Forgive your enemies and love those who persecute you

You forgiving someone says nothing about that person's sins before God. Because you forgive them so as not to harbor hate/vengeance/anger in your own heart does not mean God forgives them.
 
My forgiving your trespasses against me does not constitute God's forgiveness for your trespasses. Laugh all you like - but only God forgives sin or trespasses.
 
Silk said:
My forgiving your trespasses against me does not constitute God's forgiveness for your trespasses. Laugh all you like - but only God forgives sin or trespasses.
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Silk what are you talking about ?
You first said that if a person forgives some one that does not mean God does.
I asked you who says God is holding anything against them in the first place ?
I can go to a kmart and it can be full of unsaved people. Is God holding anything against them ? No !! We are under Grace- there will come a time if they have not made Christ Lord then yea he will hold that against them.
 
My point was clear: my forgiveness of another human beings trespass against me does not constitute God's forgiveness. There is nothing there about whether God holds that other person to sin or not. Just that my lack of forgiveness not bind me away from God. What part exactly isn't clear to you???
 
Silk said:
My point was clear: my forgiveness of another human beings trespass against me does not constitute God's forgiveness. There is nothing there about whether God holds that other person to sin or not. Just that my lack of forgiveness not bind me away from God. What part exactly isn't clear to you???
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Have a blessed day silk !!
I only replied to one thing you said........thats it.
 
Silk said:
Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. God knows better than we the harm we have been done. When we are asked to forgive others as we are forgiven....it is clearly meant other human beings. At least so far as I can see. I can see nowhere in scripture where we are told to forgive the demonic. Like I said, I don't see where we are on a level as living human beings...to forgive God's enemy.
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Since we have no power to collect damages against Demons or Satan - it does no good to "Harbor" this idea that I have the right to collect either vengeance or restitution from them....

We have also received the Word of the Lord on the matter - "Vengeance is mine saith The Lord" - thus HE has already declared that we do not have recourse in this situation.... We hold no RIGHT of retribution against Satan - God has taken that right from us.... Thus our complaints are only that - unjust complaints.

Now... I think there's a better reason WHY than we perhaps think about at first blush.....

SO... Say we continue on blaming and accusing Satan for all of our ills.... We continue to harangue and demand restitution at Satan's hand - and we become deluded into thinking that this is the right thing... That Restoration at God's hand is not good enough, I want to TAKE it from Satan.....

Knowing Satan's intelligence - should we not expect that he would stand before God and demand the RIGHT to give restitution? See - as of now, Satan has no power to grant restitution..... What would be the consequences if WE were deceived to complain endlessly and BEG God foolishly to receive what we have lost back from the hand of Satan - and we wearied God to the point that He relents says to us "Ok, but don't say I didn't tell you how this would go" .... Would Satan use that power to restore us?

I will give you a hint.... 2nd Thessalonians 2:9-11 .... Revelation 13:12-16 .... Lying wonders.... Strong delusion.... Destruction of the Saints... Coming at the hand of Satan's man...
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
John you are not actually asking me this are you ? You forgive what they did. Other wise you hold a grudge and evil and a I will pay you back type of thing. This how ever does not say they must not OWN UP TO THEIR MISTAKES OR ACTIONS....
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Let me clarify what I think you are saying if you don't mind... I need to I understand....

Are you saying forgiveness means:
I am giving up on some unenforceable "claim to collect" that which I have no right or authority to collect - the ill will, grudges, anger, feelings of disrespect, emotional turmoil, etc....

BUT - "Forgiveness" does NOT mean that I have to give up on my right to collect that which I DO have the legal right and authority to collect - damages, compensation, and physical restitution?

So... In the case of a car wreck - I can "Forgive" them but I can still sue them in court to repair my car and pay my medical bills... but I can't hate them.... Does this fulfill my obligation towards "Forgiveness"....
 
JohnC said:
SO... Say we continue on blaming and accusing Satan for all of our ills.... We continue to harangue and demand restitution at Satan's hand - and we become deluded into thinking that this is the right thing... That Restoration at God's hand is not good enough, I want to TAKE it from Satan.....

Knowing Satan's intelligence - should we not expect that he would stand before God and demand the RIGHT to give restitution? See - as of now, Satan has no power to grant restitution..... What would be the consequences if WE were deceived to complain endlessly and BEG God foolishly to receive what we have lost back from the hand of Satan - and we wearied God to the point that He relents says to us "Ok, but don't say I didn't tell you how this would go" .... Would Satan use that power to restore us?
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I don't want anything from Satan. I demand no restitution from him, I don't want to take anything from him. And I don't forgive him for anything. It's as simple as that. I don't want anything to do with him.

I believe that advocating that satan be forgiven is dangerous territory and opening up a door for him.
 
JohnC said:
Let me clarify what I think you are saying if you don't mind... I need to I understand....


Are you saying forgiveness means:

I am giving up on some unenforceable "claim to collect" that which I have no right or authority to collect - the ill will, grudges, anger, feelings of disrespect, emotional turmoil, etc....


BUT - "Forgiveness" does NOT mean that I have to give up on my right to collect that which I DO have the legal right and authority to collect - damages, compensation, and physical restitution?


So... In the case of a car wreck - I can "Forgive" them but I can still sue them in court to repair my car and pay my medical bills... but I can't hate them.... Does this fulfill my obligation towards "Forgiveness"....
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Here is an easy to grasp way to what I am saying.
We forgive them
can not hate or hold a grudge or blame and so forth
If there needs to be restitution made then allow the Holy Spirit to guide you where you may have concerns.
Example......We pay our insurance companies lots of money to drive legal. Sometimes you have to use a lawyer to get them to hold upon their end but we walk in Love at all times.
Blessings
Jim
 
JohnC said:
Say you were to seek a claim against Satan for restoration of your loss at his hand.... Does he have the POWER or ABILITY to grant you that full restoration? Say he takes your hand - does he have any power what so ever to restore that hand to you? Does Satan have the power to restore fulfillment, peace, joy, and love... How about lost family members? Does Satan have the power to restore a backslidden son or daughter BACK to faith?
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No, he will not do any of those, but...
I believe satan can be brought before the court, in which YHVH is the judge, and Christ is your advocate.
Should he hold anything that should he not have over you, then in this court of law, that something can be re-established to God or to you via God.
It might sound a bit dramatic, but forms a clear picture.
 
Arrie03 said:
No, he will not do any of those, but...
I believe satan can be brought before the court, in which YHVH is the judge, and Christ is your advocate.
Should he hold anything that should he not have over you, then in this court of law, that something can be re-established to God or to you via God.
It might sound a bit dramatic, but forms a clear picture.
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Some people just stand on thanking God to repay them 7 fold of what the devil had stolen from them. That is good enough for me.
 
JohnP said:
I don't want anything from Satan. I demand no restitution from him, I don't want to take anything from him. And I don't forgive him for anything. It's as simple as that. I don't want anything to do with him.

I believe that advocating that satan be forgiven is dangerous territory and opening up a door for him.
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I agree with not advocating forgiveness for the devil....besides there being none for him. he did not have a temptor, and was not created to make decisions as to whether or not to obey God. he was created to obey God and that is it.
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Here is an easy to grasp way to what I am saying.
We forgive them can not hate or hold a grudge or blame and so forth
If there needs to be restitution made then allow the Holy Spirit to guide you where you may have concerns.
Example......We pay our insurance companies lots of money to drive legal. Sometimes you have to use a lawyer to get them to hold upon their end but we walk in Love at all times.
Blessings
Jim
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I appreciate your clarification. I wanted to make sure you were saying what I thought you were.

Do you make any distinction between the one who fully has the means to make good on the debt - but which does not want to... and the one who has NO actual means to make good on the debt without doing harmful/destructive things like not feeding his kids?

For example should there be a distinction... 2 separate car wrecks... One with a fellow who has good insurance... Another with a fellow who is destitute and has no insurance...

Thanks
 
JohnC said:
I appreciate your clarification. I wanted to make sure you were saying what I thought you were.

Do you make any distinction between the one who fully has the means to make good on the debt - but which does not want to... and the one who has NO actual means to make good on the debt without doing harmful/destructive things like not feeding his kids?

For example should there be a distinction... 2 separate car wrecks... One with a fellow who has good insurance... Another with a fellow who is destitute and has no insurance...

Thanks
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Hi John,
The best answer I can give is simply this - Pray and seek wisdom and direction from God - Dont do anything until you hear from Him.

Now then if it is against their insurance company - well you have to remember they employ people to discourage and scare you from following through or to take a small or portion of what they really are required to pay out.
Blessings
Jim
 
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