Gloom and Doomers Abound

[Musicmaster]

I keep hearing all kinds of people, all the way from famous preachers on TV, to the average believers claiming that America is being "judged by God," that we're destined for destruction. Almost every proclamation I hear from others is akin to "Thus saith the Lord" style definitives...as if they had heard it straight from God.

Those with whom I can actually speak to when I hear them say such, I ask how they know this. The most common response is, "Well, the Lord has always taken down nations that allow great evil to take over and become the rule.

Folks, I have never known God's Sovereignty to be boxed in by how He handled other nations as a result of their evils. His being Sovereign means that He does whatsoever is His good pleasure in order to accomplish His own ends, and if the Lord is finished with America, or if He still has a purpose for America in relation to Israel and/or other nations, then He will do, again, whatsoever is His good pleasure.

Predicting what God is doing based upon the past and upon other nations, forgetting the cloud of believers still within America who are not to blame for the evils of the wicked. Roe v. Wade went down as we have been praying would happen for decades, and more prayers are being sent unto the Lord for the bringing down of the strongholds of the wicked. The Lord is well aware of His people here.

So, how about YOU? Do you fancy yourself a prophet, and thus qualified to utter what the Lord has never said one word to you about? Oh, there are those who think they have heard that from the Lord, but I would wager they also have been wrong about many other things throughout their life of faith.

Please pray that the Lord deliver this nation from the hands of the wicked, and for the pulling down of the many strongholds of the wicked built up in government, corporations, schools and our communities. Don't be like all the false prophets out there, no matter how famous and popular they may have been in the past, to this very day. Their words ring hollow when we turn our eyes ONLY unto the Lord our God, recognize and confess Him as Lord over all, and who alone has total control over all in His hands.

Amen

MM

 

[Major]

I keep hearing all kinds of people, all the way from famous preachers on TV, to the average believers claiming that America is being "judged by God," that we're destined for destruction. Almost every proclamation I hear from others is akin to "Thus saith the Lord" style definitives...as if they had heard it straight from God.

Those with whom I can actually speak to when I hear them say such, I ask how they know this. The most common response is, "Well, the Lord has always taken down nations that allow great evil to take over and become the rule.

Folks, I have never known God's Sovereignty to be boxed in by how He handled other nations as a result of their evils. His being Sovereign means that He does whatsoever is His good pleasure in order to accomplish His own ends, and if the Lord is finished with America, or if He still has a purpose for America in relation to Israel and/or other nations, then He will do, again, whatsoever is His good pleasure.

Predicting what God is doing based upon the past and upon other nations, forgetting the cloud of believers still within America who are not to blame for the evils of the wicked. Roe v. Wade went down as we have been praying would happen for decades, and more prayers are being sent unto the Lord for the bringing down of the strongholds of the wicked. The Lord is well aware of His people here.

So, how about YOU? Do you fancy yourself a prophet, and thus qualified to utter what the Lord has never said one word to you about? Oh, there are those who think they have heard that from the Lord, but I would wager they also have been wrong about many other things throughout their life of faith.

Please pray that the Lord deliver this nation from the hands of the wicked, and for the pulling down of the many strongholds of the wicked built up in government, corporations, schools and our communities. Don't be like all the false prophets out there, no matter how famous and popular they may have been in the past, to this very day. Their words ring hollow when we turn our eyes ONLY unto the Lord our God, recognize and confess Him as Lord over all, and who alone has total control over all in His hands.

Amen

MM

NO SIR. I am not a prophet. My father was a pistol so I guess that make me a "son of a gun"!

Now as to your question. We know from the Word of God that there will be a final judgment of all people at the end of history.
We also know from the Word of God that the death of Jesus was God's final punitive judgment on all who believe in Christ ….... Individuals are sometimes judged in this life, but, for Christians, all judgments are disciplinary, not destructive.

"For whom God loveth, He chastens"!

So then, "What about America as a whole?" was your question.

May I say to you first of all that God is portrayed in the Bible as sovereign over the nations and ruling them for His purposes.
Second, God tolerates sin in relation to nations up to a point, and then brings calamity.
Third, the Bible also mentions the kinds of iniquity God has in mind when He says, "the wickedness of these nations."

I suggest that you turn to the sequence of sin in Leviticus 18:20-25, where Moses refers to the sins that brought the nations of Canaan to the point of judgment. That is too long to post.

It starts with.......
1. adultery, and then
2. child sacrifice – we call it abortion,
3. and then homosexuality and finally
4. bestiality.

I know some of us do not like to consider those things, however they are IN THE BIBLE just as much as the Love of God is!

So then, in USA we have moved to the point of open approval of ......
1. adultery,
2. child-killing, and
3. homosexual intercourse.

Will the open approval of bestiality be next? Probably.

Now I am not a gloom and doom person or a prophet but I am the "Mayor of Realville"! Therefore, There is, a reason to anticipate that God would bring to ruin the nations that follow this course of corruption the way the Canaanites did.

 

[Musicmaster]

NO SIR. I am not a prophet. My father was a pistol so I guess that make me a "son of a gun"!

Now as to your question. We know from the Word of God that there will be a final judgment of all people at the end of history.
We also know from the Word of God that the death of Jesus was God's final punitive judgment on all who believe in Christ ….... Individuals are sometimes judged in this life, but, for Christians, all judgments are disciplinary, not destructive.

"For whom God loveth, He chastens"!

So then, "What about America as a whole?" was your question.

May I say to you first of all that God is portrayed in the Bible as sovereign over the nations and ruling them for His purposes.
Second, God tolerates sin in relation to nations up to a point, and then brings calamity.
Third, the Bible also mentions the kinds of iniquity God has in mind when He says, "the wickedness of these nations."

I suggest that you turn to the sequence of sin in Leviticus 18:20-25, where Moses refers to the sins that brought the nations of Canaan to the point of judgment. That is too long to post.

It starts with.......
1. adultery, and then
2. child sacrifice – we call it abortion,
3. and then homosexuality and finally
4. bestiality.

I know some of us do not like to consider those things, however they are IN THE BIBLE just as much as the Love of God is!

So then, in USA we have moved to the point of open approval of ......
1. adultery,
2. child-killing, and
3. homosexual intercourse.

Will the open approval of bestiality be next? Probably.

Now I am not a gloom and doom person or a prophet but I am the "Mayor of Realville"! Therefore, There is, a reason to anticipate that God would bring to ruin the nations that follow this course of corruption the way the Canaanites did.

You did indeed make some good points. In years past I would have gone along with the historic sense of prophesying what the Lord is doing, but have since thought better of it. I came to realize that boxing God into our compartmentalized thinking by constraining Him to how He did things in the past with other nations, that just seemed wrong to me over time. America served a special purpose that none of the ancient nations around the world ever served, which is as an ally to Israel, and in relation to the end of days and the end of the Church on this earth. A HUGE segment of Israel resides right here in America, with us being the largest melting pot of all the tribes.

Just my thinking and what I discern from studying God's sovereign ways in His dealings with the peoples of this earth.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

So, how about YOU? Do you fancy yourself a prophet, and thus qualified to utter what the Lord has never said one word to you about? Oh, there are those who think they have heard that from the Lord, but I would wager they also have been wrong about many other things throughout their life of faith.

no sir i am just a preacher being educated in the school of hard knocks. but one thing for sure Judgment is coming . yes i feel some judgement is taking place as we speak. the untied states was found upon Christen principals. do i think we are a Christian nation? if we are then the Church house would be filled on Sundays. the only thing i go by is acts 17.
30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

with the shape all nations are getting why would judgement not come we send missionaries out. it looks like missionaries needs to come to the united states .

 

[Major]

You did indeed make some good points. In years past I would have gone along with the historic sense of prophesying what the Lord is doing, but have since thought better of it. I came to realize that boxing God into our compartmentalized thinking by constraining Him to how He did things in the past with other nations, that just seemed wrong to me over time. America served a special purpose that none of the ancient nations around the world ever served, which is as an ally to Israel, and in relation to the end of days and the end of the Church on this earth. A HUGE segment of Israel resides right here in America, with us being the largest melting pot of all the tribes.

Just my thinking and what I discern from studying God's sovereign ways in His dealings with the peoples of this earth.

MM

MM......I have for a long time come to the conclusion that The USA was allowed to be a nation, was so that in the days AFTER Israel came into the Land, the USA would be in place to protect it. To me, that is what history has shown.

In 1775 what the army of George Washington was down and out, no winter cloths, no food, no ammo and was on the brink of defeat, A JEWISH banker, Haym Salomon, arraigned to give Wahington 1 Million dollars and that is the rest of the story. I t can be assumed that without the help of a Jew, we would not be the USA today.

So now......we the USA has been the protector of Gods people since 1948. We are the best ally Israel has and that IMHO is because we are a Christian Nation (at heart) and we know that those who bless Israel will be blessed.

That being said.........we also must realize that we as nation that claims to be Christian must still live in obedience to God's Word.

Now this is not my opinion........"Disobedience to God always brings judgment".
Think about Adam and Eve!!!!!!

When we want to sin against Him for the sake of sinful pleasures or obtaining something outside of His perfect will, we tend to shift our entire focus away from the consequences that may come with the bad choices we’re about to make by believing somehow we are above them and choices of sin always brings judgment!

To me......right or wrong, that is the position we as a nation have placed ourself in.

 

[Musicmaster]

MM......I have for a long time come to the conclusion that The USA was allowed to be a nation, was so that in the days AFTER Israel came into the Land, the USA would be in place to protect it. To me, that is what history has shown.

In 1775 what the army of George Washington was down and out, no winter cloths, no food, no ammo and was on the brink of defeat, A JEWISH banker, Haym Salomon, arraigned to give Wahington 1 Million dollars and that is the rest of the story. I t can be assumed that without the help of a Jew, we would not be the USA today.

So now......we the USA has been the protector of Gods people since 1948. We are the best ally Israel has and that IMHO is because we are a Christian Nation (at heart) and we know that those who bless Israel will be blessed.

That being said.........we also must realize that we as nation that claims to be Christian must still live in obedience to God's Word.

Now this is not my opinion........"Disobedience to God always brings judgment".
Think about Adam and Eve!!!!!!

When we want to sin against Him for the sake of sinful pleasures or obtaining something outside of His perfect will, we tend to shift our entire focus away from the consequences that may come with the bad choices we’re about to make by believing somehow we are above them and choices of sin always brings judgment!

To me......right or wrong, that is the position we as a nation have placed ourself in.

Major, I understand your POV on that. Two things I'd like to put forth:

1) How do we gauge that God is finished with the US being Israel's ally and protector...never minding the current stance of the Leftist movement in Washington? How do we make that determination apart from someone daring to step up and declare himself a prophet of God and stating, "Thus saith the Lord...."?

2) Generally speaking, when people utter the inclusive 'we' in the sins of this nation, they cannot seriously think that the truly Bible-believing Church in America is in league with all that. If one says that God is in the process of bringing down damning judgement upon all of America for the sins of the minority, I'm left again with asking those people who appointed them prophets of God to speak in a manner that is the equivalent of "Thus saith the Lord...."

It was one thing for the majority of the Israelites to be worshipping false gods in the high places, and God sending REAL prophets to warn the nation, but quite another to say what God is doing right now without the appointment and authority of a true prophet. The cessationists should all be turning over in their graves, while all others walk in lock step with declarations that can only come from a prophet of God based upon such authority being placed upon him by God.

Yes, I agree that there are indicators of problems with evil strongholds being built up in the USA, and that there are many prayers being offered up daily for the pulling down of those strongholds. Given that they are not being pulled down in what we would consider a timely manner, what is God doing, and what are His plans? Who among us can say for sure either way? Questions with no answers, other than for one to look back into history at what happened to others nations in the distant past who were not ever Christian nations.

So, one last question is, 'Is God, therefore, finished with America? If so, then how can we know that is the case without speaking of that with the caveat of admitting ignorance of God's plans for America?'

There is a famous preacher over in California who is speaking like a prophet, with America almost down into the licking flames of Hell, and yet he is an avid cessationist. Figure that one out....

MM

 

[BibleLover]

it looks like missionaries needs to come to the united states .

The Anglican Archbishops of Rwanda and Singapore have ordained and commissioned a group of Anglican priests to come to the US to establish the Anglican Mission to America. America's hedonistic heathen society has captured the attention of the normally liberal Angican communion.

 

[Major]

Major, I understand your POV on that. Two things I'd like to put forth:

1) How do we gauge that God is finished with the US being Israel's ally and protector...never minding the current stance of the Leftist movement in Washington? How do we make that determination apart from someone daring to step up and declare himself a prophet of God and stating, "Thus saith the Lord...."?

2) Generally speaking, when people utter the inclusive 'we' in the sins of this nation, they cannot seriously think that the truly Bible-believing Church in America is in league with all that. If one says that God is in the process of bringing down damning judgement upon all of America for the sins of the minority, I'm left again with asking those people who appointed them prophets of God to speak in a manner that is the equivalent of "Thus saith the Lord...."

It was one thing for the majority of the Israelites to be worshipping false gods in the high places, and God sending REAL prophets to warn the nation, but quite another to say what God is doing right now without the appointment and authority of a true prophet. The cessationists should all be turning over in their graves, while all others walk in lock step with declarations that can only come from a prophet of God based upon such authority being placed upon him by God.

Yes, I agree that there are indicators of problems with evil strongholds being built up in the USA, and that there are many prayers being offered up daily for the pulling down of those strongholds. Given that they are not being pulled down in what we would consider a timely manner, what is God doing, and what are His plans? Who among us can say for sure either way? Questions with no answers, other than for one to look back into history at what happened to others nations in the distant past who were not ever Christian nations.

So, one last question is, 'Is God, therefore, finished with America? If so, then how can we know that is the case without speaking of that with the caveat of admitting ignorance of God's plans for America?'

There is a famous preacher over in California who is speaking like a prophet, with America almost down into the licking flames of Hell, and yet he is an avid cessationist. Figure that one out....

MM

#1.
I am sure I understand what you are asking. I do not know how to gauge such a thing, but I will say that You will know when the USA stops defending Israel.

There is NO such thing today as a prophet. However, it does not take a prophet to declare the Word of God. All it takes is reading the word and then saying what it says.

Remember that After God had established Israel as a nation, God warned them about the national blessings of obedience and the national curses for disobedience. God warned them that if they rejected God, He would reject them and they would (and eventually did) end up in bondage to other nations. They refused to listen to the many prophets God sent, warning them to repent or face the judgment of God. If we ignore the Written Word's of God then God words to ancient Israel apply to any nation of the world, that “if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth” (Deut 28:1), however these blessings are conditional. There must be obedience, and if there is, “all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God” (Deut 28:2).

#2.
The church may not be in league with sinfull decisions made by our government, but then again it just may be.
We have elections every 4 years and by and large the Church votes. So then, how can a truly born again believer who is a member of a Christian church vote for anyone who is in favor of homosexual marriages and abortion?????

Either they are NOT born again or their Church has not taught them the Bible doctines at all. If it did they could not place those kinds of people into positions of authority. The government IS THE PEOPLE!

I know you are a believer, you (and I) will suffer because of someone else’s sin or national sins, where a nation turns it’s back on God.

Daniel the Prophet was beloved by God, but he also was taken away into captivity because of the national sins of Judah.

How often I’ve heard unbelievers say after a great natural disaster or accident, “Where was God?”
I say, “Don’t you remember…you kicked Him out! You kicked God out of the government, the schools, and the public square, so where was God? You kicked Him out of your lives, remember?”

If there was ever a good time for national repentance, it is now. May God sweep this land with His Spirit and create new hearts of flesh where there were hearts of stone…hearts soft and pliable and open to the Word of God. This could be God’s “last call” for the nation and people to repent.

That is not a prophetic call.......it is simply relaying the Word of God.

You asked me............
'Is God, therefore, finished with America? If so, then how can we know that is the case without speaking of that with the caveat of admitting ignorance of God's plans for America?'

As I said.........I am not a prophet and there are none anyway. Is God finished with USA???? I have no idea! I do know that God judged Sodom for much less.

I do know that God has and will be against any nation that continues living in wanton disobedience. Every nation is at risk for God’s chastening and removal of His blessings. We can’t single out the United States alone. Just look around you. It seems the whole world needs to repent and fast and pray and seek after God. Today, God is using pastors, authors, and believers to warn the unsaved world and nations that God’s judgment is sure to come, and that is not being prophetic and it will be swift and severe.

Unless this nation or any nation turns back to God, He will turn His back on them. When that happens, God’s hedge of protection and blessings are removed and replaced with curses. After God’s blessings and hedge of protection are gone, just about anything is possible: Economic depression, inflation, plagues, disease, natural disasters, droughts, floods, fires, earthquakes, and famine. Any of that sound familier???? Of course, widespread famine brings death. Today is the best of days to trust in Christ (2 Cor 6:2), and since no one knows what tomorrow may bring, and a person’s life can suddenly be snuffed out, there will be a sure and certain judgment (Heb 9:27) unless you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved (Rom 10:9-13).

 

[Major]

The Anglican Archbishops of Rwanda and Singapore have ordained and commissioned a group of Anglican priests to come to the US to establish the Anglican Mission to America. America's hedonistic heathen society has captured the attention of the normally liberal Angican communion.

50 years ago, Dr. Billy Graham wrote............
"I believe that only 25% of all church members are really born again".

 

[forgiven61]

50 years ago, Dr. Billy Graham wrote............
"I believe that only 25% of all church members are really born again".

i hope he was wrong

 

[forgiven61]

that America is being "judged by God," that we're destined for destruction.

if i may ask why do you not agree? i mean we just about the same as condone all forms of homosexuality's . were a nation just about same with abortion . imo the only thing keeping it from being full blown. is those truly born again . its doom and gloom for the lost. also in M.O we are at the 11:59 time frame. the final click will be when God says

 

[blueskies]

Dr. Billy Graham wrote............
"I believe that only 25% of all church members are really born again

Dear Major,

This is perhaps marginally related to the topic, but you just happen to mention a quote attributed to the late Dr. Billy Graham that I was interested in at one time.

I had seen the “85% are unsaved or lost” line quoted and occasionally as a definitive reference attributed to Dr. Graham, although often in slightly varying forms and details.

In trying to verify this quote I have found the following references among others and thought you might this useful.

“In 2010 Jeff Philips wrote about those Lost in the Church: “Many including myself have quoted Billy Graham regarding a percentage, and the quotes range from 50% of church members up to 85% of church members being lost. Problem is, no one can find a source for Billy Graham saying anything like this. However, people like George Barna, Bill Bright, George Truett, W.A. Criswell and R.G. Lee have all been cited of believing at least 50% of those who hold church membership in protestant denominations are indeed lost.”

Upon some further sleuthing I eventually found this very interesting reference:

“Damon Olson, a pastor from Sand Mountain, Alabama, came back with this response which he received from the Graham organization”:
"We appreciate your inquiry concerning a quote attributed to Mr. Graham. Unfortunately, though we hear this question from time to time, we do not have any further information confirming that Mr. Graham ever claimed that a high percentage of church members (as much as 85%) are not saved."

I was never able to find a credible source for this quote and thought you might find this interesting.

God Bless you and those you love.

 

[forgiven61]

I was never able to find a credible source for this quote and thought you might find this interesting.

it could be something he said in a message never repeated again. or it could be he quoted from another minister he heard.

 

[Major]

Dear Major,

This is perhaps marginally related to the topic, but you just happen to mention a quote attributed to the late Dr. Billy Graham that I was interested in at one time.

I had seen the “85% are unsaved or lost” line quoted and occasionally as a definitive reference attributed to Dr. Graham, although often in slightly varying forms and details.

In trying to verify this quote I have found the following references among others and thought you might this useful.

“In 2010 Jeff Philips wrote about those Lost in the Church: “Many including myself have quoted Billy Graham regarding a percentage, and the quotes range from 50% of church members up to 85% of church members being lost. Problem is, no one can find a source for Billy Graham saying anything like this. However, people like George Barna, Bill Bright, George Truett, W.A. Criswell and R.G. Lee have all been cited of believing at least 50% of those who hold church membership in protestant denominations are indeed lost.”

Upon some further sleuthing I eventually found this very interesting reference:

“Damon Olson, a pastor from Sand Mountain, Alabama, came back with this response which he received from the Graham organization”:
"We appreciate your inquiry concerning a quote attributed to Mr. Graham. Unfortunately, though we hear this question from time to time, we do not have any further information confirming that Mr. Graham ever claimed that a high percentage of church members (as much as 85%) are not saved."

I was never able to find a credible source for this quote and thought you might find this interesting.

God Bless you and those you love.

You may be correct. I had "heard/read" that figure and accepted it as true without investigating it as it sounded really correct to me.

Since your post I did do a little investigating and found this.............
" W. A. Criswell would be surprised to see even 25% of his church members in heaven. Dr. Bob Gray, longtime pastor of the prestigious Trinity Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida, once said that probably 75% of those he baptized were not saved. Billy Graham puts the figure at 85% while A. W. Tozer and Southern Baptist consultant Jim Elliff raise it to 90%.”

In 2010 Jeff Philips wrote about those Lost in the Church: “Many including myself have quoted Billy Graham regarding a percentage, and the quotes range from 50% of church members up to 85% of church members being lost. Problem is, no one can find a source for Billy Graham saying anything like this. However, people like George Barna, Bill Bright, George Truett, W.A. Criswell and R.G. Lee have all been cited of believing at least 50% of those who hold church membership in protestant denominations are indeed lost.”

To summarise these numbers, here are the percentages of unsaved Christian believers, or church members, as stated by the various people:

50% (or more) are not saved:

– Dr. Rod Bell, president of the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America

– Bob Jones Senior, US evangelist, pioneer religious broadcaster and founder of Bob Jones University

– Dr. Monroe Parker, US Baptist evangelist, college president, and mission board director

– George Barna, former Executive Director of the American Culture & Faith Institute

– Bill Bright, US evangelist, author and founder of Campus Crusade for Christ

– George Truett, former president of the US Southern Baptist Convention

– R.G. Lee, former pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee

– E. J. Daniels, US Southern Baptist pastor, evangelist and broadcaster

65% are not saved:

– Vance Havner, US Southern Baptist pastor and travelling evangelist

75% are not saved:

– Dr. B. R. Lakin, US Baptist preacher and evangelist

– W. A. Criswell, former president of the US Southern Baptist Convention

– Dr. Bob Gray, long-time pastor of Trinity Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Florida

– Dr. Dan Hawtree, a respected evangelist who is best known in Florida

80% are not saved:

– Shelton Jones, broadcaster and minister from North Carolina

– Dr J. Harold Smith, US Southern Baptist, evangelist and broadcaster

85% are not saved:

– Dr. Billy Graham, US evangelist (although there is no clear record of him saying this)

90% are not saved:

– Dr. A. W. Tozer, US pastor, author, magazine editor, and spiritual mentor

– Jim Elliff, Southern Baptist consultant, president of Christian Communicators Worldwide

– D. L. Moody, 19th century US evangelist and founder of the Moody Bible Institute

– R. A. Torrey, US evangelist and pastor

95% (or maybe 98%) are not saved:

– Leonard Ravenhill, English evangelist and author

Almost 100% are not saved

– Richard Hole, an Australian concerned that mainstream Christianity is not working

Comments

I have listed all of these people, not because the majority of them are or have been influential in Christian circles, but to show that the idea that many believers are not truly saved is widespread and has been around for a long time.

Although there is no clear record of Billy Graham saying that 85% of believers in the church were lost, I was told by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association that 75% of those who responded to his evangelism were likely to be lost. They said that they based this estimate on the parable of the sower, with seed falling in four places: on the path, rocky ground, among weeds and on good ground. This estimate appears to be biblical but Jesus did not say that equal amounts of seed fell in the four places.

Except for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, people do not say what evidence or reasoning has been used in order to make their estimates of the number of people who might be saved or unsaved in their church or in churches generally. I assume that they base their estimates on the behaviour of believers, whether or not their behaviour shows evidence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Because of the lack of evidence, we do not know how accurate these estimates are."

Source: https://unsavedbeliever.net/index.php/how-many-are-not-saved/
Source: [email protected]

 

[Musicmaster]

#1.
I am sure I understand what you are asking. I do not know how to gauge such a thing, but I will say that You will know when the USA stops defending Israel.

There is NO such thing today as a prophet. However, it does not take a prophet to declare the Word of God. All it takes is reading the word and then saying what it says.

Remember that After God had established Israel as a nation, God warned them about the national blessings of obedience and the national curses for disobedience. God warned them that if they rejected God, He would reject them and they would (and eventually did) end up in bondage to other nations. They refused to listen to the many prophets God sent, warning them to repent or face the judgment of God. If we ignore the Written Word's of God then God words to ancient Israel apply to any nation of the world, that “if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth” (Deut 28:1), however these blessings are conditional. There must be obedience, and if there is, “all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God” (Deut 28:2).

Hmm. I'm sure we can agree that America is not Israel, so what He commanded of them, to my thinking, still doesn't box God in with any requirement to treat our nation as a whole as if we are all guilty and worthy of destruction. That makes no sense to me. We're not told that the Israelites offered up prayers for the pulling down of the evil strongholds in their country, but we know that today there many prayers for that very thing here in America and abroad, across the world.

So, interestingly, when we had a reprieve with Trump in office, everyone was more optimistic about our nation's position in relation to God's judgements. Now that we have what's in there now, it's all gloom and doom, in spite of this:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God.

So, the Lord ordained this guy in office now, who that verse said is from God, and the Congress, and for reasons we can only speculate, and so He's going to punish all the rest of us for that? Someone is bound to say that the Lord gave to us what we asked for, what we deserve. Really? I would have to ask upon what basis that statement can be made as credible, and therefore worthy of belief. The Church in America is comprised of many of the tribes of Israel thought to be lost, and whom the Lord will one day call back into the land. We are not the ones who put that guy in power, but God has a purpose, all of which is independent of being boxed in by past actions.

Another avenue we can observe in this is that where it was lawful to stone adulterers before the passing of the Cup of the New Covenant, we no longer follow those laws nor those patterns, and yet we box God in with His own past actions? I hope you can understand why I question all this with serious misgivings about any assumption of authority over what God is going to do with this nation, or any other.

The church may not be in league with sinfull decisions made by our government, but then again it just may be.
We have elections every 4 years and by and large the Church votes. So then, how can a truly born again believer who is a member of a Christian church vote for anyone who is in favor of homosexual marriages and abortion?????

But we also know that there was some serious forces at play to do what appears to have been a stealing of the election, with the scanning of alleged "ballots" after the poll watchers were ushered out under a false claim of a water leak, and our voting results sent to some company offshore to do the tally, and then tell us the results, and thus no questions whatsoever of those results. No. God allowed all this for reasons that only He knows, and so I do not at all presume that the TRUE members of the body of Christ, rather than all those liberal pretenders out there, can be held guilty for what they did not do.

Now, I will totally agree with you if, and only if, we have some definitive measure of the hearts (since THAT is what the Lord looks upon), by which we can know that the Church in America has been subdued with evil...the very Church we were promised the gates of Hell would never prevail against.

Apart from that, I remain stoically resistant to any prophetic declarations made on the basis of a past the Lord has never been bound to repeat apart from His own Sovereign Will. If it is His will that America go down, there's nothing any of us can do or say that will change that. However, I still uphold the fact that the Gates of Hell cannot withstand the Church, and if those gates are now truly impervious against the Church, we may then consider rendering the Bible null and void. I also uphold the fact that the Church is pure and unblemished by the taint of sin given that she wears the white garment given her by the Lord. It is (c)hurches that compromise and do evil in the sight of the Lord, not the (C)hurch.

Either they are NOT born again or their Church has not taught them the Bible doctines at all. If it did they could not place those kinds of people into positions of authority. The government IS THE PEOPLE!

You're right. The institutional system has and does fail, and miserably so. That's just the nature of what is man-made. The Church, having been established by the Lord Himself, she is pure and without blemish. I'm somewhat convinced that we can agree on that.

I know you are a believer, you (and I) will suffer because of someone else’s sin or national sins, where a nation turns it’s back on God.

And we also serve a Lord who is able to shield His people from the impacts to punish the evils of the evil people. Not saying that there won't be fall-out to the rest of us, but we are representatives of another Kingdom, under the provisions of another King and Lord who owns cattle on a thousand hills that have never been rustled by any force nor power on this earth. That is my faith.

Daniel the Prophet was beloved by God, but he also was taken away into captivity because of the national sins of Judah.

True, and in that captivity, the Lord provided wonderfully for him, even though he wasn't necessarily where he personally wanted to be.

How often I’ve heard unbelievers say after a great natural disaster or accident, “Where was God?”
I say, “Don’t you remember…you kicked Him out! You kicked God out of the government, the schools, and the public square, so where was God? You kicked Him out of your lives, remember?”

Well, at least the THINK they kicked Him out, but in reality, He has been there all along working in and through lives we can't see with our natural eyes.

If there was ever a good time for national repentance, it is now. May God sweep this land with His Spirit and create new hearts of flesh where there were hearts of stone…hearts soft and pliable and open to the Word of God. This could be God’s “last call” for the nation and people to repent.

Amen!

I do know that God has and will be against any nation that continues living in wanton disobedience. Every nation is at risk for God’s chastening and removal of His blessings. We can’t single out the United States alone. Just look around you. It seems the whole world needs to repent and fast and pray and seek after God. Today, God is using pastors, authors, and believers to warn the unsaved world and nations that God’s judgment is sure to come, and that is not being prophetic and it will be swift and severe.

Unless this nation or any nation turns back to God, He will turn His back on them. When that happens, God’s hedge of protection and blessings are removed and replaced with curses. After God’s blessings and hedge of protection are gone, just about anything is possible: Economic depression, inflation, plagues, disease, natural disasters, droughts, floods, fires, earthquakes, and famine. Any of that sound familier???? Of course, widespread famine brings death. Today is the best of days to trust in Christ (2 Cor 6:2), and since no one knows what tomorrow may bring, and a person’s life can suddenly be snuffed out, there will be a sure and certain judgment (Heb 9:27) unless you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved (Rom 10:9-13).

I'm so thankful for the Sovereignty of the Lord in all things, Whose Hands are not tied by any force, even history and His written word when it was not inspired to be written that He will deal with all future nations that go the same path. We still love and pray for Israel, for in that we are blessed, and will continue to be blessed by a Lord who promised such blessing. What evil men in Government do does not change the fact that we are doing what He promised will bring blessing to us.

Now, those who dabble in replacement theologies, I cannot say what will happen to them. They are on their own....

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

50 years ago, Dr. Billy Graham wrote............
"I believe that only 25% of all church members are really born again".

One would think that statement alone, if that guy is to be taken seriously, which I don't, would have forced some serious restructuring of the institutional system of churches. Instead, the status quo prevails in most cases...perhaps.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I also take into consideration the masses of true believers out here who are not members of the institutional system because of its inherent failings. Most assume that non-institutionalized population was holistically abused somehow, and left for that reason. Frankly, that's a feeble attempt at avoiding any admission of the inherently massive problems with the institutionalized model, and its susceptibility to being a reflection of the world and its wickedness and lack of values and morality.

MM

 

[blueskies]

Because of the lack of evidence, we do not know how accurate these estimates are."

Dear Major, thank you for your investigation. These are indeed sobering estimates and, as forgiven61 wrote, I hope they are wrong.

I pray that God Almighty is more generous in the day of judgment of His flock than many of these church leaders!

God Bless you Major and all those you love.

 

[forgiven61]

I also take into consideration the masses of true believers out here who are not members of the institutional system because of its inherent failings. Most assume that non-institutionalized population was holistically abused somehow, and left for that reason. Frankly, that's a feeble attempt at avoiding any admission of the inherently massive problems with the institutionalized model, and its susceptibility to being a reflection of the world and its wickedness and lack of values and morality.

MM

man has created the mess there is problems in the NON institutional system. why do i say that? because human beings are there

 

[Major]

Hmm. I'm sure we can agree that America is not Israel, so what He commanded of them, to my thinking, still doesn't box God in with any requirement to treat our nation as a whole as if we are all guilty and worthy of destruction. That makes no sense to me. We're not told that the Israelites offered up prayers for the pulling down of the evil strongholds in their country, but we know that today there many prayers for that very thing here in America and abroad, across the world.

So, interestingly, when we had a reprieve with Trump in office, everyone was more optimistic about our nation's position in relation to God's judgements. Now that we have what's in there now, it's all gloom and doom, in spite of this:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God.

So, the Lord ordained this guy in office now, who that verse said is from God, and the Congress, and for reasons we can only speculate, and so He's going to punish all the rest of us for that? Someone is bound to say that the Lord gave to us what we asked for, what we deserve. Really? I would have to ask upon what basis that statement can be made as credible, and therefore worthy of belief. The Church in America is comprised of many of the tribes of Israel thought to be lost, and whom the Lord will one day call back into the land. We are not the ones who put that guy in power, but God has a purpose, all of which is independent of being boxed in by past actions.

Another avenue we can observe in this is that where it was lawful to stone adulterers before the passing of the Cup of the New Covenant, we no longer follow those laws nor those patterns, and yet we box God in with His own past actions? I hope you can understand why I question all this with serious misgivings about any assumption of authority over what God is going to do with this nation, or any other.




But we also know that there was some serious forces at play to do what appears to have been a stealing of the election, with the scanning of alleged "ballots" after the poll watchers were ushered out under a false claim of a water leak, and our voting results sent to some company offshore to do the tally, and then tell us the results, and thus no questions whatsoever of those results. No. God allowed all this for reasons that only He knows, and so I do not at all presume that the TRUE members of the body of Christ, rather than all those liberal pretenders out there, can be held guilty for what they did not do.

Now, I will totally agree with you if, and only if, we have some definitive measure of the hearts (since THAT is what the Lord looks upon), by which we can know that the Church in America has been subdued with evil...the very Church we were promised the gates of Hell would never prevail against.

Apart from that, I remain stoically resistant to any prophetic declarations made on the basis of a past the Lord has never been bound to repeat apart from His own Sovereign Will. If it is His will that America go down, there's nothing any of us can do or say that will change that. However, I still uphold the fact that the Gates of Hell cannot withstand the Church, and if those gates are now truly impervious against the Church, we may then consider rendering the Bible null and void. I also uphold the fact that the Church is pure and unblemished by the taint of sin given that she wears the white garment given her by the Lord. It is (c)hurches that compromise and do evil in the sight of the Lord, not the (C)hurch.



You're right. The institutional system has and does fail, and miserably so. That's just the nature of what is man-made. The Church, having been established by the Lord Himself, she is pure and without blemish. I'm somewhat convinced that we can agree on that.



And we also serve a Lord who is able to shield His people from the impacts to punish the evils of the evil people. Not saying that there won't be fall-out to the rest of us, but we are representatives of another Kingdom, under the provisions of another King and Lord who owns cattle on a thousand hills that have never been rustled by any force nor power on this earth. That is my faith.



True, and in that captivity, the Lord provided wonderfully for him, even though he wasn't necessarily where he personally wanted to be.



Well, at least the THINK they kicked Him out, but in reality, He has been there all along working in and through lives we can't see with our natural eyes.



Amen!



I'm so thankful for the Sovereignty of the Lord in all things, Whose Hands are not tied by any force, even history and His written word when it was not inspired to be written that He will deal with all future nations that go the same path. We still love and pray for Israel, for in that we are blessed, and will continue to be blessed by a Lord who promised such blessing. What evil men in Government do does not change the fact that we are doing what He promised will bring blessing to us.

Now, those who dabble in replacement theologies, I cannot say what will happen to them. They are on their own....

MM

That is a lot to digest and respond to. All I can say is that YES, the true church of God's called believers will have the victory. However, what we see in "Church" today is that in name only. Again I say that if the church was the called of God and voted as God would have voted, then we would not have place homosexuals and child killers in places of authority.

That confirm for me that "Satan is power of the air" today. What happens when Satan has contol......................
1. You will go your own way
2. You will find the wrong companions
3. You will make the wrong decisions

Isn't that exactly what the USA has done?????

Your premise of God still here is of course correct. But that is not the point. The point of the thread was about "doom and gloom" being prophetic. That, I do not agree with. Preaching and teaching the judgment of God is not doom and gloom but truth.

God being in control is also not the issue as we all know that He is and always has been. However, things happen because God allow it to happen and men do what they want to do because they love the world and sin more than they do God.