.

For instance, if RoseVera and I are right about the Catholic Church being the church founded by Christ, then that means the sacraments are now playing a massive role in our salvation.

If Non-Denominational Christianity is what Christ established, then it probably doesn't matter at all.
 
RiverJordan said:
So is it your position that non-Catholics aren't heaven-bound (due to the sacraments)?
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The short answer to that is no. However, there is much more to be said beyond that, because even a Catholic who has received all of his sacraments isn't automatically heaven-bound if he isn't keeping to God's Word.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I think it could appear like a debate based on mere tribalism, but it's not if a particular Church holds a very important position doctrinally.

For instance, if RoseVera and I are right about the Catholic Church being the church founded by Christ, then that means the sacraments are now playing a massive role in our salvation.

If Non-Denominational Christianity is what Christ established, then it probably doesn't matter at all.
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Lysander i know you understand the reverence we have in mass when the Eucharist is being given to all of us in the form of the communion bread and wine, the incense is burned and singing from the choir, it all becomes one holy and incredible moment going up and receiving it both... there is a feeling afterward as the 'Hostia' and the wine are in our mouth as if a cleansing is traveling down and getting rid of the sin... a sense of uplifting and release is felt, and it all just seems to come together, the volunteers on the altar, the priest praying and handling so very carefully the chalice of wine and the bowl with the Host in it ... the communion of all of us in the church singing and praying to our God together in one voice is as close to God as one can be in that moment.

Not to say that what each of us does in private praying is of anyway less, but being in the company of so many as our Lord Christ did when He went regularly to the synagogue is wonderful...

Our Lord Jesus did not do away with the sacraments, He gave us the sacrament of the bread and wine the commnunion for all of us to share and to do in His name...
 
Brother Paul said:
The Lord be with you sister...the way your wording is expressed, I must ask...IYO are only Roman Catholics "the true church" and when YOU use the word Catholic do you only mean Roman Catholics? I ask this because I believe with all my heart that all who are born from above (not the cliche' but actually children of God by His Spirit) ARE of the catholic faith...God makes one His child. The catholic church (the body of Christ spreading into the whole world) existed in other locations before Peter and Paul went to Rome and Peter was Bishop of Antioch before he was "Bishop" in Rome (if he ever was...there is nothing to demonstrate that)...
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brother Paul .. you are correct as we are made alive through the spirit ..
I think many of the RCC denomination have acquired a knee jerk reaction from all the abuse thrown on doctrine of the RCC when quite frankly, doctrine neither aids nor hurts your hope of salvation unless that doctrine alters what Jesus Himself told us what imputes salvation ..

my personal opinion on the matter is those who shoot darts on non-tenant altering doctrine have a critical spirit .. I question their motives ..
what I do so as to not misjudge a persons motives is to come straight out and ask them what they are ..

God Bless you ..
 
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LysanderShapiro said:
The short answer to that is no. However, there is much more to be said beyond that, because even a Catholic who has received all of his sacraments isn't automatically heaven-bound if he isn't keeping to God's Word.
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And that brings me back to my original point. If what church one belongs to isn't a primary salvation issue, then it must be some other type of issue, and given the rhetoric in the conversations, it looks very much like what I described (pride and tribalism).
 
RiverJordan said:
And that brings me back to my original point. If what church one belongs to isn't a primary salvation issue, then it must be some other type of issue, and given the rhetoric in the conversations, it looks very much like what I described (pride and tribalism).
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it looks more like knee-jerk reaction to me ..
if people become defensive, there is a reason for it ..
 
ixoye_8 said:
brother Paul .. you are correct as we are made alive through the spirit ..
I think many of the RCC denomination have acquired a knee jerk reaction from all the abuse thrown on doctrine of the RCC when quite frankly, doctrine neither aids nor hurts your hope of salvation unless that doctrine alters what Jesus Himself told us what imputes salvation ..

my personal opinion on the matter is those who shoot darts on non-tenant altering doctrine have a critical spirit .. I question their motives ..
what I do so as to not misjudge a persons motives is to come straight out and ask them what they are ..

God Bless you ..
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Interesting you said to ''come out and ask them what they are..." yet so few will actually state of what denomination they are, i see myself and others who are Catholic that we have no compunction in stating to be Roman Catholics... we should have a post asking that question, what church or religious affiliations one has...
 
RiverJordan said:
And that brings me back to my original point. If what church one belongs to isn't a primary salvation issue, then it must be some other type of issue, and given the rhetoric in the conversations, it looks very much like what I described (pride and tribalism).
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It's not as trivial as that. I gave a pretty simple answer, so for that I'll have to apologize, but the truth is no one knows what's truly in our hearts other than God. One's good deeds, even if he is a Christian, is evaluated by Christ, and its purest form of doing good is when we are doing it not counting the cost or of our own self-pride, but out of obedience and in God's love.

If the sacraments are valid, then it should be important to partake in them due to our love of God and our wanting to be obedient. However, if it becomes a case of "Well, it's all good, so God wouldn't mind," then it can become damaging to one's soul as it shows apathy.

The subject of heaven, hell, and purgatory (a controversial subject in this forum) are not fully understood by any of us. We don't know how many people are in each place and what it is fully like.
 
RosaVera said:
Lysander i know you understand the reverence we have in mass when the Eucharist is being given to all of us in the form of the communion bread and wine, the incense is burned and singing from the choir, it all becomes one holy and incredible moment going up and receiving it both... there is a feeling afterward as the 'Hostia' and the wine are in our mouth as if a cleansing is traveling down and getting rid of the sin... a sense of uplifting and release is felt, and it all just seems to come together, the volunteers on the altar, the priest praying and handling so very carefully the chalice of wine and the bowl with the Host in it ... the communion of all of us in the church singing and praying to our God together in one voice is as close to God as one can be in that moment.

Not to say that what each of us does in private praying is of anyway less, but being in the company of so many as our Lord Christ did when He went regularly to the synagogue is wonderful...

Our Lord Jesus did not do away with the sacraments, He gave us the sacrament of the bread and wine the commnunion for all of us to share and to do in His name...
Click to expand...

I will admit, and I'm not saying this in some sort of jingoistic way or being arrogant, but I visited my family's church (which is a protestant one), and is the same one I used to attend when I was much younger. Returning there as a Catholic, it felt incredibly empty inside as if something extremely important was missing.

I have no doubt it was Christ through the Eucharist.
 
RosaVera said:
Interesting you said to ''come out and ask them what they are..." yet so few will actually state of what denomination they are, i see myself and others who are Catholic that we have no compunction in stating to be Roman Catholics... we should have a post asking that question, what church or religious affiliations one has...
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and I am of no denomination so I have no dog in the fight unless I see brethren with critical spirits .. then I speak out because they are disobeying the teachings of Christ ..
 
LysanderShapiro said:
It's not as trivial as that. I gave a pretty simple answer, so for that I'll have to apologize, but the truth is no one knows what's truly in our hearts other than God. One's good deeds, even if he is a Christian, is evaluated by Christ, and its purest form of doing good is when we are doing it not counting the cost or of our own self-pride, but out of obedience and in God's love.

If the sacraments are valid, then it should be important to partake in them due to our love of God and our wanting to be obedient. However, if it becomes a case of "Well, it's all good, so God wouldn't mind," then it can become damaging to one's soul as it shows apathy.

The subject of heaven, hell, and purgatory (a controversial subject in this forum) are not fully understood by any of us. We don't know how many people are in each place and what it is fully like.
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You seem to be making my point for me. If no one really knows, it's not fully understood by anyone, and only God knows our hearts, then the debate over which church is the "true church" or "first church" is exactly as I described.
 
RiverJordan said:
You seem to be making my point for me. If no one really knows, it's not fully understood by anyone, and only God knows our hearts, then the debate over which church is the "true church" or "first church" is exactly as I described.
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actually the NT and secular writings of the time called it "the way" .. the secular writings also called it a cult, giving validity of establishment as well ..
 
RiverJordan said:
You seem to be making my point for me. If no one really knows, it's not fully understood by anyone, and only God knows our hearts, then the debate over which church is the "true church" or "first church" is exactly as I described.
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I suspect there are plenty of people that do debate this just out of pride. However, if one comes to reason that one specific Church IS the true Church, and this means embracing all of its teachings and translations of scripture, then it becomes incredibly important to 1) tell people about this, 2) defend it when necessary, and most importantly, 3) practice it with every shred of faith one has.

If I were to come to this faith, knowing these things, but then shrugging and saying "But who cares? God will do the rest," then I have taken a position of apathy and discarded the responsibility given me.

I recommend doing extensive research, finding some excellent theologians on this subject, and even schedule an appointment with your local diocese for a full answer. I can only answer from a layman's position.
 
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