It sometimes does and it sometimes doesn't. This is true both with God and man, and can be seen in both.
Forgive your enemies and love those who persecute you
- Thread starter JohnC
- Start date
I guess you'll have to give me some examples.
With God: When God miraculously heals or delivers someone from their disease or bondage due to a sin(s) they committed.
With man: when a judge has compassion and pardons someone for crime committed or a parent doesn't punish their child although they deserve it because both showed great remorse.
Both of these are examples of mercy and grace.
I don't believe that either of those are without consequences.
Please explain what you mean by this.
I view those examples as a release of deserved consequences. What are the consequences still at play then?
Consequence = "the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier" (dictionary.reference.com). Everything that we do has consequences. When the judge pardons someone for a crime he or she committed, I can bet that it changed that person's life. Same when God delivers someone from bondage.
I'm getting tired and probably am not stating my thoughts very eloquently right now, but I know what I mean!
Ahhh I get you now. I was thinking of consequence only in the negative sense.
Consequence = "the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier" (dictionary.reference.com). Everything that we do has consequences. When the judge pardons someone for a crime he or she committed, I can bet that it changed that person's life. Same when God delivers someone from bondage.
I'm getting tired and probably am not stating my thoughts very eloquently right now, but I know what I mean!
Every Action brings a Reaction
consequences is something that most wont own up to. Our words we speak bring consequences and our thoughts bring forth consequences how we do things today paints our tomorrow through consequences.
Consequence = "the effect, result, or outcome of something occurring earlier" (dictionary.reference.com). Everything that we do has consequences. When the judge pardons someone for a crime he or she committed, I can bet that it changed that person's life. Same when God delivers someone from bondage.
I'm getting tired and probably am not stating my thoughts very eloquently right now, but I know what I mean!
I agree....every action has a consequence...good or bad. And even if a judge or God pardoned someone...they still have a knowing within, or even there might be something that someone else is requiring of them. Like if i broke something that belonged to someone else and they forgave me....i would still feel bad. And if i was forgiven....i still might be required to pay for the replacement.
Thank you! That's the thought I was trying to convey! Once again, Cturtle pulls through!
So... I gotta be honest with you guys... When I wrote this topic - I knew it was important for some reason... but it really bothered me.... Very dangerous ground to tread upon and much room for serious error....
My understanding is starting to crystallize - and I think it's a more to this than I thought at first....
When you "Forgive" - you give up your right of retribution and seeking "Justice" or Restitution from them... The right of exacting punishment or even of seeking damages against another....
This does not generally erase the consequences.... The consequences are what they are....
If somebody else crashes into your car - and you "Forgive" the other party - there are still 2 cars which need to be fixed and perhaps injuries that need to be dealt with... You are just saying that you will not pursue any legal claims or seek extra punishment against them...
So......
Say you were to seek a claim against Satan for restoration of your loss at his hand.... Does he have the POWER or ABILITY to grant you that full restoration? Say he takes your hand - does he have any power what so ever to restore that hand to you? Does Satan have the power to restore fulfillment, peace, joy, and love... How about lost family members? Does Satan have the power to restore a backslidden son or daughter BACK to faith?
An even larger consideration... Would YOU petition God to grant Satan the right to restore you? Would you accept your sustenance, restoration, and redemption at the hand of Satan rather than at the hand of God...
Now... Say God granted you the right to return Eye for eye and tooth for tooth..... Do you have any power to collect this? Do you hold the physical power in your hand to take Satan's eye? Do you believe you could deceive Satan into error?
No... Our hope is in God... Our hope is that God is faithful to comfort and restore that which was taken without cause... and we have no claim against anyone for that which WAS taken from us with cause... I have no desire for God to grant more power and authority to Satan such that Satan could have the power to restore that which was lost...
Thus forgiving Satan is critical.... as crazy as it sounds...
Thanks
My understanding is starting to crystallize - and I think it's a more to this than I thought at first....
When you "Forgive" - you give up your right of retribution and seeking "Justice" or Restitution from them... The right of exacting punishment or even of seeking damages against another....
This does not generally erase the consequences.... The consequences are what they are....
If somebody else crashes into your car - and you "Forgive" the other party - there are still 2 cars which need to be fixed and perhaps injuries that need to be dealt with... You are just saying that you will not pursue any legal claims or seek extra punishment against them...
So......
Say you were to seek a claim against Satan for restoration of your loss at his hand.... Does he have the POWER or ABILITY to grant you that full restoration? Say he takes your hand - does he have any power what so ever to restore that hand to you? Does Satan have the power to restore fulfillment, peace, joy, and love... How about lost family members? Does Satan have the power to restore a backslidden son or daughter BACK to faith?
An even larger consideration... Would YOU petition God to grant Satan the right to restore you? Would you accept your sustenance, restoration, and redemption at the hand of Satan rather than at the hand of God...
Now... Say God granted you the right to return Eye for eye and tooth for tooth..... Do you have any power to collect this? Do you hold the physical power in your hand to take Satan's eye? Do you believe you could deceive Satan into error?
No... Our hope is in God... Our hope is that God is faithful to comfort and restore that which was taken without cause... and we have no claim against anyone for that which WAS taken from us with cause... I have no desire for God to grant more power and authority to Satan such that Satan could have the power to restore that which was lost...
Thus forgiving Satan is critical.... as crazy as it sounds...
Thanks
In the fall, man gave over dominion to Satan - we let him in. Your argument that we have no power to exact justice/vengeance from Satan nor his ability to right his wrongs works against our ability to forgve him. God is the only one to be in a position to right wrongs done to us. We have to accept responsibility for our sin nature that continues to allow him (satan) access. God is my shield against my own sin nature and Satan. I cannot, alone deal with Satan for good or ill as he is more powerful than just me. All of man combined cannot defeat satan. Or his nature. It is what it is. Do you hate and ask vengeance from a storm? Do you forgive a storm?
Does the Bible say that God forgives satan, or does it say that satan gets defeated and thrown into the lake of fire?
There is NOT ever been nor ever coulod be any forgiveness for satan. Angles are created to obey and if they disobey it is over. There is not repentance or do over. Angels are created spirit beings who have no temptor such as we do. NO once an angel acts in disobedience they are doomed, done and game over.
Hi John C,
Thats not quite the way it works. Lets use your car situation- if a man gets drunk and hits a car with a family in it and kills them. The drunk man can be forgiven and even though you forgave him you still seek legal actions.
What then did you forgive - if you still completely retain your right of seeking recourse and seeking damages?
I mean, I understand that with insurance companies now - it's not like you have to go knock on the door of some fellow across town to collect damages... A big company writes a check and it's done...
But it brings up a really good point that I will have to think about and my own attitude about forgiveness... Do I actually forgive my right of claim - or have I just simply spiritualized it to leave out all the substance.... How does this relate to the parable of the 10,000 talents in Matthew 18:23-35
I mean, I understand that with insurance companies now - it's not like you have to go knock on the door of some fellow across town to collect damages... A big company writes a check and it's done...
But it brings up a really good point that I will have to think about and my own attitude about forgiveness... Do I actually forgive my right of claim - or have I just simply spiritualized it to leave out all the substance.... How does this relate to the parable of the 10,000 talents in Matthew 18:23-35
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Yeah, it was a rhetorical question . . .
John you are not actually asking me this are you ? You forgive what they did. Other wise you hold a grudge and evil and a I will pay you back type of thing. This how ever does not say they must not OWN UP TO THEIR MISTAKES OR ACTIONS....
I'd like to know what you think about Matthew 18:15-17 -
“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
Would you say that the Bible is telling us not to forgive him or her, or, is it just that even though they are forgiven, they still must pay the price for whatever they have done (and won't repent from)? "If they listen to you, you have won them over." What if they don't listen to you? Does that mean you aren't required to forgive them?
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. God knows better than we the harm we have been done. When we are asked to forgive others as we are forgiven....it is clearly meant other human beings. At least so far as I can see. I can see nowhere in scripture where we are told to forgive the demonic. Like I said, I don't see where we are on a level as living human beings...to forgive God's enemy.