Gloom and Doomers Abound

Major said:
We should purge from our minds the idea that the local church is anything more than a group of Christian PEOPLE who are in fellowship with one another working together toward common objectives. When the word church is used, the emphasis is always on the people; upon individual Christians. Consider just a few passages to underscore this thought.
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agreed
 
Major said:
Then you have my sincere apology for a wrong assumption!
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Brother, no apology necessary. Most people make that assumption. It's very common...thinking that the reason people leave he institutional system is because of having been hurt. Granted, many have been hurt, but I don't think that's the major reason (no pun intended).

My conversations with many, many people who have walked away from the institutional model has been mostly along two lines of thought:

1) The institutional system, like everything else that is based and built upon the foundation of money, are needing more and more of it all the time.
2) The second reason, although not inferior in numbers by any means as to how many state this, they don't feel connected, and therefore a vital part of the overall body experience. They desire something more intimate than to do the impossible, which is to fellowship with the backs of other people's heads.

Those I have come into contact with have been very receptive to something whereby, when they come together, they can actually function like a family, and where they can discover what it means to live out mutual edification rather than everything being centered around praise, contrived worship and never-ending sermons. Some sermons, they say, have been good, but the constant search for topics and content drives many sermons into being dry and without relevance to their life experiences out here in the culture.

Thanks for the great conversation over all this. I'd enjoy others chiming in and sharing their life and love for the gathering of believers.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Brother, no apology necessary. Most people make that assumption. It's very common...thinking that the reason people leave he institutional system is because of having been hurt. Granted, many have been hurt, but I don't think that's the major reason (no pun intended).

My conversations with many, many people who have walked away from the institutional model has been mostly along two lines of thought:

1) The institutional system, like everything else that is based and built upon the foundation of money, are needing more and more of it all the time.
2) The second reason, although not inferior in numbers by any means as to how many state this, they don't feel connected, and therefore a vital part of the overall body experience. They desire something more intimate than to do the impossible, which is to fellowship with the backs of other people's heads.

Those I have come into contact with have been very receptive to something whereby, when they come together, they can actually function like a family, and where they can discover what it means to live out mutual edification rather than everything being centered around praise, contrived worship and never-ending sermons. Some sermons, they say, have been good, but the constant search for topics and content drives many sermons into being dry and without relevance to their life experiences out here in the culture.

Thanks for the great conversation over all this. I'd enjoy others chiming in and sharing their life and love for the gathering of believers.

MM
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Blessing to you my brother!;)
 
Major said:
Now as for me and you make be correct however, the Church, good or bad, is the institution (Your words) that God established.

Then when I think about it, the church is actually NOT an institution at all.

We should purge from our minds the idea that the local church is anything more than a group of Christian PEOPLE who are in fellowship with one another working together toward common objectives. When the word church is used, the emphasis is always on the people; upon individual Christians. Consider just a few passages to underscore this thought.

Acts 5:11, So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
Acts 8:1, …At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered…
Acts 8:3, As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.
Acts 11:22, Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

Just some thoughts that came to me to clarify this conversation.
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Actually, Major, I do not make the mistake of confusing the institutional system with the (C)hurch. They are not at all interchangeable nor synonymous with one another. Unbelievers populate many of the seats of the institutional systems of (c)hurches. The (C)hurch is the only one of the two that is God-breathed and therefore totally free of any and all unbelievers (those who are not born again). The institutional system, in its form and love for real estate, things and the programmatic way of meeting together, that all originated from men. Protestantism mostly has no clue as to just how Roman Catholic they really are in form and function, no matter how much it may disagree with the doctrines of that religion.

MM
 
Major said:
We should purge from our minds the idea that the local church is anything more than a group of Christian PEOPLE who are in fellowship with one another working together toward common objectives. When the word church is used, the emphasis is always on the people; upon individual Christians. Consider just a few passages to underscore this thought.

Acts 5:11, So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
Acts 8:1, …At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered…
Acts 8:3, As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.
Acts 11:22, Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

Just some thoughts that came to me to clarify this conversation.
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Good point. There is indeed, and always has been, the concept of the 'local church.' The Church in Thessalonica, for example, was all the believers in that city. They most generally met in homes rather than to pour their resources into real estate and all the luxuries the institutional system of today lavishes upon itself. The ancient, local churches were comprised mostly of slaves, the poor, and a few wealthy. There was no middle class like we see today in America, and especially where those our government classifies as living in 'poverty' are living FAR better than most of the ancient peoples we read about in the Bible.

It's always astounded me how ignorant people are these days to see those who are said to be living in poverty in America, and yet are so morbidly obese and VASTLY more healthy than the ancients who were living in poverty in those days and cultures.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
1) The institutional system, like everything else that is based and built upon the foundation of money, are needing more and more of it all the time.
2) The second reason, although not inferior in numbers by any means as to how many state this, they don't feel connected, and therefore a vital part of the overall body experience. They desire something more intimate than to do the impossible, which is to fellowship with the backs of other people's heads.
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i can see this in your bigger church's some small churches are controlled by family. the bigger the church the bigger the budget soon you have a music pastor children's pastor associate pastors and the reg pastor and i also realize this is one sided conversation . but i dont see church as a institutional system, and if it is its not a true Church
 
Major said:
Blessing to you my brother!;)
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Oh, I forgot one other thing.....I agree with you that some of the (C)hurch populates some of the seats within (c)hurches. No doubt. It's sobering to think that only 25% of those warming the seats within (c)hurches are saved, born again believers.
 
Major said:
That is a lot to digest and respond to. All I can say is that YES, the true church of God's called believers will have the victory. However, what we see in "Church" today is that in name only. Again I say that if the church was the called of God and voted as God would have voted, then we would not have place homosexuals and child killers in places of authority.

That confirm for me that "Satan is power of the air" today. What happens when Satan has contol......................
1. You will go your own way
2. You will find the wrong companions
3. You will make the wrong decisions

Isn't that exactly what the USA has done?????

Your premise of God still here is of course correct. But that is not the point. The point of the thread was about "doom and gloom" being prophetic. That, I do not agree with. Preaching and teaching the judgment of God is not doom and gloom but truth.

God being in control is also not the issue as we all know that He is and always has been. However, things happen because God allow it to happen and men do what they want to do because they love the world and sin more than they do God.
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Actually, my premise is that, yes, the Lord is here with us, as always, and He will not destroy this nation in judgement except that it be in accordance with His own purposes. Please keep in mind that I already assume we're in agreement on the basics such as this, so I'm not trying to lecture you. I say these things for the benefit of the broader audience.

Something else that I so appreciate about our Lord is His ability to judge with precision; meaning that He can level His judgement and wrath with surgical precision against the evil elements in this nation rather than to destroy His own Church in the process. He may indeed allow the destruction of the religious system of churches in America, but never the Church. Our institutional churches are filled (not meaning that all within are unsaved) with unregenerate, non-born again people who warm the seats and pews.

So, if destroying this nation will serve His purposes, then it will be, and I will not fear in it, for the Lord is our Provider and Sustainer. If He surgically brings down the evil, wicked, vermin scumbags (who are that way by choice), then He will do so to His glory. That is my confidence, rather than to sit back and grandiosely prophesy that God is through with America, as I have heard some famous preachers declare on their nationwide TV shows and online videos, and in books, etc. The Church is large in America, and this one nation is the only spot on earth where the ten northern tribes reside in the greatest concentration of mix. Not even Europe, Asia and the Middle East has the concentration that exists here. That has meaning and also profound implications. After all, I'm one of them....

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Actually, my premise is that, yes, the Lord is here with us, as always, and He will not destroy this nation in judgement except that it be in accordance with His own purposes. Please keep in mind that I already assume we're in agreement on the basics such as this, so I'm not trying to lecture you. I say these things for the benefit of the broader audience.

Something else that I so appreciate about our Lord is His ability to judge with precision; meaning that He can level His judgement and wrath with surgical precision against the evil elements in this nation rather than to destroy His own Church in the process. He may indeed allow the destruction of the religious system of churches in America, but never the Church. Our institutional churches are filled (not meaning that all within are unsaved) with unregenerate, non-born again people who warm the seats and pews.

So, if destroying this nation will serve His purposes, then it will be, and I will not fear in it, for the Lord is our Provider and Sustainer. If He surgically brings down the evil, wicked, vermin scumbags (who are that way by choice), then He will do so to His glory. That is my confidence, rather than to sit back and grandiosely prophesy that God is through with America, as I have heard some famous preachers declare on their nationwide TV shows and online videos, and in books, etc. The Church is large in America, and this one nation is the only spot on earth where the ten northern tribes reside in the greatest concentration of mix. Not even Europe, Asia and the Middle East has the concentration that exists here. That has meaning and also profound implications. After all, I'm one of them....

MM
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I do not think that God is going to destroy the USA anymore than he is Australia or England. Personally.......after the Rapture, IMO the USA will be no better than a 3rd world country. By then, chaos will take over as the A/C will be in charge and God will in the end judge all nations.

Now when you here some preachers say that "God is through with America", that is nothing more that talking points in a sermon topic.

I would think that the sheer population of Jews can live in freedom here would allow them great numbers but I do not know.

I am reminded of Romans 8:1.........

“If God be for us, who can be against us?”—Romans 8:31.​

Then I also remember a sermon that Charles Spurgeon gave where he said.........
"the little word “If,” as a sentinel. No man, therefore, has any right to the treasures of this text, unless he can give the pass-word d, and answer the question. It is not every man who can say that God is on his side; on the contrary. the most of men are fighting against the Lord. By nature we are the friends of sin, and then God is against us; with all the powers of justice he is against us for our destruction unless we turn and repent. Is God for us? Remember he is so if we have been reconciled to him by the death of his Son; but an absolute God must be in arms against us, for even our God is a consuming fire. "

Hmmmm. That is something to consider....ya think??

Source: Charles Haddon Spurgeon July 17, 1864Scripture: Romans 8:31- Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 10
 
I think just concentrate on your relationship with God. When there's clouds, they are only temporary - the sun is always there behind them.

Believers have a destiny in heaven no matter what is going on in the world around them. Leave the judging to God. He knows everything, we are not called to judge on matters only He can judge.

Some people watch too much tv (and 'famous' preachers) and they get riled up over a lot of hot air. If you are a messianic jew, bully for you. You have an extra burden, but just be salt and light to everyone else as Jesus directs. If there's darkness, be a light.
 
Major said:
Now when you here some preachers say that "God is through with America", that is nothing more that talking points in a sermon topic.
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i dont feel he is through with America even though we are headed in the wrong direction. a lot of this can be turned around
 
Major said:
I do not think that God is going to destroy the USA anymore than he is Australia or England. Personally.......after the Rapture, IMO the USA will be no better than a 3rd world country. By then, chaos will take over as the A/C will be in charge and God will in the end judge all nations.

Now when you here some preachers say that "God is through with America", that is nothing more that talking points in a sermon topic.

I would think that the sheer population of Jews can live in freedom here would allow them great numbers but I do not know.

I am reminded of Romans 8:1.........

“If God be for us, who can be against us?”—Romans 8:31.​

Then I also remember a sermon that Charles Spurgeon gave where he said.........
"the little word “If,” as a sentinel. No man, therefore, has any right to the treasures of this text, unless he can give the pass-word d, and answer the question. It is not every man who can say that God is on his side; on the contrary. the most of men are fighting against the Lord. By nature we are the friends of sin, and then God is against us; with all the powers of justice he is against us for our destruction unless we turn and repent. Is God for us? Remember he is so if we have been reconciled to him by the death of his Son; but an absolute God must be in arms against us, for even our God is a consuming fire. "

Hmmmm. That is something to consider....ya think??

Source: Charles Haddon Spurgeon July 17, 1864Scripture: Romans 8:31- Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Volume 10
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Yeah, life would be miserable if it weren't for the fact that God is in control...all the time.

MM
 
I've lived though spiritual depression and many many people have lived through an economic depression. When things are dark, Jesus always shines a light. He is our hope and salvation. So keep your eyes fixed on Him.
 
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