Flags For Discerning Argumentative People

[rtm3039]

It is sometimes a difficult process. Take the below. A teacher placed this poster on her wall and subsequently got in trouble when her principal alleged what she did was not appropriate.

This is a poster of a receipt where ammunition was purchased at an El Paso Texas Walmart where there was a mass shooting in 2019. The argument was that it was inappropriate for 10 y/o students to be exposed to this. I totally disagreed with the administration, for the following reasons:

- The teacher in question is an Art teacher.
- While there are many ways of defining Art, most agree that the main purpose of Art is to induce an emotion and cause a discussion.
- This poster was purchased as a copy of an original that appeared at a "Teen Art Demonstration" in the Bass Museum here in Miami last year.
- The receipt is not for ammunition purchased for use in the El Paso mass shooting, as this happened in August 2019 and the date on the receipt is December 2019.
- Our schools do a school lockdown drill every month and even our kindergarten kids know this is done as part of a drill to prepare for a possible mass shooting at the school.

So, the learning point here is that this teacher did not get in trouble for posting an inappropriate poster, but because her principal thought the poster was inappropriate. No one gets to push their opinion, especially since this is not supported by policy. So, the teacher wins, and her career is safe.

 

[bobinfaith]

It is sometimes a difficult process. Take the below. A teacher placed this poster on her wall and subsequently got in trouble when her principal alleged what she did was not appropriate.

This is a poster of a receipt where ammunition was purchased at an El Paso Texas Walmart where there was a mass shooting in 2019. The argument was that it was inappropriate for 10 y/o students to be exposed to this. I totally disagreed with the administration, for the following reasons:

- The teacher in question is an Art teacher.
- While there are many ways of defining Art, most agree that the main purpose of Art is to induce an emotion and cause a discussion.
- This poster was purchased as a copy of an original that appeared at a "Teen Art Demonstration" in the Bass Museum here in Miami last year.
- The receipt is not for ammunition purchased for use in the El Paso mass shooting, as this happened in August 2019 and the date on the receipt is December 2019.
- Our schools do a school lockdown drill every month and even our kindergarten kids know this is done as part of a drill to prepare for a possible mass shooting at the school.

So, the learning point here is that this teacher did not get in trouble for posting an inappropriate poster, but because her principal thought the poster was inappropriate. No one gets to push their opinion, especially since this is not supported by policy. So, the teacher wins, and her career is safe.



View attachment 10044

Hey RTM;

I'm kind of stuck on this one, brother.

On one hand the Art teacher presented this large poster of a receipt. On it shows ammunition purchased for $5.48 and by showing this to her 10 year old students, in my thinking she was being creative to encourage the 10 year olds in an emotional reaction and discussion.

On the other hand I feel the creative motive on the part of the art teacher was not inappropriate for the sole reason that the teacher should have been more considerate for the parents to solely have these discussions taught to their children in their home. In the home the parents can invoke an emotional reaction and discussion with their children as they see fit.

It doesn't matter whether the tragedy happened in August, December or in El Paso, the art teacher should have considered the latter.

I do agree that schools, institutions, Churches, etc...should take the measures of lockdown drills from their security in these times of escalating "loss of respect for human life."

There is a difference between having an opinion and stimulating a discussion such as this to children. Let the children develop, learn and grow in many other emotional and discussion as children.

Am I missing something here?

God bless you, rtm3039.

 

[rtm3039]

Hey RTM;

I'm kind of stuck on this one, brother.

On one hand the Art teacher presented this large poster of a receipt. On it shows ammunition purchased for $5.48 and by showing this to her 10 year old students, in my thinking she was being creative to encourage the 10 year olds in an emotional reaction and discussion.

On the other hand I feel the creative motive on the part of the art teacher was not inappropriate for the sole reason that the teacher should have been more considerate for the parents to solely have these discussions taught to their children in their home. In the home the parents can invoke an emotional reaction and discussion with their children as they see fit.

It doesn't matter whether the tragedy happened in August, December or in El Paso, the art teacher should have considered the latter.

I do agree that schools, institutions, Churches, etc...should take the measures of lockdown drills from their security in these times of escalating "loss of respect for human life."

There is a difference between having an opinion and stimulating a discussion such as this to children. Let the children develop, learn and grow in many other emotional and discussion as children.

Am I missing something here?

God bless you, rtm3039.

Ok, I too am confused now. When you typed: "On the other hand I feel the creative motive on the part of the art teacher was not inappropriate for the sole reason that the teacher should have been more considerate for the parents to solely have these discussions taught to their children in their home.," did you mean to type "appropriate"?

According to the teacher, she did not notice the word "ammunition" on the poster. This is probably not a true statement on her part. Second, she claims that the poster was not actually intended to start a discussion, which actually started when one of her students started asking questions.

What a teacher can and cannot say or do has become very confusing. We have a case on a teacher because she addressed the current Israeli/Hammas conflict and asked her students to "pray for the Palestinians." The issue came about because she teaches in a school with a large Jewish population and the parents went crazy over the request. We have a teacher in trouble because he made pro-Trump comments and anti-Biden comments. We have many teachers in trouble for refusing to call a male student a "she," or female students a "he." The latter is made even more confusing, as the Governor has signed law stating that a student must be referenced by his/her gender of birth.

As for this incident, we really do not have written guidance that clearly notes what topics should be left to the parent to discuss at home. Well, there is some guidance regarding faith, gender, and politics, but this incident did not include any of these "hot topics." In this case, no parent or student filed a complaint. It became an issue because the principal found it inappropriate. The student who asked the initial questions noted that she saw no issues with the poster. Of the students who reported feeling "sad," this was attributed to the issue of mass shootings and not the poster itself.

I don't have a good answer to this whole issue. If we say that the issue of race should be left to the parents, what happens to the student who has parents that are members of the KKK?

We had an issue a while back during one of those school lookdowns. Turns out that the parents of one student told the child that in the event of a lockdown and possible shooting incident, he was to locate the closest window, open it, and jump out. Can you imagine how that would work out?

At this point, I fully understand why we have such a shortage of teachers.

 

[bobinfaith]

Good morning, Ray;

In these times it has become difficult. What is the parameter of a teacher's authority or permission of what she can teach and on what topics?

I was looking at two sides of the art teacher's decision.

On the first hand I was siding with the teacher. On the second hand I was siding with the parents. I did mean to say inappropriate but should have left out "not." I'm sorry about that.

For a moment I thought the art teacher incident occurred in the education system where you work. But that took place in Texas. I do appreciate what you do and to be frank this is not my expertise.

I agree this can be confusing just by you and me discussing this incident. I get these kind of issues from the parents in the church and community. I admit I don't have the answers but encourage the parents to attend these PTA meetings and voice their concerns for their children.

Earlier this summer I had this discussion with my Dad. When I was in Kindergarten we had a portrait of President John and Jacqueline Kennedy in the classroom and it gave me a sense of a normal life and feeling safe. But he brought up the war protests against Viet Nam, the KKK in the mid 1960s and the 6 Day War in Israel of 1967. These were brought up in grade schools around the country and that caused a stir from the parents.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Lanolin]

Sometimes on forums, especially with lots of americans talking about politics, I find they are especially divided over issues, that their country ought to be called Divided States of America not United States.

My country (nz) is small but it can still have this divide, which seems to widen over things like rich vs poor, liberal vs conservative, maori vs pakeha. We did have civil wars and things in the past. I think a lot of that can still be around today in peoples attitudes and outlooks.

I tend to be neutral and apolitical over these things though everyone has a bias towards one or the the other. Election times can bring out the worst in people.

I have practiced lockdowns in school. Depends if the shooter is INside the building or outside. Most schools now have high gates. (Some may even have barbed wire!) I was responsible for the library. Some libraries have several entrances and exits. I needed to make sure people know how to unlock and lock these doors, and windows (some hard to reach, some had wire over them). Honestly some schools are like prisons.

 

[Lanolin]

I have heard from teachers that children/teens who have been kicked out or expelled from school then try and come back to school and disturb the ones in school. At lunchtime when everyone is outside, its hard to police and some could wander in and entice them away.

If they are in a gang, usually the gang will have a patch or colour or some kind of tattoo that identifies them as such. (Red flags can be not just literal red flags).

When I was in school, a naughty child would be red carded. This meant that if they were acting up, or trying to harm someone, the principal would be immediately called. The teacher had to give them a red card to easily identifiy them or anything red, like a piece of paper, or even a pen. They would be sent to the principals office (for dressing down, talking to, etc) but they had to be away from the other children. Sometimes this requires restraint.

Verbal abuse or arguments, I think can be defused if you know the right way to do it. I wouldn't encourage this sort of behaviour but there are many people who instigate this type of argument like are you for me or against me and get people to take sides. And they seem to thing there is nothing wrong with this, but it also means they can't see it from Gods point of view (from above) or from someone stuck in the middle.

Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers. I hope we all learn how to make peace and be at peace with each other. Conflict, sometimes we can't avoid it but need to learn how to work through it esp disagreements. Reason for so many divorces is that people can't work through them together and need to be apart.

 

[bobinfaith]

Sometimes on forums, especially with lots of americans talking about politics, I find they are especially divided over issues, that their country ought to be called Divided States of America not United States. My country (nz) is small but it can still have this divide, which seems to widen over things like rich vs poor, liberal vs conservative, maori vs pakeha. We did have civil wars and things in the past. I think a lot of that can still be around today in peoples attitudes and outlooks. I tend to be neutral and apolitical over these things though everyone has a bias towards one or the the other. Election times can bring out the worst in people. I have practiced lockdowns in school. Depends if the shooter is INside the building or outside. Most schools now have high gates. (Some may even have barbed wire!) I was responsible for the library. Some libraries have several entrances and exits. I needed to make sure people know how to unlock and lock these doors, and windows (some hard to reach, some had wire over them). Honestly some schools are like prisons.

Hello Lanolin;

After reading your post, welcome to my country.

Demographic logic of both countries reveals New Zealand which has a population of a little over 5 million residents and it's geographical size is comparable to Colorado. The United States in comparison has a population residence of 333 million people and is 49 states larger. I have shared this before at CFS and this logic has an impact difference between both countries' social problems.

Social problems and divides in both countries are not taken lightly. The problems in the USA are highly intense in these times. It has escalated in the last 40 years that I can remember being an involved citizen and minister of the United States.

Should our nation be called the "Divided States of America" makes a "clever" good argument. It's sad but I have to admit at times I feel that. But what I do know is the patriotism and love of our country is still very high and united. I feel qualified to make this statement because I live and see this in my own back yard.

Whereas countries across the miles may not hear much about American's love for country because in my day to day opinion of America's social media, (or yellow journalism) it sells negative information to the public becoming very convoluted. This is why staying in the Word and prayer empowers us with discernment and wisdom for the Believer.

It's obvious today that the Believers all over the world are walking the narrow gate. Regardless of the narrow gate in America, New Zealand still remains a strong partner and ally of our country. The Wellington Declaration and today's trade remain strong between both countries and I can say this out balances any divide between both countries.

For that I give God thanksgiving and praise.

God bless you, Lanolin.

 

[Lanolin]

Americans living in NZ are generally appreciative and don't get too involved with politics. I have relatives in the US and the US govt is something apart from how they actually live. So they don't argue about it. Talking about something doesn't necessarily mean arguing about it. You can be impartial.

We have our own news, media and things so not much attention is paid to it. Lots of entertainment comes from the US but when it gets into politics its a real turn off. I don't think people are that interested, in general, and it's sort of rude to ask peoples opinions about religion, politics or how much money you earn.

There are lots of other things to talk about.

If someone is arguing relentlessly about US politics on media, forums and saturates every post with politics that just annoys people!

During election time here, the rule is you can campaign for about 2 months before the election but after that you have to take ALL ads down. People want to get on with their lives without having to always listen to politicians spout on about promises they often can't keep.

 

[forgiven61]

During election time here, the rule is you can campaign for about 2 months before the election but after that you have to take ALL ads down. People want to get on with their lives without having to always listen to politicians spout on about promises they often can't keep.

that would be good for the united states also

 

[Via dolarossa]

bobinfaith

Thinking on this topic further from a different point of view;

sometimes when i listen or read between the lines in a blow out i can easily pick up the other persons frustrations. Accusations fly. It’s out in the open to tackle.

Yet in a more subtle put down kind of bickering, It’s just not easy to know whats upset the other person. I sense something wrong but don’t know why. I then start to think they’re a bully. especially when they are different with others, but because they don’t let me know what is bothering them, i just get left with a kind of unfinished business. This kind of relational aggression annoys me to boot. Even more so when I'm still being engaging. I then must switch off and close myself off to the other person permanently. In my eyes, If they care enough about the relationship they would open up. Just accuse me already! I don’t mind.
just a accusation would do. At least I know they care.

 

[bobinfaith]

Americans living in NZ are generally appreciative and don't get too involved with politics. I have relatives in the US and the US govt is something apart from how they actually live. So they don't argue about it. Talking about something doesn't necessarily mean arguing about it. You can be impartial. We have our own news, media and things so not much attention is paid to it. Lots of entertainment comes from the US but when it gets into politics its a real turn off. I don't think people are that interested, in general, and it's sort of rude to ask peoples opinions about religion, politics or how much money you earn. There are lots of other things to talk about. If someone is arguing relentlessly about US politics on media, forums and saturates every post with politics that just annoys people! During election time here, the rule is you can campaign for about 2 months before the election but after that you have to take ALL ads down. People want to get on with their lives without having to always listen to politicians spout on about promises they often can't keep.

Hello Lanolin;

That's good to know. I heard Americans who have relocated to New Zealand are grateful for their decision and are happy. I learned this from a New Zealander community called SF Kiwis - New Zealand American Association of San Francisco. That's where I also learned about Stewart Island, NZ.

I don't get to meet with them as much as I would like to but the times I got to talk with a few New Zealanders they shared their love for home country, enjoy their life here, rugby back home is very popular here, and the flight to cities like Aukland is 13.5 hours non-stop, Christchurch or Tauranga about 16 hours with one stop.

The New Zealanders go to Churches in their communities but I don't know of any NZ Christian plant Churches in the Bay Area.

God bless you, Lanolin.

 

[Lanolin]

Hello Lanolin;

That's good to know. I heard Americans who have relocated to New Zealand are grateful for their decision and are happy. I learned this from a New Zealander community called SF Kiwis - New Zealand American Association of San Francisco. That's where I also learned about Stewart Island, NZ.

I don't get to meet with them as much as I would like to but the times I got to talk with a few New Zealanders they shared their love for home country, enjoy their life here, rugby back home is very popular here, and the flight to cities like Aukland is 13.5 hours non-stop, Christchurch or Tauranga about 16 hours with one stop.

The New Zealanders go to Churches in their communities but I don't know of any NZ Christian plant Churches in the Bay Area.

God bless you, Lanolin.

Aw its a long way to go from our country to yours for sure.

We do have more ties to LA as it was one of our sister cities (Auckland has many 'sister cities') that we seem to have dealings with, and San Francisco is also quite highly regarded, though I don't think we have direct flights there anymore as Air New Zealand has changed to flying direct from Auckland to Houston.

Though anyone with an American (or Canadian) accent in NZ will stand out. Stewart Island is one of those islands that few people get to and it's a very tight knit community.

As far as churches go I am not sure as I haven't encountered many americans in churches I've attended. They probably tend to go to the more charismatic/pentecostal type churches as they kind of worship they are used to, while mainstream established churches here are mostly in Church of England tradition (Anglican) which seems to have the most parishioners (as they call it)

 

[bobinfaith]

bobinfaith

Thinking on this topic further from a different point of view; sometimes when i listen or read between the lines in a blow out i can easily pick up the other persons frustrations. Accusations fly. It’s out in the open to tackle. Yet in a more subtle put down kind of bickering, It’s just not easy to know whats upset the other person. I sense something wrong but don’t know why. I then start to think they’re a bully. especially when they are different with others, but because they don’t let me know what is bothering them, i just get left with a kind of unfinished business. This kind of relational aggression annoys me to boot. Even more so when I'm still being engaging. I then must switch off and close myself off to the other person permanently. In my eyes, If they care enough about the relationship they would open up. Just accuse me already! I don’t mind. just a accusation would do. At least I know they care.

Hello Via;

I'd like to respond to a different point of view;

I had a blow out with a man earlier this year. It was ridiculous and something that could have been avoided. I came to my senses while we both peaked in our anger. He wanted to dismiss me and walk away but I know this would have ended in unfinished baggage.

Ephesians 4:29 quickly came to mind.

I knew he wasn't violent (but it could have come to that) so this led me to calm the tone in my voice and take a step back. I can't remember exactly what I said, but it prompted him to open up as to why he is the way he is and why he reacted so angrily at me.

In this instance I couldn't read what triggered him. I didn't know him that well and like I said it was ridiculous and this is what angered me. But I began to understand a side of him that I wasn't aware.

I wanted to reconcile our blowup and he could see my body language and that I was listening attentively to him. I apologized and took responsibility for upsetting him without making excuses for myself. He approached me, apologized for his part and we shook hands. By now we were both calm.

I believe this was God at work. At other times our discernment will lead us to take a step back in the heat of the moment.

He is a Church going man and he knows I'm also in the ministry. Other than CFS we didn't announce this to anyone else.

I shared at City Team Ministries San Francisco, a men's recovery program that I used to serve, how I would feel bad when getting into heated, verbal exchanges with angry men in the Church, but guys are still guys! Most guy's anger gets them into angry verbal scraps and usually by the next day we get over it and forget it.

This doesn't give us the green light to go at it anytime for any reason. I have to rely on the maturity and wisdom God gave each of us to diffuse irrational, unreasonable, illogical heated arguments. It's best to walk away and in time try to come back and talk.

God bless you, Via.

 

[Lanolin]

One thing I found, possibly just from being a middle child, is being being caught up between two sides, both telling you completely opposite things, and wanting you to choose and pick a side.

I can tell you I really don't like being the piggy in the middle, where, you choose one thing which is right for one person, but wrong for the other and vice versa. And then I get blamed or scapegoated by BOTH for picking the 'wrong side'. Especially when those two sides are not talking to each other or listening!

arrgh. Possibly the root cause of mental illness like Bipolar disorder which is mainly doublemindedness. Thank God for His wisdom, but then a lot of people don't like Gods wisdom and would prefer you listen to them as if they know it all. Nobody knows it all except God!