Ecclesiastes 9:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
First Church?
- Thread starter Sweet Pea
- Start date
King James Version (KJV)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
1 Corinthians 15:11-22
King James Version (KJV)
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The Word said only two men were translated to heaven, Enoch the first, and Elijah the second. I know it says Mary is blessed among all woman. The Word never says Mary was translated to heaven.
The catholic church can trace most of what it does now all the way back to Nimrod, the founder of Babylon.
MichaelH, perhaps you don't know what the full Hail Mary prayer is.
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed art thou among women. And blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
This prayer is scriptural. Both Gabriel and Elizabeth said these to Mary in Luke 1, verses 28 and 48. Notice the prayer is in honor of Mary and in worship to Jesus. Almost funny, huh? It's not so funny to those who understand the grace of God and the gift He gave to us.
If you only find it funny because it is said multiple times, then perhaps you should also be laughing at Jesus when he prayed in repetition in Matthew 26:44 or when the Angles prayed in repetition in Revelation 4:8. Are they vain repetition? No, they prayed in persistence. The rosary is not meant to be said in vain repetition, but in persistence, just like Jesus.
It might be funny to you, but it's certainly not funny to me.
"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed art thou among women. And blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
This prayer is scriptural. Both Gabriel and Elizabeth said these to Mary in Luke 1, verses 28 and 48. Notice the prayer is in honor of Mary and in worship to Jesus. Almost funny, huh? It's not so funny to those who understand the grace of God and the gift He gave to us.
If you only find it funny because it is said multiple times, then perhaps you should also be laughing at Jesus when he prayed in repetition in Matthew 26:44 or when the Angles prayed in repetition in Revelation 4:8. Are they vain repetition? No, they prayed in persistence. The rosary is not meant to be said in vain repetition, but in persistence, just like Jesus.
It might be funny to you, but it's certainly not funny to me.
Mystery Babylon the Great
The Babylonian Roots of Catholicism
"And upon her forehead was a name written MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." These words, written by John in Revelation 17:5, are given to describe the woman who is symbolic of the one world church system set up by the Antichrist. The fact that she is of the Antichrist is obvious. First, she is said to be the great whore in verse 1 of chapter 17. The true churches of God are known as the Bride of Christ. "Babylon is designated a harlot because of her unfaithfulness to Christ the bridegroom through her friendship and unholy alliance with the kings and inhabitants of the earth.''(1) Thus, because of the designation of "whore", it is obvious that the woman is a false religious system. Secondly, it is obvious that the system is of Antichrist because of the description of the woman in verse six. She is said to be "drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs." Thus, it is seen that the false religious system of Antichrist has been one that has persecuted the Christians down through the centuries. It is this type of religious system that is called Babylon The Great.
What is meant by the name, Babylon The Great? Some would say that this refers to the city in which this wicked ecclesiastical system shall be errected. However, it should be obvious from verse six that this is not the correct interpretation. The city of Babylon by the Euphrates river has never been drunk with the blood of the saints. In fact, quite contrary, Babylon is nothing more than stones and rubble piled up. It has been completely destroyed, and has not through history lived up to the definition of verse six. Also, it is interesting to note that the inscription on the forehead of the woman referred to MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT. This indicates that the name Babylon should not be taken literally, but rather that it is a secret name which stands for something else.(2) It is commonly believed that the name of Babylon thus refers to the ecclesiastical system of Babylonianism founded in Genesis chapter ten, which has existed in one form or another up until this present age and will continue until the return of Christ.
The religious system known as Babylonianism received its name from the city in which it was founded: Babylon on the plain of Shinar. The founder of this city was Nimrod. Nimrod appears for only a brief time in the Bible. His name is mentioned only in Genesis chapter ten, verses 8-10. Verse eight teaches that Nimrod was begotten "by Cush, and that he was a mighty one in the earth." Verse nine expands to tell that he was a mighty hunter before the Lord. On first glance this description appears innocent enough, but a closer examination will show the true nature of this individual. First of all, the name Nimrod comes from the Hebrew verb"nimrode" which is translated, "let us revolt." This in itself indicates the type of individual that Nimrod was. He is referred to as a "mighty one." This phrase comes from the Hebrew word, "gilor" which means "tyrant." So it becomes evident that Nimrod was not just a powerful man on the earth at that time. Rather he was a tyrannical leader of men. The phrase "a mighty hunter before the Lord" has interesting connotations as well. First of all, it is interesting to question why the hunting exploits of one individual would make the Lord take special notice of him. The Hebrew phrase "liphne yahweh", which can be rendered "in the estimation of Jehovah", carries with it the idea of a superlative, but "a superlative that bears the meaning that even Yahweh was impressed by this hunter's prowess and achievements."(4) There must have been more to Nimrod's hunting than would be evidenced in the life of any other hunter. Secondly, the word translated "before" in Genesis 10:9 carries with it a hostile meaning, and could probably be translated "against". Putting this all together, it becomes plain that it was not wild beasts that Nimrod was hunting, but men. Having hunted them he would enslave them and have a tyranical hold over them. And all this was done in direct opposition to the Lord. The Jewish Encyclopedia sums up the life of Nimrod by referring to him as "he who made all the people rebellious against God."(5)
The Bible teaches that the beginning of the Kingdom of Nimrod was at Babel, or in other words, Babylon. The wickedness of Babylon is evidenced by the story of the tower of Babel, which is related in Genesis chapter eleven. The people of Babel determined that they would build a huge tower in their city in direct defiance to God. They were in defiance toward God because they did not want to be scattered across the face of the earth as God had commanded Noah and his descendants in Genesis 9:1. In order to avoid this, they wanted to build this tower that would make a name for them. They felt that this would help to bind them together and keep them from scattering. But all this was in disobedience to God. God forced them to do His will by confounding their language and forcing them to disperse and try to regroup according to a common tongue. But this small incident is very indicative of the people who followed after Nimrod in his rebellion against God.
Following the death of Nimrod, his heathen form of worship was continued by his wife, Queen Semiramis. She claimed that her husband had become the Sun god, and was to be worshipped. Some time after this, Queen Semiramis conceived through adultery and gave birth to an illegitimate son whom she named Tammuz. It is interesting to note here that Ezekial 8:14 records the incident of women weeping in lamentation for Tammuz. The prophet is told that he will someday see greater abominations than this one, which indicates that even sorrow for Tammuz was wicked and idolatry. Upon the birth of Tammuz, Semiramis declared that he was actually Nimrod reborn. In addition to this, she also claimed that her son was supernaturally conceived. Now Semiramis undoubtedly knew of God's promise of a Redeemer. Satan used her knowledge of this to enduce her to set up a counterfeit plan of God's redemption by having her claim that Tammuz was to be the saviour of the world.(6) However, even though Semiramis claimed to have given birth to a saviour, it was she that was worshipped, not the son. She was worshipped as the mother of the gods.(7) So from this point on the principle role of the woman as opposed to the Son is seen.
Many different ideas from the Babylonian religion have come down through the generations. Probably the key doctrine is that of the mother-son relationship. As the Babylonian people were scattered throughout the world, they took with them the idea that Semiramis had miraculously conceived and given birth to Nimrod reincarnated. Thus, all through the world, men began to worship a divine mother and god-child, long before the birth of Christ. The woman appears in different ways, and is called by different names, but she is always the same person. The Chinese called her Shingmoo. The Germans worshipped Hertha. The Scandanavians worshipped Sisa. In India, she was known as Indrani.(8) But the woman was really Semiramis, the queen of Babylon. Even Israel, when it fell into apostasy, worshipped Ashteroth, who was known to the Jews as the "queen of Heaven" as told in Jeremiah 44:17-19. The spread of this doctrine was great at the time of Christ.
The worship of the Great Mother,.. was very popular under the Roman Empire. Inscriptions prove that the two (the mother and the child) received divine honors... not only in Italy and especially in Rome, but also in the providences, particularly in Africa, Spain, Portugal, France, Germany and Bulgaria.(9)
So it is apparent that the whole world was aware of, and probably worshipped the Mother-Son relationship.
It was into this time period that Christ was born. As He accomplished His ministry, and as the apostles went out and started churches, the Word of God spread throughout the world. However, as the centuries passed, many of these churches fell into apostasy. Paganism began mingling with "Christianity". Constantine professed to become a Christian and began to push Christianity on the pagans; not by conversion, but simply by letting them join. Many of these pagans who joined the "church" brought with them their beliefs about the Great Mother. They had grown up with this belief so long that they did not want to give it up. So the "church" compromised. Rather than force the pagans to give up the Babylonian idea of the Great Mother, they decided (in order to increase their numbers) to adopt this belief into the church. Mary, the mother of Jesus, became the Great Mother to the pagans. This satisfied both sides. The "Christians" were happy because the pagans were "worshipping" the Christian God. The pagans were happy because they had their Great Mother to worship. Thus, little by little, the worship of Mary worked its way into the "church" which is known today as the Catholic Church.
There are other similarities which show that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is an offshoot of Babylonianism. In his deified form, Ninrod the Sun god is known as Baal. Semiramis, as the female divinity, would be called Baalti. This word translated into English means "My Lady." In Latin it would be translated "Mea Domina". This name becomes the name "Madonna" which is the name by which Mary is often referred. The same reasoning can be applied to the name of "Mediatrix", which Mary is also called. Since the Bible teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that One being Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5), it is obvious that Mary did not receive that title in a Biblical way. She instead acquired it from "Mylitta" (mediatrix) which was one of the names of the Mother Goddess of Babylon.(10) "The Queen of Heaven" is another name for Mary that has been adopted from the pagan Babylonian religions. Thus it is obvious that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is nothing more than the ancient Babylonianism dressed up in Christian terminology.
Babylonianism has been passed down through the ages in the form of symbolism also. The Babylonians were very symbolic in everything they did, and these symbols of worship can still be seen today. One of these religious symbols is the rosary. This article is not an invention of the papacy, but has been around since the earliest times and is almost universally found in the pagan nations.(11) It was used as a sacred instrument by the Mexicans and it is repeatedly referred to in the Hindu holy books. In fact, images of the goddess Diana show her to be wearing rosary beads. So this Catholic ritual holds its origin in the pagan religions which stemmed from Babylon.
A second symbol of importance within Babylonian religion is the obelisk or tower. The obelisks were found all throughout the areas of Babylon and Egypt. Often these obelisks have been transported to places of high esteem, such as the entry to Saint Peter's Cathedral in Rome. In Babylonian religion, these obelisks served two purposes in worship. First of all, they were associated with Sun worship. They pointed to the sun in a form of homage to it as the great life giver. Yet these monuments also stood as sexual symbols. They were representative of the phallus which, along with the sun, was considered to be a symbol of life. So these obelisks were really a combination of sex and sun worship.(l2) When Israel backslid, they errected these at the entry to the temple in defiance against God (Ezekiel 8:5). This makes it very interesting when it is shown that such an abolisk does sit at the entrance to Saint Peter's. It is also interesting to note that when the obelisk was to be errected at Saint Peter's, the Pope attached the Death Penalty to the workers should the monument be broken.(l3) Obviously, much importance must be placed on this pagan monument by the Catholics. This is another example of how Babylonian paganism has continued down until this time.
Another doctrine of Babylonianism which has been carried on till today is that of the celibacy of the priesthood. This practice started with Queen Semiramis. This practice quickly spread throughout the pagan world. It finally arrived in Rome through the worship of the Babylonian goddess Cybele.(l4) This practice has been continued down through the years in the Catholic church. Going along with the oath of celibacy was the priestly tonsure. A tonsure is the shaving or clipping of a round spot on the head of priests at their ordination. This practice was a carry over from the ordination of the priests of Bacclus, which is another name for the illegitimate son of Queen Semiramis. So even this mark which priests receive as an initiatory rite has its origins in the pagan religions of Babylon.
One final area which will be discussed is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. The first real evidence of this doctrine in Catholocism occurred when Pope Gregory the Great claimed the existence of a third state, one different than Heaven and Hell. The idea was not officially adopted into Catholic dogma until the Council of Florence in 1459. From that point on, the Catholic church has freely taught the concept of purgatory as a purification place for souls. However, this doctrine was in effect long before the time of Gregory the Great. In the 4th Century B.C., Plato spoke of certain teachers of his day who believed in purgatory. Buddhism, Stoicism, and the Moslim also believed in a place of purification where souls must go before they can attain Heaven. These beliefs have their root in Babylon. The most probable source is that of the worship of Molech. Many pagan nations felt that fire was necessary to cleanse from sin. This is probably because they were worshippers of the sun god, and his power on earth was represented by fire. This was evidenced in the worship of Molech, as young infants were made human sacrifices and burned in the arms of the idol. God made special mention of Molech and forbid his worship in II Kings 23:10 and Leviticus 18:21. In fact, Molech is simply another name for Nimrod. The name Tammuz sheds light on this as well. ''Tam" means "perfect"; "Muz" means "by burning". (15) This shows that the idea of purification by fire has its roots in the Babylonian worship of Nimrod.
From the time of Nimrod until the present there has always been a false religious system in operation. This system has its life in Babylonian religion. This religion is evidenced today in the Catholic church. The Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry has its roots in the divine mother-child relationship of Queen Semiramis and her illegitimate son Tammuz. The symbol of the rosary has its beginnings in Babylon. The obelisk as a monument is a symbol of Babylonian sun and sex worship. The initiation rites of priests are the same as those for the priests of Babylon. Even the doctrine of purgatory directly coincides with the Babylonian practice. Many other examples could be cited. But even these few are more than sufficient to show that the Catholic church is not a "Christian" religion. It is nothing more than a copy of the pagan religions of Babylon. It is the religious system symbolized as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT in Revelation 17:5, and it will someday be destroyed as Christ in His glory returns to earth to set up His kingdom.
Mystery Babylon the Great
The Babylonian Roots of Catholicism
By Pastor Mark Montgomery
Ambassador Baptist Church
4552 McKnight Rd
Pittsburgh, PA 15237
412-931-0800
http://www.hisservice.com/helm/wri/mont/babylon.htm
It was into this time period that Christ was born. As He accomplished His ministry, and as the apostles went out and started churches, the Word of God spread throughout the world. However, as the centuries passed, many of these churches fell into apostasy. Paganism began mingling with "Christianity". Constantine professed to become a Christian and began to push Christianity on the pagans; not by conversion, but simply by letting them join. Many of these pagans who joined the "church" brought with them their beliefs about the Great Mother. They had grown up with this belief so long that they did not want to give it up. So the "church" compromised. Rather than force the pagans to give up the Babylonian idea of the Great Mother, they decided (in order to increase their numbers) to adopt this belief into the church. Mary, the mother of Jesus, became the Great Mother to the pagans. This satisfied both sides. The "Christians" were happy because the pagans were "worshipping" the Christian God. The pagans were happy because they had their Great Mother to worship. Thus, little by little, the worship of Mary worked its way into the "church" which is known today as the Catholic Church.
There are other similarities which show that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is an offshoot of Babylonianism. In his deified form, Ninrod the Sun god is known as Baal. Semiramis, as the female divinity, would be called Baalti. This word translated into English means "My Lady." In Latin it would be translated "Mea Domina". This name becomes the name "Madonna" which is the name by which Mary is often referred. The same reasoning can be applied to the name of "Mediatrix", which Mary is also called. Since the Bible teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that One being Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5), it is obvious that Mary did not receive that title in a Biblical way. She instead acquired it from "Mylitta" (mediatrix) which was one of the names of the Mother Goddess of Babylon.(10) "The Queen of Heaven" is another name for Mary that has been adopted from the pagan Babylonian religions. Thus it is obvious that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is nothing more than the ancient Babylonianism dressed up in Christian terminology.
Babylonianism has been passed down through the ages in the form of symbolism also. The Babylonians were very symbolic in everything they did, and these symbols of worship can still be seen today. One of these religious symbols is the rosary. This article is not an invention of the papacy, but has been around since the earliest times and is almost universally found in the pagan nations.(11) It was used as a sacred instrument by the Mexicans and it is repeatedly referred to in the Hindu holy books. In fact, images of the goddess Diana show her to be wearing rosary beads. So this Catholic ritual holds its origin in the pagan religions which stemmed from Babylon.
A second symbol of importance within Babylonian religion is the obelisk or tower. The obelisks were found all throughout the areas of Babylon and Egypt. Often these obelisks have been transported to places of high esteem, such as the entry to Saint Peter's Cathedral in Rome. In Babylonian religion, these obelisks served two purposes in worship. First of all, they were associated with Sun worship. They pointed to the sun in a form of homage to it as the great life giver. Yet these monuments also stood as sexual symbols. They were representative of the phallus which, along with the sun, was considered to be a symbol of life. So these obelisks were really a combination of sex and sun worship.(l2) When Israel backslid, they errected these at the entry to the temple in defiance against God (Ezekiel 8:5). This makes it very interesting when it is shown that such an abolisk does sit at the entrance to Saint Peter's. It is also interesting to note that when the obelisk was to be errected at Saint Peter's, the Pope attached the Death Penalty to the workers should the monument be broken.(l3) Obviously, much importance must be placed on this pagan monument by the Catholics. This is another example of how Babylonian paganism has continued down until this time.
Another doctrine of Babylonianism which has been carried on till today is that of the celibacy of the priesthood. This practice started with Queen Semiramis. This practice quickly spread throughout the pagan world. It finally arrived in Rome through the worship of the Babylonian goddess Cybele.(l4) This practice has been continued down through the years in the Catholic church. Going along with the oath of celibacy was the priestly tonsure. A tonsure is the shaving or clipping of a round spot on the head of priests at their ordination. This practice was a carry over from the ordination of the priests of Bacclus, which is another name for the illegitimate son of Queen Semiramis. So even this mark which priests receive as an initiatory rite has its origins in the pagan religions of Babylon.
One final area which will be discussed is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. The first real evidence of this doctrine in Catholocism occurred when Pope Gregory the Great claimed the existence of a third state, one different than Heaven and Hell. The idea was not officially adopted into Catholic dogma until the Council of Florence in 1459. From that point on, the Catholic church has freely taught the concept of purgatory as a purification place for souls. However, this doctrine was in effect long before the time of Gregory the Great. In the 4th Century B.C., Plato spoke of certain teachers of his day who believed in purgatory. Buddhism, Stoicism, and the Moslim also believed in a place of purification where souls must go before they can attain Heaven. These beliefs have their root in Babylon. The most probable source is that of the worship of Molech. Many pagan nations felt that fire was necessary to cleanse from sin. This is probably because they were worshippers of the sun god, and his power on earth was represented by fire. This was evidenced in the worship of Molech, as young infants were made human sacrifices and burned in the arms of the idol. God made special mention of Molech and forbid his worship in II Kings 23:10 and Leviticus 18:21. In fact, Molech is simply another name for Nimrod. The name Tammuz sheds light on this as well. ''Tam" means "perfect"; "Muz" means "by burning". (15) This shows that the idea of purification by fire has its roots in the Babylonian worship of Nimrod.
From the time of Nimrod until the present there has always been a false religious system in operation. This system has its life in Babylonian religion. This religion is evidenced today in the Catholic church. The Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry has its roots in the divine mother-child relationship of Queen Semiramis and her illegitimate son Tammuz. The symbol of the rosary has its beginnings in Babylon. The obelisk as a monument is a symbol of Babylonian sun and sex worship. The initiation rites of priests are the same as those for the priests of Babylon. Even the doctrine of purgatory directly coincides with the Babylonian practice. Many other examples could be cited. But even these few are more than sufficient to show that the Catholic church is not a "Christian" religion. It is nothing more than a copy of the pagan religions of Babylon. It is the religious system symbolized as MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT in Revelation 17:5, and it will someday be destroyed as Christ in His glory returns to earth to set up His kingdom.
Mystery Babylon the Great
The Babylonian Roots of Catholicism
By Pastor Mark Montgomery
Ambassador Baptist Church
4552 McKnight Rd
Pittsburgh, PA 15237
412-931-0800
http://www.hisservice.com/helm/wri/mont/babylon.htm
(1)J. B. Smith, A Revelation of Jesus Christ (Scottdale: Herald Press, 1961), p. 240.
(2) Ibid., p. 242.
(3)H. C . LeuPold, Exposition of Genesis (Grand Rapids: Baker Book Ilouse, 1965), p. 366.
(4) Ibid., pp. 366-367.
(5) Ralph Woodrow. Babylon Mystery Religion (Riverside: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Associaton, Inc., 1966), p. 9.
(6) Ibid., p. 10.
(7) Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (Neptune: Loizeaux Brothers, 1916), p. 5.
(8) Woodrow, op. cit., p. 14.
(9) Ibid., p. 15.
(10) Ibid., p. 18.
(11) Hislop, op. cit., p. 187.
(12) Woodrow, op. cit., p. 39.
(13) Ibid., p. 42.
(14) Hislop, p. 220.
(15) Woodrow. P. 73.
(2) Ibid., p. 242.
(3)H. C . LeuPold, Exposition of Genesis (Grand Rapids: Baker Book Ilouse, 1965), p. 366.
(4) Ibid., pp. 366-367.
(5) Ralph Woodrow. Babylon Mystery Religion (Riverside: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Associaton, Inc., 1966), p. 9.
(6) Ibid., p. 10.
(7) Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons (Neptune: Loizeaux Brothers, 1916), p. 5.
(8) Woodrow, op. cit., p. 14.
(9) Ibid., p. 15.
(10) Ibid., p. 18.
(11) Hislop, op. cit., p. 187.
(12) Woodrow, op. cit., p. 39.
(13) Ibid., p. 42.
(14) Hislop, p. 220.
(15) Woodrow. P. 73.
Bibliography
Hislop, Alexander. The Two Babylons. Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1916
Leupold, H. E. Exposition of Genesis. Grand Rapids: Baker Book Houes, 1965.
Smith, J. B. A Revelation of Jesus Christ. Scottdale: Herald Press, 1961.
Woodrow, Ralph. Babylon Mystery Religion. Riverside Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, Inc., 1966.
—— END OF ARTICLE ——
Hislop, Alexander. The Two Babylons. Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1916
Leupold, H. E. Exposition of Genesis. Grand Rapids: Baker Book Houes, 1965.
Smith, J. B. A Revelation of Jesus Christ. Scottdale: Herald Press, 1961.
Woodrow, Ralph. Babylon Mystery Religion. Riverside Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, Inc., 1966.
—— END OF ARTICLE ——
You're speaking about the assumption. I think that is a perfectly valid question.
Indeed, we both agree that Mary is the mother of God, chosen specifically by Him, and is favored. We also believe Mary is alive in the kingdom of God (as is everyone in His kingdom).
I never made a specific claim that Mary ascended into Heaven free of death. In fact, the Church doesn't hold a specific position on that, whether she ascended like Elijah or her Son, or if she died and then went directly to heaven.
The Bible doesn't negate Mary's being in Heaven. If you are looking for a specific verse in the scriptures, then there is an underlining question that needs to be dissected...I asked MichaelH previously, but the question seemed to dissolve, but it's still extremely important:
Where in the Bible does it point to itself as the exclusive infallible source of Christian practice? Granted, I believe no one should add or take away from the Bible, but is the Bible the only source of God's Word, or is the Church, like the Bible, God-breathed and the pillar of truth?
Michael B, I have heard this so-called argument before. The silly myth that the Catholic Church is the great Whore. I used to argue in favor of this before I was a Catholic.
I welcome you to discuss with me, but copying/pasting large paragraphs of anti-Catholic sentiment is not engaging.
I am not discrediting my Protestant brothers and sisters as not being Christians...I know Protestants who are more-so Christians than some Catholics...but I am trying to explain what Catholicism is rather than supporting what it is not.
If the
If the catholics are not the whore, then who is, the description sounds exactly as it was said in Revelation chapter 17-18, the only reason I copied and pasted, is because I read what it says, Catholics are pagan in there ways, they change the Ten Commandments, the second commandment to be precise, they change time and laws, moving the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. It an amalgam between paganism and Christianity, they speak blasphemy against Jesus, he can only forgive sins. If you do not like what I copied and pasted, then be it so, it gives all the timelines and everything else you desire to know.
catholic are not the
If the catholics are not the whore, then who is, the description sounds exactly as it was said in Revelation chapter 17-18, the only reason I copied and pasted, is because I read what it says, Catholics are pagan in there ways, they change the Ten Commandments, the second commandment to be precise, they change time and laws, moving the sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. It an amalgam between paganism and Christianity, they speak blasphemy against Jesus, he can only forgive sins. If you do not like what I copied and pasted, then be it so, it gives all the timelines and everything else you desire to know.
The bible addresses this question. Scripture only recognizes two churches: God's true church and an apostate church . Both types of churches can trace its origins to apostolic times (2 thes 2:2, 7, Rev 2, 3). Both churches have wheat and tares (Rev 18:4, Matt 13:30). Only one strives for purity in doctrine. I would encourage you to study this subject deeply and earnestly.
God Bless!
MoG.
And there are many Godly Catholics as well, more loyal to the cross than many protestants. I do not want to come across as Catholic bashing, I love Catholic people. I will say this, it is not conjecture that the beast of Rev 18 is the Catholic church. However, I will say that many people do arrive at this conclusion through speculative methods. But there is a method of interpretation that God approves that is not speculative. The purpose? to warn people against the very last deception of Satan. This war is not against flesh and blood (Eph 6:12).
Michael B...to begin, I welcome you. This is generally a great forum and the people here are excellent, friendly, and sincere in their faith. I didn't want to continue without extending a kind gesture. I hope we can continue this discussion in good spirit.
To begin, you made multiple claims and none of them are true, so I'm going to have to address all of them. I'll begin with the idea that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon. The arguments in favor of this are trite and simplistic -- no city could possibly be considered the Great City other than Rome. When Rome was pagan, it has committed many martyrs of Christians. It mentions the seven hills and Rome is seated on 7 hills, etc. etc. Is there merit to this opinion? Yes, I think so. But there's a second opinion which has much more weight. I think it's necessary to look deeper into scripture...forgive me to posting a lot of text.
In Isaiah 1:21, it says "How the faithful city has become a harlot, She who was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her, But now murderers."
Jeremiah 3:6-11 says "Then the Lord said to me in the days of Josiah the king, 'Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. I thought, 'After she had done all these things she will return to Me'; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also. Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees. Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but rather in deception,' declares the Lord. And the Lord said to me, 'Faithless Israel has proved herself more righteous than treacherous Judah."
The Whore is not identical with, but a mysterious symbol, an image, of the city of Jerusalem.
John tells you that the whore is Jerusalem. The whore of Revelation 17 -- whenever John asks the angel who is this woman, the angel tells him this woman is the Great City, which has dominion over the kings of the earth. In the book of Revelation itself, when does that term "Great City" emerge, and what does it apply to? It occurs for the first time in Revelation 11. It's in a description of John's vision going out to measure the temple in Jerusalem because it's about to be destroyed. In Revelation 11:8, it says "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified."
It doesn't take a scholar to know that Christ wasn't crucified in Rome, but that he was crucified in Jerusalem, which is also allegorically called Sodom and Egypt.
I've heard the idea that the Beast could be pagan Rome. It's plausible. But that doesn't render the Catholic Church as the beast nor the whore (two different things).
The Bible is telling us what church to stay away from because they have teachers having itching ears, and preach the doctrines of devils, and the commandments of men, they turn there head away from the truth unto fables. They have a man who calls himself god, and they think they can forgive sins, that is blasphemy, Jesus is telling us to stay away from them, light and darkness can not occupy the same space.
Revelation 11 us talking about the two witnesses, Revelation 17-18 is talking about the harlot church, she is the mother and her siblings are all the other churches that act like she does.
Catholics never changed the Ten Commandments. This is another common misconception. Growing up as a Protestant, I was taught that the 2nd commandment was to not make or down to any idols as God is a jealous God. I was mostly brought up with the KJV and the NIV. Why do Protestants and Catholics have different lists? From Exodus 20, one can see that either list is an abbreviated version of the prohibitions. How they are abbreviated is the key. The Catholic Church has had its list of 10 Commandments for around 2000 years, while the protestant churches have had their list for around 500 years. The Protestant list clumps all of the possessions of one's neighbors into one commandment. It replaced the word "Kill" with "Murder." It shifted idolatry and engrave images into its own separate commandment, where as 1500 years before the reformation, the Church regarded this commandment as being synonymous with the first commandment.
If your concern is that the sabbath is celebrated on Sunday and not Saturday, then you must have a concern with almost every Christian denomination outside of a few. Is it Biblical that the sabbath be celebrated on Sunday? No. But it is not going against Biblical teaching. It is on Sunday in recognition and celebration of Christ's resurrection. 7th Day Adventists and a few other churches disapprove of this, but this is rationale behind it.
Who speaks blasphemy against Jesus? Certainly not the Catholic Church. Christ is the sole focus of worship. The Holy Trinity is the only one worthy of worship, and Christ is within that trinity. Catholics don't believe that others outside of God can forgive. Are you speaking in regards to Confession to a priest? Here is the Biblical response:
In John 20:21-23, it says "So Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.'"
This is the second time in the entire Bible where God breathed on man; first when he breathed into the nostrils of Adam, and then this time when he said to the disciples "receive the Holy Spirit." He gave them authority, through the Holy Spirit (not of their own) to forgive or retain sins. When a Catholic confesses to a priest, it is not asking forgiveness from the priest, nor is it the priest forgiving of his own person. Rather, the priest is an agent of Christ, a vehicle of the Holy Spirit, and this authority was given them by Christ in the Bible.
I've heard the argument "That was only for the 12." or "That was only temporary." Since when is the Holy Spirit and the Word of God temporary?
I'm providing a Biblical defense of what the great city is. Revelation 11 references this, and it is in accordance with Revelation 17's passage about the harlot.
Revelation 11 and Revelation 17-18 are talking about two different cities.
Let me ask you then who is the harlot.
Rev Harlot - Rome vs Jerusalem
There NEVER was "5 KINGDOMS WHO WERE" (7 hills/kingdoms) ruling over Rome (Revelations authored in 95 AD).. thus scripture cannot be talking about Rome as the "HARLOT" .. however in Ezekiel chapter 16 you will see God calls JERUSALEM the "HARLOT" 19 times and many many more times refers to JERUSALEM as LEWD, ADULTROUS AND ABOMINOUS ..
ROME had 4 eras at the time of Revelations authoring:
prehistoric (??? BC - 800 BC)
Etruscan (800 BC - 500 BC)
Greek (333 BC - 300 BC)
Roman (63 BC - 476 AD)
(the prehistoric era was before Rome existed and thus not relevant)
John 20 verse 21-23 is talking to the apostles, not to some priest 2000 years later.