First Church?

[LysanderShapiro]

The Church (Lets call it a building we all meet, not the actual Greek word) takes it's form according to the Word. This is why you have Baptism and repenting, confessing faults to one another.

Since God by the Holy Spirit gave the Word then there be no other pattern to follow but that of man. Jesus said and prayed that the World believe on their word.......... The 12 Apostles of the Lamb. That finished any authoritative Scripture there.

You and I can't sit down and add to the word and make some changes, the permission for the last was given to the 12 by the Words of Jesus.

The Church which patterns after the Word is what all denominations follow (Well most, some don't anoint the sick with oil that they may be healed, some don't speak in tongues) but what they do have is following the word and can be found in scriptures.

The Catholic Church follows that pattern. So does the Baptist Church and many other churches.

Many Baptist Churches Hold service with a flyer hand out and times things will occur for that Sunday. They call it a program flyer or whatever. That practice is not found in scripture.

The practice in itself might not be bad but it's something added by men.

So you say that you "USE" to hold my position, but we still hold the same position, for my church has the singing first, then the tithe and outreach for disaster victims. All those things are not outlined in scripture, but it's what we do and follow.
WE do things "OUTSIDE" of Scripture but the Church is based on the Word of God.

Same with the Catholic Church. They are based on the scripture but have things not found in scripture.

There is no difference.

Because we can't bring our Churches here then the only proof of anything here would be what is common to both. That is the Word of God.

You can tell me about beads and Mary all day, but Zero scripture to back any of it. Mary being blessed among women does not denote Mary was the only blessed women on the planet (I can show more in the Word) and does not denote beads, hail Mary's or anything of the sort. It was added by Your church much like things are added by any other denomination.

So for me to say My church is more true than yours or to say that Your group is in danger of Hell as opposed to my Group when both Groups Base their Church on Scriptures and Both practice things not found in scripture is not the best way to go. It's a superior attitude and not backed by any scripture. It also attacks Relationship with Jesus and a persons core belief system since they follow a false church not belonging to our "TRUE" church.

if you want to make fun of Word of Faith blab it and grab it, or that prosperity gospel that is fine. I hear that all the time and just like any group there is misunderstandings and not all Word of faith folks teach correctly anyway. Poke fun all you want, not a issue.

Its one thing to poke fun about praying to Mary that does not change your relationship with the Lord and you can't back it with scripture anyway no more than I can back blab it and grab it. It's another level when I say you worship idols and can't be saved. I never said those things or said the Catholic church is false. I give to a Catholic food pantry even and love the people there, I don't doubt they love the Lord and are fully saved despite the prayers to Mary. I don't hand my money over to things I think are false, I just don't agree with some of the practices, but won't deny the Good work in spite of what I agree with.

Scripture is the only common ground we have here. So it has to be scripture only, otherwise it's denomination also and that brings in a whole lot of stuff Besides Word of Faith and Catholic belief's that can take us way off what God ever said. If we allow one, then we allow everything else here.

I am not offended but strong statements have to be backed by Scripture, our only common ground here.

Blessings.

Consider this, Michael...we both know the Church came before the Bible. The Bible is synonymous with the Church, and vice-versa, but it was the Church that brought forth the canon in evaluating which scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which aren't. While Protestants tend to disagree with Catholics on the OT due to the 7 books, both Catholics and Protestants agree on the NT (unless you're Martin Luther of course ), but those who put trust in the NT have also put trust in the Catholic Bishops who have established these as valid, inspired scriptures of God.

We probably both agree that those who add or take away from the Bible are in grave danger spiritually, but this is not the Catholic position as it is misunderstood. However, there is reason as to why Catholics hold a position that it is both the Church AND the Bible (rather than an "either/or" position).

I'm only trying to help in explaining what I think is often misunderstood.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

indeed .. if there was not different interpretations of the word, then there would be one denomination only .. thus scripture alone is not enough .. consider Phillip or Paul explaining the scriptures .. or consider Jesus opening up the minds of the Apostles to what scriptures meant ..

if God thought scripture was enough, then the HS would not need to give the gift of teaching, which is 1st being taught by the spirit ..

That's a good point. Or perhaps it should be said that perhaps it would mean the role of the HS wouldn't quite be so needed today.

 

[MichaelH]

hi Michael .. I thought you might find this interesting ..

it seems the Lutheran Protestant Rosarys are the same as Catholic ones ..
while the Anglican Episcopal Rosarys are smaller ..

Reading all that it was interesting as you suggested. I now avoid these terms of Mary the Queen of Heaven or Mary a false God and idol worship simply because the Catholics I have talked to ....... 100's through the last 15 years........... Pray to Mary because of their perceived standing with Jesus or the Father. In other Words Mary is able to understand better their lack of pure righteousness to go directly to the Father.

I feel bad they believe this way, I don't believe they are knowingly doing wrong.

I have a confession notebook I made way back in 1998. It's not a prayer to God, but faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. I had kept myself full of the Word as possible to help when someone needed help. The disciples could not cast out a devil because of unbelief and that was not going to be my position ever.

I still have the notebook.........

"Sickness or disease can not come near me or family. Through the name of Jesus and faith in His Mighty name, I have authority over sickness and disease in other peoples lives. I have been commanded to lay hands on the sick and they always recover and get well. His name is above all names and everything that has a name. Cancer and all forms of sickness must bow by the Name of Jesus spoken in faith. I am not the healer, but the one that is walks with me and performs his word with signs following. "

This and a whole notebook full of love, hearing the Holy Spirit, obeying is what i would do as repetitions. s

I also had my Ephesians prayer that I know and understand the power to us who BELIEVE according to the Working of His mighty power which he Wrought in Christ when he raised him from the dead.............. That is resurrection Power to restore lost and broken things in a persons life.

These are the things I mediated on.

I pray in tongues, I find my own understanding of situations not good enough and lacking. I also don't know the Will of God to fix things but can only understand naturally what I see and know with the mind. Tongues fixes all that.

I don't understand beads or going to Mary. I Go straight to the Father and ask what is up? Sometimes God speaks to me right away or sometimes he don't. I figure He will let me know when I need it.

Thank you for sharing that thing on the Mary prayer stuff. I don't get it, but it was interesting.

 

[MichaelH]

Consider this, Michael...we both know the Church came before the Bible. The Bible is synonymous with the Church, and vice-versa, but it was the Church that brought forth the canon in evaluating which scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit and which aren't. .

I just more or less said all that above. The church then the scriptures written. The scriptures written to instruct the Church though. Such as Paul long thing about not interrupting service with everyone just speaking in tongues but all things at church must be decent and in order.

The church....... in Acts and 12 Apostles gave us the word and set it in order. All (good) denominations follow all those things.
The Catholic Church follows those things.

It does not change the fact no denomination today can be found in the first Church as all practice the same thing.
There is no "Words are containers of faith" doctrine in scripture and there is No grab some beads and pray to Mary scripture in there.

We added that later.

So then aside from what the 12 Apostles gave us and written which all follow there would be nothing else to consider.

If we were at Mass then we can talk about those prayer beads and such, but we are not at mass and have all kinds of denominations here and the only common truth which is Eternal truth that is in common is scriptures.

If i was a JW (Jehovah Witness) I would tell you that Jesus is just some angel or something. There is no such thing as Trinity (I can give on scripture that does back 3 in 1 though some think it a forgery)

I would tell you that if you don't believe Like I do then your wrong. When it came to proving that to you i would have to grab some Watchtowers and read the proof from articles that had been written.

I hope you would not consider that to be any type of proof though.

blessings.

 

[ixoye_8]

Reading all that it was interesting as you suggested. I now avoid these terms of Mary the Queen of Heaven or Mary a false God and idol worship simply because the Catholics I have talked to ....... 100's through the last 15 years........... Pray to Mary because of their perceived standing with Jesus or the Father. In other Words Mary is able to understand better their lack of pure righteousness to go directly to the Father.

yeah .. Luther really didn't change as much as people thought ..
Ulrich Zwingli did most of that ..

I went through the Hail Mary prayer, and there is NOT ONE THING I see that one could possibly object to other then possibly her not being alive in the flesh, but that still is not explicitly told not to do as far as I know ..
praying for one another is scriptural ..
and people with prayer request often do because they are asking for the "prayer warriors" to help them ..

there is only one mediator (thus no Mediatrix nor is that a doctrine) and only two intercessors (but pray for us does not mean intercede) ..
I also object to the title "Queen of Heaven" by anyone who may use it, and I believe Mary would too ..

Blessings ..

 

[ixoye_8]

this is just my opinion ..
I believe the title "Queen of Heaven" came from these verses ..
(as well as there was a pagan Queen of Heaven, and I think the early church tried to paste Mary over the pagan one to negate it)

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

ok so you see a woman, she has a crown, and about to give birth to a child (Jesus) .. it does appear to sound like they are talking about Mary .. but it is not .. the woman is Israel, and the stars are the 12 tribes ..

Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

ok .. so Jesus ascended .. now it FF to end times ..

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (=3 1/2 years)
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time (1) and (+) times (2) and (+) half a time (1/2), from the presence of the serpent. (=3 1/2 years)
Rev 12:15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

so God protects Israel during the first half of the tribulation ..

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I had a tough time with the title "Queen of Heaven" for awhile too. It felt like to me like it was giving her more credit than she deserved. However, after learning more about the blessed mother AND the role of mothers of Kings of Israel (they are given the title as queen), it is fitting that Mary is the Queen of heaven as she is the mother of God.

Of course, this doesn't mean she is on equal level to Christ or deserves worship. But she is the mother of our Lord.

 

[MichaelH]

this is just my opinion ..
I believe the title "Queen of Heaven" came from these verses ..
(as well as there was a pagan Queen of Heaven, and I think the early church tried to paste Mary over the pagan one to negate it)

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

ok so you see a woman, she has a crown, and about to give birth to a child (Jesus) .. it does appear to sound like they are talking about Mary .. but it is not .. the woman is Israel, and the stars are the 12 tribes ..

Rev 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

ok .. so Jesus ascended .. now it FF to end times ..

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (=3 1/2 years)
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time (1) and (+) times (2) and (+) half a time (1/2), from the presence of the serpent. (=3 1/2 years)
Rev 12:15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

so God protects Israel during the first half of the tribulation ..

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Well, Mary is Jesus momma. A physical Vehicle by which the Word came to pass and made flesh in the womb. Mary stuck by Jesus through the whole thing and was there to the end. That took some bravery.

Aside from that I see no other reason to give Mary any more time, especially prayer time.

REV 12................... I agree the Women is Israel as it's pretty clear, the 12 stars meaning (though could be angles but tribes makes more sense)

I am not a preterist, but I don't place REV 12 into the future. I believe it to be a recap of what happened.

The reason is that Satan Lost his authority on Earth when the New authority arrived. Jesus said if I cast out devils by the power of God, (Holy Spirit) then the Kingdom of God has come unto you.

Jesus said he beheld Satan fall like lightning, then gave us the authority over him saying rejoice not now that the spirits are subject unto but rejoice your name is written in heaven. (Luke 10:18-20)

Rev 12 describes a women whom Satan sent a force against. Herod sent his force through Satan to kill the children and Mary fled into the wilderness to Egypt.

This idea presents a issue of changing Israel to Mary but Jesus came from the tribe of Judah so it might just work. The women Hid and gave birth to a child which fits the time Herod sent out his people to kill the children.

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:8-10)

Several things occurred here........

1) Satan lost his place and cast down. Authority given over him.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

2) Salvation came to all Mankind. Not some time in the future.

3) The Kingdom of God comes with the authority over Satan. (Rev 12:8-10)

Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The kingdom did not come then leave somewhere and is coming back later. Salvation did not go away else we all be in trouble waiting for it to come back later and Jesus saw the devil cast down from authority when the New authority came to Earth for men.

4) The power of the anointing came. The power of Christ, Jesus the anointed one.
Jesus said I am anointed to preach the gospel to heal the blind and so on...... (Luke 40

The Power of Christ (Anointing) did not leave and we are waiting for the power to come back at a future date. If that were the case and the Holy Spirit which made Jesus the Messiah (Christ) is not here no more then we are in trouble.

I believe by many scripture comparisons that REV 12 has already come to pass, otherwise............... we are in bad shape here.

Please NOTE: I am not a Preterist...................... Rev 1-3 and 12 were events told of the past all the rest is yet to come. I can't ignore all the line upon line scripture comparison though as we are told to compare spiritual with spiritual, line upon line and here a little there a little....... Isa 28

Blessings.

 

[Brother David]

We do not understand Protestants either, since their view of Scripture just seems so illogical.

It is not wise to assume that everyone that is not catholic is automatically protestant.

 

[Michael B]

There is only one church and that is Jesus Christ he is the chief corner stone.

Ephesians 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The only reason there is so many denominations is because that evil one the devil wants us to fight among ourselves, so that way we do not see the bigger picture which is salvation of all sinners. It goes into the government with party lines as well, also into races, they are trying to put us up against each other so we do not see the real picture which is Jesus Christ the Almighty. If you ever read Jeremiah 35, God tells Jeremiah to go and get the Rechabites, which are against God and tell them that they listen to there leader, but my people do not listen to me, that is what Jesus is saying to Jeremiah, because Gods people whether Hebrews in the Old Testament, or Christians in the New Testament, we do not stick together that is why the enemy the devil is hitting the Church hard, because we can not stick together, but the evil ones people they stick together and plan things out for centuries. We need to come together, and we will ounce Jesus comes back for his bride. Jesus is the way the truth and the light.

 

[RosaVera]

Catholics do NOT worship Mary as divinity, but , we DO pay homage to her for being chosen out of all other women on earth to be the Blessed Mother for our Lord Jesus the Christ. i doubt that anyone would think that God would just pick any woman just to be 'Jesus momma' ... as a Catholic i must say i find it demeaning to her when she is referred to with such dismissive
'she is just another female' type of mention, as a woman it show contempt not just for her but for all women. We pray to Mary not as divinity but as the one close to Jesus to intervene for us to Him, after all who is closer to Him than her...

Our nation founders which started every session in the House with prayers, yet did not allow Catholics the same freedoms as other Anglicans:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0020.html
"The English colonies were founded at the same time the Church was persecuted in England. Virginia colonists were members of the English Church; in New England the colonists were Calvinists. Catholics were not permitted in these colonies. Catholics were excluded from the Dutch colony in New York and the Swedish settlement of Delaware also. In 1683 James II appointed Thomas Dongan governor of New York and religious liberty was granted to all. The Jesuits built a Catholic chapel in New York City, and established a Latin school there in 1685. By 1700, laws against Catholics were again put into place. Catholics of New York had to travel to Philadelphia as late as the Revolutionary War to participate in Mass and receive the sacraments."

The rosary is a means of getting in the spiritual by praying to our Lord, those that know the Hail Mary know that it is a prayer for help "Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us now and at the end of our death"...

As for her being the 'Queen of Heaven' is there anyone here that doubts that the Blessed Mother is above all other women whether here or in heaven...?

 

[RosaVera]

If all Christians were united in our USA there would not be abortion, nor gay marriage, nor persecution against any denomination... we are so divided that even the devil laughs at us, and we get divided even more just so we do not come together and let those in power we have the power of the vote... it would be great to see us all united for our common cause.

 

[MichaelH]

There is only one church and that is Jesus Christ he is the chief corner stone.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I am not sure which be more accurate to say............ church just means gathering of people in the NT. We look at it as a building and denomination but Church never meant that.

There is only one body? Jesus being the chief cornerstone? In that body be many parts that all function together?

I would suspect other sheep not of our fold might have a different part to do.

The body should not have any parts though that don't like each other for How can a hand tell an eye it's not seeing properly if it be a hand not knowing anything about seeing?

This is why this concept of "true Church" is pretty prideful. That is saying only our part is the best and we don't need eyes to see or ears to hear as we got it all figured out.

There are other denominations that believe this "True church" stuff........ JW's, Apostolic, 7th day Adventist, all believe they are the Real deal and the rest be in error.

If you believe that I have some ocean front property I would like to sell you online located in Illinois.

There is only one church if you will, the body of the Lord Jesus the chief cornerstone.

Good input Michael.

Blessings.

 

[MichaelH]

'she is just another female' type of mention, as a woman it show contempt not just for her but for all women. We pray to Mary not as divinity but as the one close to Jesus to intervene for us to Him, after all who is closer to Him than her...

Intervene means to mediate between.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

You see Mary mentioned in there anywhere Rosa? No, it's Jesus.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

You see Mary mentioned as being a Mediator of the New testament?

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
(Joh 15:16)

Jesus slip up here? Did He really mean to say ask my Mother anything in my name?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (opps forgot Mary again...)
they forgot to Mention Mary here also............ my, my..... have to talk to God about this and have it correct it.......

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I guess they should have Mentioned Mary here also because She understands and can intervene. Jesus can't be touched by the feelings of our infirmities so this scripture must be wrong also...............

Rosa............... You elevating Mary the Mother Of Jesus to a status never mentioned anywhere is very disrespectful to her as she honored the son and would never agree to come between us and him.
Your blatant disrespect for the Eternal Word of God, blindly ignoring many scriptures is also very concerning.

You ramble on with make believe about Mary intervening and I who love the Word of God and have actually taken many years to study the Word of God can promise you there is NOT ONE Scripture that even comes close to proclaiming your crazy ideas of Mary being some Mediator or someone who will intervene.

Whoever sold you on this is teaching false doctrine not backed by any scripture and I hope you pull yourself out and come into the light and start to value the Word of God.

I will be praying for you, Jesus is your only Mediator, he died for you and Paid a price for you. show some respect.

 

[Michael B]

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I am not sure which be more accurate to say............ church just means gathering of people in the NT. We look at it as a building and denomination but Church never meant that.

There is only one body? Jesus being the chief cornerstone? In that body be many parts that all function together?

I would suspect other sheep not of our fold might have a different part to do.

The body should not have any parts though that don't like each other for How can a hand tell an eye it's not seeing properly if it be a hand not knowing anything about seeing?

This is why this concept of "true Church" is pretty prideful. That is saying only our part is the best and we don't need eyes to see or ears to hear as we got it all figured out.

There are other denominations that believe this "True church" stuff........ JW's, Apostolic, 7th day Adventist, all believe they are the Real deal and the rest be in error.

If you believe that I have some ocean front property I would like to sell you online located in Illinois.

There is only one church if you will, the body of the Lord Jesus the chief cornerstone.

Good input Michael.

Blessings.

When Jesus is talking about the other sheep he is talking about the Gentiles, because the sheep that he is talking about are the Hebrews.

When Jesus is also talking about the body, he is talking about the spiritual gifts in the church that make one body, not different denominations.

 

[Michael B]

Catholics do NOT worship Mary as divinity, but , we DO pay homage to her for being chosen out of all other women on earth to be the Blessed Mother for our Lord Jesus the Christ. i doubt that anyone would think that God would just pick any woman just to be 'Jesus momma' ... as a Catholic i must say i find it demeaning to her when she is referred to with such dismissive
'she is just another female' type of mention, as a woman it show contempt not just for her but for all women. We pray to Mary not as divinity but as the one close to Jesus to intervene for us to Him, after all who is closer to Him than her...

Our nation founders which started every session in the House with prayers, yet did not allow Catholics the same freedoms as other Anglicans:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/us/ah0020.html
"The English colonies were founded at the same time the Church was persecuted in England. Virginia colonists were members of the English Church; in New England the colonists were Calvinists. Catholics were not permitted in these colonies. Catholics were excluded from the Dutch colony in New York and the Swedish settlement of Delaware also. In 1683 James II appointed Thomas Dongan governor of New York and religious liberty was granted to all. The Jesuits built a Catholic chapel in New York City, and established a Latin school there in 1685. By 1700, laws against Catholics were again put into place. Catholics of New York had to travel to Philadelphia as late as the Revolutionary War to participate in Mass and receive the sacraments."

The rosary is a means of getting in the spiritual by praying to our Lord, those that know the Hail Mary know that it is a prayer for help "Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us now and at the end of our death"...

As for her being the 'Queen of Heaven' is there anyone here that doubts that the Blessed Mother is above all other women whether here or in heaven...?

The problem with praying to Mary is the dead knoweth not nothing, Mary also had to be there on the day of Pentecost.

Matthew 12:46-50
King James Version (KJV)

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The rosary and the worshipping of the divine mother go all the way back to the babylonian religion, remember rome was a pagan religion, from what I can see rome mixed pagan with Christianity.

 

[MichaelH]

When Jesus is talking about the other sheep he is talking about the Gentiles, because the sheep that he is talking about are the Hebrews.

When Jesus is also talking about the body, he is talking about the spiritual gifts in the church that make one body, not different denominations.

OK then. Your right about the different denominations. I sort of considered his comment about different sheep fold to sort of be the different denomination.

 

[MichaelH]

The problem with praying to Mary is the dead knoweth not nothing, Mary also had to be there on the day of Pentecost.

that is what Ecc says, the Dead have no more part under the sun. It is assumed Mary is in Heaven and is omnipresent so she can field all those Hail Mary's from everyone who is confused on the Earth.

he rosary and the worshipping of the divine mother go all the way back to the babylonian religion, remember rome was a pagan religion, from what I can see rome mixed pagan with Christianity.

That is what Ecc says, the Dead have no more part under the sun. It is assumed Mary is in Heaven and is omnipresent so she can field all those Hail Mary's from everyone who is confused on the Earth.

the Rosary can be traced back to 1090.
The beads were added and made popular by St. Dominic in 1208.

There were 150 hail Mary's to be repeated..............who knows why though.

In 2003 The Pope added a bunch more hail Marys. for a grand total of 200.

hail means to greet or get someones attention. It may be that Catholics think Mary might be hard of hearing or something. I certainly would not want someone standing next to me going..

Hi Mike
Hi Mike
Hi Mike
Hi Mike
Hi Mike
Hi Mike
Hi Mike

It's almost funny if real people were not deceived and practice things to their own hurt.

I find it hard to believe that the Church in Acts the first church would condone such nonsense with no scriptural backing at all. None of the Apostles ever mentioned any prayer to Mary or saying Hi to Mary over and over and over.

Scripture is our anchor to what is true and what is make believe.

Blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

The problem with praying to Mary is the dead knoweth not nothing, Mary also had to be there on the day of Pentecost.

Matthew 12:46-50
King James Version (KJV)

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The rosary and the worshipping of the divine mother go all the way back to the babylonian religion, remember rome was a pagan religion, from what I can see rome mixed pagan with Christianity.

Friend, Catholics do not, I repeat, DO NOT worship Mary -- we honor her, just as we are to honor our parents. No prayer to Mary should EVER bypass God as he is the only one with divine power.

Mary isn't dead. Christians believe that in heaven, we receive everlasting life. The Bible is very clear on that. Are we no longer part of the body in heaven? Of course not. In fact, we are more part of the body than ever in God's Kingdom.

Prayer to Mary is like asking someone to pray for you. She is not a mediator in the way Christ is -- there is only one true mediator. But Catholics love Mary as she is the Mother of Christ and we ask her to intercede in our prayers. Is it wrong to love the mother of God? We are imitating Christ when we do. We aren't loving her MORE than God, because only God deserves worship...but no one has ever been so close to Him as Mary...and that's why we ask her to pray for us.

I get upset when Christians disrespect Mary. Most wouldn't dream of insulting someone else's mother...how wretched to be speaking badly of Jesus' mother. How do you think Jesus feels when that happens?

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Intervene means to mediate between.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

You see Mary mentioned in there anywhere Rosa? No, it's Jesus.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

You see Mary mentioned as being a Mediator of the New testament?

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
(Joh 15:16)

Jesus slip up here? Did He really mean to say ask my Mother anything in my name?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (opps forgot Mary again...)
they forgot to Mention Mary here also............ my, my..... have to talk to God about this and have it correct it.......
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I guess they should have Mentioned Mary here also because She understands and can intervene. Jesus can't be touched by the feelings of our infirmities so this scripture must be wrong also...............

Rosa............... You elevating Mary the Mother Of Jesus to a status never mentioned anywhere is very disrespectful to her as she honored the son and would never agree to come between us and him.
Your blatant disrespect for the Eternal Word of God, blindly ignoring many scriptures is also very concerning.

You ramble on with make believe about Mary intervening and I who love the Word of God and have actually taken many years to study the Word of God can promise you there is NOT ONE Scripture that even comes close to proclaiming your crazy ideas of Mary being some Mediator or someone who will intervene.

Whoever sold you on this is teaching false doctrine not backed by any scripture and I hope you pull yourself out and come into the light and start to value the Word of God.

I will be praying for you, Jesus is your only Mediator, he died for you and Paid a price for you. show some respect.

MichaelH, there is no debate that there is only ONE mediator. That is not what is being disputed, nor has that even been at question. It's clear in 1 Timothy 2:5 that Christ is the only mediator between God and Man.

But, does this mean we are to be divided in Christian community? Are we not to ask others to pray for us? In 1 Timothy 2:1, it says "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people" -- you can't seem to divorce yourself from what Catholicism says, even if you choose to reject it, you are insisting that Catholicism teaches a certain thing when it does not. Catholics hold Mary in honor, but not worship. Catholics ask Mary to pray for us, but we don't pray to her outside of God. Catholics believe in intercession (as do Protestants in fact, as Protestants believe in praying for one another), but we don't believe there can be another way to God outside of Christ.

You have asked me a series of questions recently. You asked about Catholics and Mary, about the Eucharist, about Confession, about Papal authority, about Faith and Works, about Purgatory, and so on and so on and so on...and I answered every single one (except for the question on Holy Water -- I had a simple answer to that, but you deserved a better one that I had on the spot). And you ignored them...you didn't respond. I provided Scriptural references, multiple ones, for each answer. I provided reasoning that a Protestant couldn't deny, because I've been there...and yet...not answer.

I read very carefully your concerns with Catholicism. I respected your concerns. I understood your concerns because I'm not stranger to them, and I answered you because I WANT you to better understand Catholicism. Whether you choose to embrace it or not is another subject, but if you are going to insist on rejecting it, I want you to at least know what you're rejecting, rather than some distorted interpretation of it which you seem to hold. The same Catholic Church you are against is not the same Catholic Church I belong to. It would be as if people reject Christianity altogether because of the Westboro Baptist Church. Would that be fair? Of course not.

I took the time to go through each one of your questions, and I took the time to give a thoughtful, detailed, scripturaly-backed response to each question...the least you can do is respond to the answers. Tell me where you find errors, and with each one. Explain why Mary is just "some woman." Explain how the Eucharist (also known as Communion) is figurative. Explain why Works is irrelevant when it holds hands with Faith. Explain how it's OK for people to interpret the Bible anyway that makes them feel comfortable.

God is a God of order. He is a God of love and mercy and order, not confusion. Would a God allow personal interpretation of His Word? It would be allowing chaos and disorder. Satan is a being of disorder and divide. He wants people to believe they can interpret the Bible as they see fit. He wants them to think they can do it without Church direction. Why? Because it divides the Body and it uses pride as a means.

I am not saying this in attack, nor hostility, nor aggression. You have consistently ignored response after response after response in regards to each of your skewed ideas of Catholicism. In short, you don't understand what Catholicism is. I mean no offense, and it's OK because many of us didn't know at one point...but the least we can do is truly take the time to understand it, that way if you want to fully reject it, you'll know exactly what it is you are rejecting. All I am doing is responding. I am defending the faith against misunderstandings presented. Even IF you were indeed right and I was indeed wrong, would I still at least be acting as a man of integrity by giving a defense for the Catholic wing of Christianity?

MichaelH ... all I ask if for your response to to post #26 ... let me know, and in regards to each subject, why these may be. But moving on from this point, at least provide us the dignity in recognizing what the Catholic Church is and what it is not. It will at the very least allow us to move forward rather than having to explain to you over and over again why what you're saying about Catholic teaching is wrong. Notice, I'm not even making the claim that Catholicism is right -- albeit, I do believe it to be right -- but that's not even where I am going...where I AM going with this is that your interpretation of the Church, is wrong. We both agree that Islam not the true religion, but just because it's the wrong religion doesn't mean I can make up my own facts about it. I recognize what Islam is and reject what Muslims truly believe. The least you could do is recognize what Catholicism is. It is all I ask. You owe it to yourself.