First Church?

MichaelH said:
Anything that would deceive someone and the infusion of Homosexuality since the Son of Perdition (Antichrist) regards not women is no laughing matter.
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that is interesting you say that ..

1Cr 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Methodistism

United Methodist Church
American Methodism concentrates on the position that the same-sex relations are incompatible with "Christian teaching", but extends ministry to celibate persons of a homosexual orientation, holding that all individuals are of sacred worth.

As a result of decisions made in April 2008 and August 2009, the United Methodist Church entered into full communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The latter denomination allows individuals in committed homosexual relationships to serve as ministers, while the United Methodist Church requires gay clergy to remain celibate. Despite the fact that full communion allows for the interchangeability of all ordained ministers between the two denominations, Lutheran clergy who are involved in homosexual activity are prohibited to serve in the United Methodist Church in order to uphold the integrity of United Methodist ministerial standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...sexuality_and_Methodism

Presbyterianism

Presbyterian Church (USA)
Since 2011, The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the largest U.S. Presbyterian body, welcomes gay and lesbian persons to become members of the church as well as serve in leadership positions as ministers, deacons, elders, and trustees within the church.

United Church of Canada
The United Church of Canada, formed in 1925 with 70% of Canadian Presbyterians along with Congregationalists and Methodists, welcomes LGBT members into active membership and does not bar LGBT candidates to the ministry. It allows same-gender marriage ceremonies to be performed by its ministers and opposes repeal of the Civil Marriage Act that allows persons of the same gender to be married.

Church of Scotland
The "mother church" for Presbyterians worldwide,In 2011, the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland voted to allow openly gay ministers, provided those ministers were inducted into the Church of Scotland before May 2009. However, it imposed a moratorium on openly gay ministers being newly inducted into the Kirk until May 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...anism_and_homosexuality

Lutheranism

In North America
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
The 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly in Minneapolis passed "Human Sexuality, Gift and Trust", which approved more positive assessments of same-gender partnerships in the church. On 21 August 2009, the same body passed four ministry policy resolutions that opened the way for congregations to recognize and support such partnerships and for those in committed same-gender partnerships to be rostered leaders within the ELCA

In 2013, openly gay Lutheran Guy Erwin, who has lived in a gay partnership for 19 years, was installed in California as Bishop of the ELCA's Southwest California Synod

Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
In July 2011 Churchwide Assembly of Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada passed a new sexuality statement, permitting clergy in committed same-gender partnerships and allowing the blessing of same-sex unions.

In Europe
In many European Lutheran churches, open LGBT people can work as Lutheran pastors.

EKD in Germany
In November 2010, EKD passed a new right for LGBT ordination of homosexual ministers, who live in civil unions.

Scandinavia
The Church of Sweden has permitted the blessing of same-sex unions and the ordination of partnered gays and lesbians since 2006. Starting in November 2009, the church officiates same-sex marriage, since the Riksdag allowed same-sex marriage starting 1 May said year—however, individual priests can choose not to perform marriages for couples of the same gender. The Church of Denmark also provides for such blessings, as does the Church of Norway, which also ordains gays and lesbians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Lutheranism

Episcopalism

Episcopal Church (United States)
In 2009, the Convention affirmed that "gays and lesbians (that are) in lifelong committed relationships," should be ordained, saying that "God has called and may call such individuals to any ordained ministry in the Episcopal Church." The Convention also voted to allow bishops to decide whether or not to bless same-sex marriages.
In 2012, the Convention approved the trial use of an official liturgy to bless same-sex couples and their unions, called "The Witnessing and Blessing of a Lifelong Covenant."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_(United_States)
 
seriously .. If I was a reformist .. I would not call the RCC a Harlot of abominations .. because that is just the surface ..
 
According to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-IV, pedophilia is sexual attraction to children who have not yet arrived at puberty (DSM-IV, 528). While there have been priests who were pedophiles, the overwhelming majority of cases involved a disorder called ephebophilia, a term that refers to sexual attraction to minors who have arrived at puberty (i.e., teenagers). But we shouldn't give a false emphasis to the clinical term ephebophilia, because it masks the real nature of what is occurring: priestly homosexual activity with under-aged males.

Why the distinction between pedophilia and homosexual activity with minors? They're both horrible.

They are, but the distinction is important because there is a qualitative difference between having sex with a seven-year-old and having sex with a seventeen-year-old. Both actions are mortal sins, to say nothing of the damage they inflict on the victims. But a seven-year-old is totally unprepared for sex, both physically and psychologically. By contrast, a normal seventeen-year-old either is able to handle the reality of sex, however much more maturing he may still need.

The overwhelming majority of the priests involved in these incidents are accused of sexual molestation of adolescent males, not females. This means that nature of the scandal is homosexual. The media downplayed or ignored this fact in its handling of the subject. But it has everything to do with the cause, the extent, and the cure of the problem.

In his book Pedophiles and Priests, Prof. Philip Jenkins—a Protestant and an expert in the subject of pedophilia—stated, "The most-quoted survey of sexual problems among Protestant clergy states that some ten percent are involved in sexual misconduct of some kind, and that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests. These figures should be viewed skeptically; the methodology on which they are based is not clear, and they seem to rely disproportionately on individuals already in therapy. However, it is striking to find such a relatively high number suggested for both celibate and non-celibate clergy" (pp. 50-51).

Then why do cases of Catholic clerical abuse attract more attention than non-Catholic cases?

Because the Church expects higher standards of its clergy and members than do other bodies. Because the requirement of celibacy in particular rankles contemporary mores. Because the Church keeps a detailed dossier on members of its clergy, giving prosecutors more extensive evidence to work with. It is not paranoia to suggest that anti-Catholicism also plays a role.

Jenkins points out also that journalists often interpret new stories in terms of existing archetypes. Once the "pedophile priest" became an archetype in the press's mind, new accounts of priestly misconduct were poured into that mold. The fact that there is no corresponding "pedophile pastor" profile in the press's mind tends to cause instances of non-Catholic clerical abuse to be viewed as isolated incidents rather than as symptoms of a larger social problem (Pedophiles and Priests, pp. 3-12).

The secular media in the United States are overwhelmingly sympathetic to the homosexual movement. This was admitted recently by Al Rantel, a talk-show host on KABC, a major Los Angeles radio station, during a June 14 interview on CNN:

"I do not say this happily . . . because, as you may know, I happen to be gay myself. I'm openly gay here on the radio in Los Angeles and have been for many years.

"But I have to tell you that, you know, even if you are gay, two and two is still four, and there's this proverbial 3,000-pound elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to talk about. This is not a pedophile issue, although the media called it a pedophile issue, because they do not want to insult the gay community. They do not want to be politically incorrect.

"But what you have here are not pedophiles. You have predatory gay men—and there are some of us, believe me. I do not happen to be one of them, but there are some, and we should all admit they're there. The gay community needs to address this."

in a study by the United Methodist Church
12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact; 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed.

1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 3% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.
 
perhaps my choice to be non-denominational was wisdom .. if you love God with your all, and neighbor as self .. then you are my brothers and sisters ..

I'm not against ANY denomination .. but ALL HAVE SINNED ..
nor am I advocating anybody leaving their denomination, but working pro-active within it, to fix problems instead of throwing stones ..
 
Oh for the love of.....

When older men sexually abuse young girls, you don't cite that as an indictment against heterosexuality, but when older men sexually abuse young boys, you cite that as an indictment against homosexuality.

See the problem?
 
I also find it curious how the "spirit of the Antichrist", the "great deception", etc. always just happens to be whatever social/political issue is being debated at the time.

Now it's gays, before it was mixing of the races, before that communism, before that fascism, before that slavery/abolitionism....and on it goes.

Funny how that works.
 
RiverJordan said:
I also find it curious how the "spirit of the Antichrist", the "great deception", etc. always just happens to be whatever social/political issue is being debated at the time.

Now it's gays, before it was mixing of the races, before that communism, before that fascism, before that slavery/abolitionism....and on it goes.

Funny how that works.
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Michael brought up that the anti-Christ would be gay ..
I spring-boarded off that to try and stop brethren of different denominations from throwing stones

NO ONE said gays are the spirit of the anti-Christ, but they indeed are outside of God's will .. the spirit of the anti-Christ denies God ..
 
1Cr 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

if you want to condone sinning which is not repented ..
then you are in league with satan ..
hate the sin - love the sinner ..

if you love the sin .. then you are an enemy of the Gospel of Salvation ..
 
MichaelH said:
Lets get a few things clear. I believed we were all straight on everything so I am confused about this Post, my response was to Rosa who jumped in this thread and started screaming at me about "Catholic bashing" I did not quote her or even address her yet I get these accusations from her. Then she turns it around and blames me.

Everything you addressed is fine and you gave scriptures for. I really appreciate that and that showed some thought to my needs and what I asked for.

The only issue I have is that all the scriptures you gave are practiced by most denominations. Which they should being scripture and the Catholic Church was the first organized Church after a period of a dark time where there was no word going out.

As for Prayer, the scripture says Jesus was in all ways tempted and is touched by the feelings of our infirmities. Jesus also said the time comes when we go directly to the Father in His name by what he did and that gap he closed between us and the Father.

I think that is where I don't understand things because after being given clear instruction about who to pray to and who to petition it would seem to me that all denominations should follow those instructions, not instructions never given by the Lord.

My Lack of understanding though does not have to be hostile in anyway. It was my concern of this 7th Day Adventist attitude and Apostolic attitude that the rest of us might not be as informed or might not be part of the "True Church"

I let that slide until the comment about Non Catholics are in more danger of Hell. After that then I had enough and it's time to start proving these comments. That attitude is no different than Muslims coming here and quoting you the Koran, it's their book and I don't see any authority in their book, but I can be corrected with scriptures.

So any post about the Rosery on my part might have seemed a bit harsh, but it's true. Why say Hi to Mary 200 times. Hail means to greet and get ones attention and I don't think Mary lost her Hearing in Heaven. Also that must included the thought that Mary in some way is like God who is Omnipresent through the Holy Spirit.
Mary is created like God as we are, but only the Father was ever given these ability's mentioned in the Word. Being like God does not make you everything the creator is.

Also if there is any scripture given I did not address then I am sorry. I must have missed it and will address any scriptural proof of anything and change my stance quick if I see it in the Word.

Once again my post was addressed to Rosa since she seems to want to challenge or whatever you call it. I am not sure why she would do that with her current grasp on scripture. I even stay out of things I know little about.

Blessings.
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If I have misunderstood anything you've expressed, then I do apologize. I'm certainly doing my best, and I'm trying to keep up with the conversation as it has branched off into so many different things.

You're absolutely right that I provided scripture that most Christian side with. These scriptures were still aligned with each defense I had for the Church. This should be no coincidence or shock--why? Because Catholics and Protestants have much more in common than they differ. Granted, if the misconceptions were true, then there would be a much bigger divide, but that's all they are--misconceptions. Catholics, like Protestants, believe in the grace and salvation given to us by God. They believe in His love. They believe only through the Son are we saved. They believe no one can take Jesus' place. And they believe in eternal life in heaven.

You pointed out the concern you have with Catholics and prayer. Indeed, prayer should always go delivered to God as the ultimate authority, and only He is to be worshiped (I'm speaking of the trinity as all three are God). However, the Bible also encourages us to pray for one another and to live in communion in the Body of Christ. This is what it means to pray to Mary or to the saints. The Bible doesn't restrict us from asking friends or family from praying for each other. The Bible encourages it.

What seems clear may not be so after all. The Catholic doctrine of Christianity is much clearer once it is better understood...and it won't happen overnight. It takes time and discipline and prayer to better learn about it. The clear instructions of prayer are indeed clear, but even clear instructions can get perverted or misunderstood in time. Christ gave instruction on how to pray and gave us His prayer -- "Our father who art in heaven..." -- It may seem clear that this is how we are to pray every time, but as far as I know, not even one denomination strictly prays this prayer.

If I have come off hostile, I really didn't mean to. I am very sincere about my faith and would die for it. And if you were hostile, I forgive you -- I think we all get that way at times, even when it is unintentional.

You wrote "I let that slide until the comment about Non Catholics are in more danger of Hell." MichaelH, you are misunderstanding me over and over again. I don't want you to misunderstand me. I have to repeat this once more so that you don't take this statement out of context. I never once claimed that Non-Catholics are in MORE danger of going to Hell. I really never said that, especially since I believe some Catholics really are hell-bound if they continually reject God, and I believe many Protestants are heaven-bound for their faith, and lives they live through it, and their love of God. What I did say, and please, understand the context, is that Non-Catholics put themselves at risk if they reject the Church. And that is indeed true. I'm not claiming they are are greater risk than anyone else, but that alone can hold a divide.

You asked about the Hail Mary prayer. You find it ridiculous in repeating it because to you, it's like saying Hello to someone over, and over, and over again. If someone prays the Hail Mary in vain repetition (which some probably do unfortunately), then yes, it would be just like that. Is that the nature of it though? Not at all. The Hail Mary prayer is a prayer in veneration to God's mother. We venerate her because she is the mother of our Lord, and was obedient. When I married my wife, I came to love her family, including her mother, and it's because she is the mother of my wife. I love the mother of Jesus even more because she is the mother of God.

We don't need to pray to God 200 times a day, but it certainly is good to. 300 times--even better. Would that be ridiculous? Of course not. When we pray a Hail Mary, we do it in respect to her, and in worship to her Son. The Hail Mary ends in asking her to pray for us. If someone were to pray a Hail Mary 200 times in a row, it ought not be done in vain repetition, but in persistence, just as Jesus did in the garden before He was arrested. We wouldn't question Jesus' reason for praying the same prayer multiple times.

The Hail Mary doesn't put her on the same level as God. I've heard the argument before "If you believe in praying to Mary, then you are making her out to be a goddess, because only God can hear prayers all at once, while Mary was just a woman." I agree that Mary is not a goddess. She isn't both woman and God, and she doesn't even have Godlike powers. Mary, being in heaven and in the presence of God, is not in a realm of time. Heaven itself is not in a realm of time, which is why this extends out to all in heaven. They are not omnipresent the way God is. God simply is. He isn't a being, and He never had a beginning. This is not how Mary nor the saints are. They did have a beginning, and they are beings, albeit made in God's image like all of us were, but they are creations of His. But does heaven have a time-limit? Is it in the realm of time? Is Mary in heaven? I'll grant you, I'm presenting a very simple layman's explanation for this, and the argument is valid because it's a mystery, but a conclusion that it perceives Mary on a Godly level is a flawed conclusion.

I didn't mean to interject your questions to Rosa. I may have interjected because I was eager to answer. Rosa is free to respond and I don't speak for her, but all I am trying to do is be a voice for Catholicism in explaining why Catholics do such and such.
 
ixoye_8 said:
Eze 16:2 “Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations
Eze 16:15 “But you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries on every passer-by who might be willing.
Eze 16:16 “You took some of your clothes, made for yourself high places of various colors and played the harlot on them, which should never come about nor happen.
Eze 16:17 “You also took your beautiful jewels made of My gold and of My silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself male images that you might play the harlot with them.
Eze 16:20 “Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter?
Eze 16:21 “You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire.
Eze 16:22 “Besides all your abominations and harlotries you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare and squirming in your blood.
Eze 16:25 “You built yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry
Eze 16:26 “You also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, and multiplied your harlotry to make Me angry.
Eze 16:27 “Behold now, I have stretched out My hand against you and diminished your rations. And I delivered you up to the desire of those who hate you, the daughters of the Philistines, who are ashamed of your lewd conduct.
Eze 16:28 “Moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied.
Eze 16:29 “You also multiplied your harlotry with the land of merchants, Chaldea, yet even with this you were not satisfied.”’”
Eze 16:30 “How languishing is your heart,” declares the Lord GOD, “while you do all these things, the actions of a bold-faced harlot.
Eze 16:31 “When you built your shrine at the beginning of every street and made your high place in every square, in disdaining money, you were not like a harlot.
Eze 16:32 “You adulteress wife, who takes strangers instead of her husband!
Eze 16:33 “Men give gifts to all harlots, but you give your gifts to all your lovers to bribe them to come to you from every direction for your harlotries.
Eze 16:34 “Thus you are different from those women in your harlotries, in that no one plays the harlot as you do, because you give money and no money is given you; thus you are different.”
Eze 16:35 Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 16:36 Thus says the Lord GOD, “Because your lewdness was poured out and your nakedness uncovered through your harlotries with your lovers and with all your detestable idols, and because of the blood of your sons which you gave to idols,
Eze 16:38 “Thus I will judge you like women who commit adultery or shed blood are judged; and I will bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.
Eze 16:41 “They will burn your houses with fire and execute judgments on you in the sight of many women. Then I will stop you from playing the harlot, and you will also no longer pay your lovers.
Eze 16:43 “Because you have not remembered the days of your youth but fnhave enraged Me by all these things, behold, I in turn will bring your conduct down on your own head,” declares the Lord GOD, “so that you will not commit this lewdness on top of all your other abominations.
Eze 16:47 “Yet you have not merely walked in their ways or done according to their abominations; but, as if that were too little, you acted more corruptly in all your conduct than they.
Eze 16:51 “Furthermore, Samaria did not commit half of your sins, for you have multiplied your abominations more than they. Thus you have made your sisters appear righteous by all your abominations which you have committed.
Eze 16:52 “Also bear your disgrace in that you have made judgment favorable for your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more abominably than they, they are more in the right than you. Yes, be also ashamed and bear your disgrace, in that you made your sisters appear righteous.
Eze 16:57 before your wickedness was uncovered, fnso now you have become the reproach of the daughters of Edom and of all who are around her, of the daughters of the Philistines—those surrounding you who despise you.
Eze 16:58 “You have borne the penalty of your lewdness and abominations,” the LORD declares.

this relates to end-times below ..

Eze 16:60 “Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
Eze 16:62 “Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD,
Eze 16:63 so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord GOD declares.
meaning when they are GRAFTED BACK IN under the Covenant of Faith ..
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This passage in Ezekiel that you just posted says she is playing the role of an harlot, that she is not the harlot, The woman is the catholic church, I can see that people do not want to accept that, this is my last post directed towards you, I can see you like to use words to attack people personally which I choose not to take part in.
 
I apologize for Rosa being quick to being defensive (which I can) ..
but that is something non-Catholics instill in them ..
I saw the same thing she did as well .. a straw man being set up ..
not you Michael .. but you sure did say many things in a less then tactful way ..
I see this as a growing problem, yet it has been here since Luther called the Pope "the anti-Christ" ..

nonetheless .. it was I who told her to stay out of here today ..
 
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Michael B said:
This passage in Ezekiel that you just posted says she is playing the role of an harlot, that she is not the harlot, The woman is the catholic church, I can see that people do not want to accept that, this is my last post directed towards you, I can see you like to use words to attack people personally which I choose not to take part in.
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it says "playing the harlot" much less then it straight out it is ..

thanks for the false accusation brother ..
 
Michael B said:
This passage in Ezekiel that you just posted says she is playing the role of an harlot, that she is not the harlot, The woman is the catholic church, I can see that people do not want to accept that, this is my last post directed towards you, I can see you like to use words to attack people personally which I choose not to take part in.
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you are also going against God ..
because you are bringing accusation against the RCC with no proof ..
and contrary to biblical criteria .. have you no shame ???
 
LysanderShapiro................ It's all Good, I believe I think I see why Saying Rome is the True church might be normal and without thought to what that really indicates as that is what is taught. Rome certainly does believe it's the True Church and I suspect those that follow it might be inclined to believe the same thing. Same with the hell comment, it would just be something understood as true then mentioned as part of discussion without stopping to think about what it really imply. I can understand that as every demoniation has it's own phrases and understandings true or not.

I was slain in the spirit might be something you hear around my circle with zero scripture to back that statement up. I myself avoid anything that I can't back with scripture.

Homosexuality: is the pervasive and spirit of the Antichrist. We see the warning to the churches in Asia Minor and that warning still stands to all chruches today.

Through homosexuality and free love come through pagan belief's traced back to Sodom. It's sin allowed legally and has already taken down some major denominations. A great loss would be the United Methodist Church and the Lutheran Church both brought down to nothing.

The antichrist regards no women, and through this acceptance of all things with religion stamped on it and crying of violations of human rights, this spirit is destroying the values though vain occults and religion.

Read the Warnings to the 7 churches of Asia Minor and know why those letters were included in Revelation for all to read.

Ixoye_8 is expounding above and seems right and is right. This Mother Harlot is not yet known but a base of what is to be revealed. i can promise it is not the Catholic Church or Rome.

Blessings.
 
MichaelH said:
LysanderShapiro................ It's all Good, I believe I think I see why Saying Rome is the True church might be normal and without thought to what that really indicates as that is what is taught. Rome certainly does believe it's the True Church and I suspect those that follow it might be inclined to believe the same thing. Same with the hell comment, it would just be something understood as true then mentioned as part of discussion without stopping to think about what it really imply. I can understand that as every demoniation has it's own phrases and understandings true or not.

I was slain in the spirit might be something you hear around my circle with zero scripture to back that statement up. I myself avoid anything that I can't back with scripture.

Homosexuality: is the pervasive and spirit of the Antichrist. We see the warning to the churches in Asia Minor and that warning still stands to all chruches today.

Through homosexuality and free love come through pagan belief's traced back to Sodom. It's sin allowed legally and has already taken down some major denominations. A great loss would be the United Methodist Church and the Lutheran Church both brought down to nothing.

The antichrist regards no women, and through this acceptance of all things with religion stamped on it and crying of violations of human rights, this spirit is destroying the values though vain occults and religion.

Read the Warnings to the 7 churches of Asia Minor and know why those letters were included in Revelation for all to read.

Ixoye_8 is expounding above and seems right and is right. This Mother Harlot is not yet known but a base of what is to be revealed. i can promise it is not the Catholic Church or Rome.

Blessings.
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I think you gave a valid and kind response, MichaelH.

God bless you.
 
I thought the "Spirit of the Antichrist" is Islam? Oh wait...it's Communism. No, it's the Federal Reserve. Or maybe aliens?
 
You don't have to look too far to see all sorts of loony end times stuff coming from certain corners of Christianity. And like I described earlier, it's funny how the "spirit of the Antichrist" is invariably whatever hot button social/political issue of the day happens to be.
 
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