First Church?

[LysanderShapiro]

God was before any pagan, and in the New Testament we get the name God wants us to use Jesus, because he saw that the word god was to much of a loosely used name, he wanted it define from all others, also the pagans stole the word god from God, Jesus wants nothing in our way to worship him, including saints statues idols objects nature of any thing else just him, judgement has not come yet, so to say these saints that are the saints of God can do nothing, have not been judged know one has dead or living. Is not the catholic church about ready to make someone a saint in there own eyes, is that not taking the authority of God away, who is to say that God sees this person as a saint. Jesus know who is written in the Book of Life, but everyone is waiting for the resurrection of the church, has not happened yet or I am in trouble.

That goes without saying. I'd even go further in saying God name came before anything as He simply always just has been and never came into existence...though I know what you meant and I'm sure you'd agree with me, too.

We're getting into semantics -- the point I was addressing was the Chritinized terms and traditions that had pagan origins. But just because it had pagan origins doesn't mean the practices when done in glory to God becomes paganism, provided He's the focus of worship. You are right in saying Christ wants nothing in our way of worshiping Him, whether that be saints, friends, our selves, and especially idols as that would go even further in rejecting Him altogether in a really bad way.

No, the Catholic Church can't simply "make a saint" as only God can make saints. Though the Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can proclaim what God has done with an individual. If the Church could just "make it so," then I suspect people like Mother Therese or Pope JP II would have been canonized as saints by now because of how much they are recognized in their service to God...but the process isn't just a matter at looking at their lives and saying "YEP--they were true Christians and did good!" If often requires a series of miracles linked with the individuals, and the miracles have to be evaluated extremely closely. This is why so many of the alleged "miracles" that have been brought out by the media haven't been confirmed. Some are still being reviewed after 30 or 40 years. If its unclear, then it often can't get confirmed as it would be a risk of undermining God's authority.

Did you want to get back to the discussion of Father since that wasn't really cleared up yet, or would you prefer to let it rest?

 

[Michael B]

That goes without saying. I'd even go further in saying God name came before anything as He simply always just has been and never came into existence...though I know what you meant and I'm sure you'd agree with me, too.

We're getting into semantics -- the point I was addressing was the Chritinized terms and traditions that had pagan origins. But just because it had pagan origins doesn't mean the practices when done in glory to God becomes paganism, provided He's the focus of worship. You are right in saying Christ wants nothing in our way of worshiping Him, whether that be saints, friends, our selves, and especially idols as that would go even further in rejecting Him altogether in a really bad way.

No, the Catholic Church can't simply "make a saint" as only God can make saints. Though the Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, can proclaim what God has done with an individual. If the Church could just "make it so," then I suspect people like Mother Therese or Pope JP II would have been canonized as saints by now because of how much they are recognized in their service to God...but the process isn't just a matter at looking at their lives and saying "YEP--they were true Christians and did good!" If often requires a series of miracles linked with the individuals, and the miracles have to be evaluated extremely closely. This is why so many of the alleged "miracles" that have been brought out by the media haven't been confirmed. Some are still being reviewed after 30 or 40 years. If its unclear, then it often can't get confirmed as it would be a risk of undermining God's authority.

Did you want to get back to the discussion of Father since that wasn't really cleared up yet, or would you prefer to let it rest?

Lets get back to the discussion of the father in a few days, I want to go back and do a little bit of studying if thats ok, do some research, a little bit of praying on the subject, does that sound good to you come back with some clear minds on the issue, and we will address it in two to three days.

 

[Ricko1]

Just like it's more difficult for an adult to pick up a language than a baby, it's more difficult to understand a religion when you have a sort of foundation elsewhere. This was the case for me, that's for sure.

The reason why Christian Rome is no longer Pagan Rome is because it embraces the same church discussed in the scriptures and even by the early Church father, like Ignatius of Antioch, Athanasius, Polycarp -- these were incredible men of Christ, post scriptures.

I think if Christians are concerned about the adaptions of certain things, even if they aren't practiced in the pagan sense, then there's a lot that Christians need to look at. For instance, Easter perhaps shouldn't be celebrated, God may need a new title since "God" was also a title Pagans used for their own gods, Christian symbols like the cross and the fish -- though just because they had been born pagan doesn't mean they remained Pagan. Easter became the celebration of Christ's resurrection, the title of God is addressing the true God, and the Christian symbols are now images of faith and hope.

Catholics don't assume that the Bible is infallible. In fact, Catholics address the Bible as infallible in multiple sources, from the Council of Trent to the Catechism (I'll look for which paragraph states this) and even to the Apostle's Creed. However, Church interpretation is a big part of the scriptures, and it's because misinterpretations has lead to heresies and chaos. The Church doesn't want to keep people from reading the Bible -- the Church promotes it in fact, BUT it does have apostolic authority in providing an infallible interpretation, and this authority coming from God.

From what you read about Constantine isn't true -- though it is one of the many rumors about him. One rumor is that he DID convert early, but began beheading anyone who wasn't a Christian. Another rumor is that he wanted to make the pope and emperor synonymous as one.

I had to do a lot of studying and speak with multiple priests and protestant pastors to figure out the truth. I knew simply reading sources online could only go so far, and I'd run the risk of getting bad info. Living in DC, I had the opportunity to visit the friary at Catholic University of America and speak with some jesuits, as well as speaking with some well-respected pastors who are friends of my family (two having their PhDs in theology and Christian studies).

It takes effort and a sense of humility because it means being willing to admit being wrong...and I was wrong for 25 years.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Lets get back to the discussion of the father in a few days, I want to go back and do a little bit of studying if thats ok, do some research, a little bit of praying on the subject, does that sound good to you come back with some clear minds on the issue, and we will address it in two to three days.

I like that idea

 

[Ricko1]

Wanted to jump in here if I may. All one needs to do to see if they are following the exact original church teachings is to First go and start with the Book of Acts. Chapters One and Two tells us how the Apostles obeyed what Jesus commanded them to do before he assended back to heaven.
( Luke 24 v 44-49) notice in verse 49 Jesus tells them to await in Jerusalem " Until you be ended with power from on high" ( The Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit)

120 were in the upper room to hear the first Christian Church message, delivered by Apostle Peter. In Acts 2 v 37 after Peter finished his message to the potential converts they asked " Men and Brethren , what shall we do"? Here is verbatim what Peter told them what they must do to become real Christians and be in the Body of Christ ( The Church)

verse 38 " Then Peter said unto them (1) Repent (2) And be baptized EVERYONE of you in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST (3) For the remission of sins (4) And YOU SHALL receive the Gift of the HOLY GHOST".

4 things he stated a person must do to become a true Christian and Child of Christ.

Sooooo who changed this given formula?
Apostle Paul warned the Church about wolves in sheep' s clothing not sparing the flock ( Acts 16 verses 25-31). This should really not surprise or shock any Bible believing child of Jesus.

The first lie recorded is from Ole Satan himself.....Genesis 3 v 1 " Yea, Hath God Said"? when he cast doubt on what God had warned Adam not to ever do...about.eating from the Tree of Good and Evil. Eve fell for the doubt of God' s words, and had her ears tickled by Satan' s promise of being like gods, and as wise as God. She fell for it..Hook...Line...and Sinker.

And so Thousands upon Thousands of years later; People have listened to Satan about this really does' not mean this or really mean that.....and Viola!! We have hundreds maybe thousands of various.Religions, Denominations, Faiths, and Cults all claiming to have the truth, or the right stairway to heaven or wherever they teach they will go after they.die.

Brothers and Sisters it is past time to teach ourselves and others to just stick with the book and nothing else. If Jesus wanted us to beleive, and do anything outside his Holy and truthful word he would have instructed the Apostles to teach.and record it. Why would God.Himself want to hide from us his true desires?. Before I accept any doctrine or tetching by whoever...I check my Bible first, Last, and Always.

Wanting to go to heaven and live with Jesus takes dedication and patience. We have his promises..let us just obey all his teachings and that of his Apostles in his Original and Holy Church. Thank You everybody...God Bless!!

 

[Ricko1]

ON? What the first Church was or the Catholic church being first?

I can cover both.

We categorize denominations by sets of belief's and religious practices. For example in 1914 the doctrine of Oneness came to being defining God not as 3 that make 1 but 1 that manifest in 3. Hence the Apostolic denomination was born. Later they adopted other religious ideas and rules, but the Oneness belief is what caused the separation from other Pentecostals.

So by system we can trace them back.

The Catholic system is no different.

Praying to Mary came about in 1090AD (About over a 1,000 years since John Penned the book of Revelation) something that defines and a major part of the Roman Catholic system. So if Cathloics always been around then praying to Mary had been around and mentioned as it's a Major prayer for the Catholic system. It's never mentioned once in scripture. Beads were later introduced in 1200AD about that.

So there is Zero proof that the Catholic system was even thought of during the first Church in Acts. Catholics who are Christians say there were Christians and hence must have been Catholic's since Acts but that Logic is flawed. I could just as easy say there was Word of Faith Healing first and the Word of Faith church was first since they believe in God's will to heal using that logic.

Churches:
ekklēsia Meaning a gathering or assembly for a meeting either Jewish and later Christian is the closest Word we have to our understanding of what Church is. In Fact the English Word Church means a building of some type, the Greek Word did not denote any building but a meeting of people.

Being a Female noun it also could not denote the type of gathering or the purpose of the gathering. It just means a gathering of people.

So, the first Church would have been defined in the Book of Acts. No denomination is ever mentioned but we are told to be of the same mind and to love one another.

The first Church was in Acts, all other denomination Churches base theirs on that work started, some more loosely than others.

 

[Ricko1]

You are 100% correct. No name of this church, just guidelines to observe and follow.
In that simple church...no Apostle ever Water Baptized a child or a baby. It never happened in the first century church. No person was ever Water Baptized in the titles of " Father, Son, and Holy Ghost". This is just two of many differences one can discover by reading the entire book of Acts...and The Epistles written by The Apostles and not a Johnny- come-lately preacher who came after the First Century founded only Church.

 

[Abdicate]

SweetPea: Welcome

Forgive me if I sound philosophical, but I like to be thorough. Your question requires one to ask the question that Pilate asked of Jesus, "What is truth?" You can have historical truth to answer your question, or you could have man's truth, and then there's God's truth. The dictionary definition of church is:

a building designed for public forms of worship

In the scriptures, Jesus was the first to use the word ἐκκλησία (ekklesia) and it means a called out assembly of citizens. So scripturally speaking the first church was Jesus and the 12 disciples because He called them out to follow Him. The different denominations, of which there are over 40,000 under the name Christian, stem from personal wants, self-interpretations, and the effects of seeking for glory or power over others. This is why when Jesus returns and many say "Lord, Lord" He'll reply:

Luke 13:27 (KJV) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

I hope this answers your question. God Bless!

 

[Ricko1]

SweetPea: Welcome

Forgive me if I sound philosophical, but I like to be thorough. Your question requires one to ask the question that Pilate asked of Jesus, "What is truth?" You can have historical truth to answer your question, or you could have man's truth, and then there's God's truth. The dictionary definition of church is:

In the scriptures, Jesus was the first to use the word ἐκκλησία (ekklesia) and it means a called out assembly of citizens. So scripturally speaking the first church was Jesus and the 12 disciples because He called them out to follow Him. The different denominations, of which there are over 40,000 under the name Christian, stem from personal wants, self-interpretations, and the effects of seeking for glory or power over others. This is why when Jesus returns and many say "Lord, Lord" He'll reply:



I hope this answers your question. God Bless!

 

[Ricko1]

I agree....and when Jesus asks them ( Spiritually speaking) Who among you did what Apostle Peter told the first converts exactly to do in Acts 2 38? How many can honestly raise their hands and glad fully tell him " We did Lord" The Bible teaches us " To obey, is better then Sacrifice" John 4 v 24 also says this: " God is a Spirit; and those that worship him MUST worship him in Spirit and in TRUTH" amen

 

[Michael B]

As with baptism the Bible specifically tells us what to do and under who name and even gives the believer many examples of baptism, only one name that is above all names Jesus Christ.

 

[Ricko1]

Michael B....Amen Brother!!

 

[MichaelH]

If often requires a series of miracles linked with the individuals, and the miracles have to be evaluated extremely closely. This is why so many of the alleged "miracles" that have been brought out by the media haven't been confirmed. Some are still being reviewed after 30 or 40 years. If its unclear, then it often can't get confirmed as it would be a risk of undermining God's authority.

Did you want to get back to the discussion of Father since that wasn't really cleared up yet, or would you prefer to let it rest?

Let me try to make this clear. We know them by their fruit, not miracles. I have laid hands on the sick with amazing results and instant healing. This does not make me special, it just means I believe the Word and step out in faith. This does not make me right with God, it just means God used me because I believed.

God also used a Donkey to save a Prophets life. We don't pray to the talking donkey, and Nobody better pray to me though I have evidence of real so called "Miracles" that every believe should walk in.

Peter said why look at me as if my own holiness made this man whole who stands before you. It had nothing to do with Peter being an Apostle, or Peters walk with God. Peter said it was faith in the name of Jesus that made this man strong and whom you have known.

If this is the method of finding "Real" people of God, then the method is unscriptural and broken. Flee things that practice such nonsense and believe right.

They said, have we not cast out devils in your name, performed miracles. Jesus saying depart from me you workers of iniquity for I know you not. Gifts and callings are without repentance, the Holy Spirit operating through someone is a free gift and does not determine the state of the person or the fruit they bare.

Fruit is determined by character, not miracles, or things God does through the Holy Spirit.
If what you say be the case, then Balaam's Donkey who could speak would also be something to reverence. I'll pass.......

 

[Ricko1]

Preach on Bro.!!

God teaches his own for his own reasons. I also cannot understand what God saw in me. I was a back slid Catholic, Smoker, Drinker, Dope taker, two bad marriages, Party Animal and Womanizer. Then in 1987 it all changed for the better. When I went and heard a message in a Revival Church service 26 and.a half years ago. All those former nasty habits were gone after that. Boom! No more of those self destructive habits and sins...

 

[Michael B]

Preach on Bro.!!

God teaches his own for his own reasons. I also cannot understand what God saw in me. I was a back slid Catholic, Smoker, Drinker, Dope taker, two bad marriages, Party Animal and Womanizer. Then in 1987 it all changed for the better. When I went and heard a message in a Revival Church service 26 and.a half years ago. All those former nasty habits were gone after that. Boom! No more of those self destructive habits and sins...

Amen I changed my life after a woman pulled her car over in front of me and I thought I was going to be changing a flat tire, well what ended up happening was something I was not prepared for at that moment, she told me her son had been missing for two days, and she was driving around looking for him or a crashed car they had missed, we could she from were she parked there was some brush and some trees push backed, I told her I would go down there and see what I could see, I found her son dead and the car he was driving split in half, he was dead for two days, his brain was coming out of his ear, an image that I will never forget, I came back up and told her she new before I even said a word that her son was dead, she was very upset and started walking around all over, then everybody started stopping, and people suggested to cover up the body, so me and a WW2 vet went down there and covered him up, just before this incident I saw another girl stab another girl in the highschool I was going too, then after I found the boy dead I got into a fight with my drug dealer he did not fare to well I am pretty tall and big, this was all in one summer, that February I could not stop thinking of the accident so I quit drinking and using drugs, things got worse for about two years, then started going to church with co-workers and went to a few different churches, not until I found a church in a little town next to the town I now live in did I have relief from all the problems that I brought upon myself, especially the spiritual ones, not until I was fully baptized in the water under the name of Jesus Christ was I able to finally get rid of all those demons that were haunting me, not using that term figuratively, but literally, I still fight against demons and the prince of this world, but now I have the tools and the knowledge and more importantly Jesus Christ on my side, now I fight a battle that I can not see, but I have and advocate that fights for me when I ask thank you Jesus from taking me out of my own miry pit.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Let me try to make this clear. We know them by their fruit, not miracles. I have laid hands on the sick with amazing results and instant healing. This does not make me special, it just means I believe the Word and step out in faith. This does not make me right with God, it just means God used me because I believed.

God also used a Donkey to save a Prophets life. We don't pray to the talking donkey, and Nobody better pray to me though I have evidence of real so called "Miracles" that every believe should walk in.

Peter said why look at me as if my own holiness made this man whole who stands before you. It had nothing to do with Peter being an Apostle, or Peters walk with God. Peter said it was faith in the name of Jesus that made this man strong and whom you have known.

If this is the method of finding "Real" people of God, then the method is unscriptural and broken. Flee things that practice such nonsense and believe right.

They said, have we not cast out devils in your name, performed miracles. Jesus saying depart from me you workers of iniquity for I know you not. Gifts and callings are without repentance, the Holy Spirit operating through someone is a free gift and does not determine the state of the person or the fruit they bare.

Fruit is determined by character, not miracles, or things God does through the Holy Spirit.
If what you say be the case, then Balaam's Donkey who could speak would also be something to reverence. I'll pass.......

Hmmm. With all due respect, you've seemed to misunderstand once again. I agree with most of what you've said, but you seem to have also misinterpreted what I said if you think this goes in contradiction.

 

[Ricko1]

Great and sobering testimony. There is nothing on planet earth worth missing going to heaven over. All the fame and fortune etc is not worth losing eternity with Jesus and the peace of mind and tranquility over....nothing!!

 

[MichaelH]

Hmmm. With all due respect, you've seemed to misunderstand once again. I agree with most of what you've said, but you seem to have also misinterpreted what I said if you think this goes in contradiction.

No, I understood what you said. A mans worth to God is not determined by any Miracles God used the man in. So to even waste time attempting to prove miracles in a persons life is pointless.
There is a teaching that Healing had been done away with the Apostles. That means the apostles had some type of special faith in the name of Jesus we don't have today. It means man is responsible for Miracles and the scripture saying God wrought Miracles by the Hand of Paul is no longer true.

We act on the Word by faith, God honors any man that will believe him not looking at the natural circumstance.

Women and Boy:
Sorry you had to see that. Being a truck driver I have gotten to see things that are also messed up. I don't mind the body parts everywhere, what bothers me is the loss I see a loved one go through and the work of the enemy to bring sorrow and pain.
In the Airforce I was assigned to go with officers to inform a family their loved one died over seas. It was not pleasant and I had nothing with God at that time to bring a Word or comfort.

blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

No, I understood what you said. A mans worth to God is not determined by any Miracles God used the man in. So to even waste time attempting to prove miracles in a persons life is pointless.
There is a teaching that Healing had been done away with the Apostles. That means the apostles had some type of special faith in the name of Jesus we don't have today. It means man is responsible for Miracles and the scripture saying God wrought Miracles by the Hand of Paul is no longer true.

We act on the Word by faith, God honors any man that will believe him not looking at the natural circumstance.

Women and Boy:
Sorry you had to see that. Being a truck driver I have gotten to see things that are also messed up. I don't mind the body parts everywhere, what bothers me is the loss I see a loved one go through and the work of the enemy to bring sorrow and pain.
In the Airforce I was assigned to go with officers to inform a family their loved one died over seas. It was not pleasant and I had nothing with God at that time to bring a Word or comfort.

blessings.

But that's not what it meant. And even the miracle aspect is only the tip of the ice burg. Most of what you said is right, and that's why it doesn't contradict what I said.

 

[MichaelH]

But that's not what it meant. And even the miracle aspect is only the tip of the ice burg. Most of what you said is right, and that's why it doesn't contradict what I said.

If you say so, I suppose......

Blessings.