Gloom and Doomers Abound

I also take into consideration the masses of true believers out here who are not members of the institutional system because of its inherent failings. Most assume that non-institutionalized population was holistically abused somehow, and left for that reason. Frankly, that's a feeble attempt at avoiding any admission of the inherently massive problems with the institutionalized model, and its susceptibility to being a reflection of the world and its wickedness and lack of values and morality.

MM

I would say that people left the church (If that is what you are calling "institutional system") simply because they were never born again to begin with.

When the excitement of what they did wore off, there were NO roots put down so when the wind blew........off they went.

To me it is just like the fan of a football team. When it is winning then everyone is excited. But when it is losing, then people begin to moan and grown and complain and stop attending the games.
 
Dear Major, thank you for your investigation. These are indeed sobering estimates and, as forgiven61 wrote, I hope they are wrong.

I pray that God Almighty is more generous in the day of judgment of His flock than many of these church leaders!

God Bless you Major and all those you love.

Agreed. But remember......the real flock of called believers who are born again do not have to worry about judgment.
 
Hmm. I'm sure we can agree that America is not Israel, so what He commanded of them, to my thinking, still doesn't box God in with any requirement to treat our nation as a whole as if we are all guilty and worthy of destruction. That makes no sense to me. We're not told that the Israelites offered up prayers for the pulling down of the evil strongholds in their country, but we know that today there many prayers for that very thing here in America and abroad, across the world.

So, interestingly, when we had a reprieve with Trump in office, everyone was more optimistic about our nation's position in relation to God's judgements. Now that we have what's in there now, it's all gloom and doom, in spite of this:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God.

So, the Lord ordained this guy in office now, who that verse said is from God, and the Congress, and for reasons we can only speculate, and so He's going to punish all the rest of us for that? Someone is bound to say that the Lord gave to us what we asked for, what we deserve. Really? I would have to ask upon what basis that statement can be made as credible, and therefore worthy of belief. The Church in America is comprised of many of the tribes of Israel thought to be lost, and whom the Lord will one day call back into the land. We are not the ones who put that guy in power, but God has a purpose, all of which is independent of being boxed in by past actions.

Another avenue we can observe in this is that where it was lawful to stone adulterers before the passing of the Cup of the New Covenant, we no longer follow those laws nor those patterns, and yet we box God in with His own past actions? I hope you can understand why I question all this with serious misgivings about any assumption of authority over what God is going to do with this nation, or any other.




But we also know that there was some serious forces at play to do what appears to have been a stealing of the election, with the scanning of alleged "ballots" after the poll watchers were ushered out under a false claim of a water leak, and our voting results sent to some company offshore to do the tally, and then tell us the results, and thus no questions whatsoever of those results. No. God allowed all this for reasons that only He knows, and so I do not at all presume that the TRUE members of the body of Christ, rather than all those liberal pretenders out there, can be held guilty for what they did not do.

Now, I will totally agree with you if, and only if, we have some definitive measure of the hearts (since THAT is what the Lord looks upon), by which we can know that the Church in America has been subdued with evil...the very Church we were promised the gates of Hell would never prevail against.

Apart from that, I remain stoically resistant to any prophetic declarations made on the basis of a past the Lord has never been bound to repeat apart from His own Sovereign Will. If it is His will that America go down, there's nothing any of us can do or say that will change that. However, I still uphold the fact that the Gates of Hell cannot withstand the Church, and if those gates are now truly impervious against the Church, we may then consider rendering the Bible null and void. I also uphold the fact that the Church is pure and unblemished by the taint of sin given that she wears the white garment given her by the Lord. It is (c)hurches that compromise and do evil in the sight of the Lord, not the (C)hurch.



You're right. The institutional system has and does fail, and miserably so. That's just the nature of what is man-made. The Church, having been established by the Lord Himself, she is pure and without blemish. I'm somewhat convinced that we can agree on that.



And we also serve a Lord who is able to shield His people from the impacts to punish the evils of the evil people. Not saying that there won't be fall-out to the rest of us, but we are representatives of another Kingdom, under the provisions of another King and Lord who owns cattle on a thousand hills that have never been rustled by any force nor power on this earth. That is my faith.



True, and in that captivity, the Lord provided wonderfully for him, even though he wasn't necessarily where he personally wanted to be.



Well, at least the THINK they kicked Him out, but in reality, He has been there all along working in and through lives we can't see with our natural eyes.



Amen!



I'm so thankful for the Sovereignty of the Lord in all things, Whose Hands are not tied by any force, even history and His written word when it was not inspired to be written that He will deal with all future nations that go the same path. We still love and pray for Israel, for in that we are blessed, and will continue to be blessed by a Lord who promised such blessing. What evil men in Government do does not change the fact that we are doing what He promised will bring blessing to us.

Now, those who dabble in replacement theologies, I cannot say what will happen to them. They are on their own....

MM
You said...........
"Hmm. I'm sure we can agree that America is not Israel, so what He commanded of them, to my thinking, still doesn't box God in with any requirement to treat our nation as a whole as if we are all guilty and worthy of destruction. That makes no sense to me. We're not told that the Israelites offered up prayers for the pulling down of the evil strongholds in their country, but we know that today there many prayers for that very thing here in America and abroad, across the world."

Agreed. USA is not Israel. What God promised Israel does not apply to the USA or the church.

Now, I did not say and do not think that we as a nation are worthy to be destroyed. I do not know of anyone who is praying for America to be pulled down or destroyed.

And YES, Israel prayed for evil rulers to be removed, over and over.

Again, this is not doom and gloom, but in my conclusion......and observations, the government of the United States of America is currently failing to hate evil, love good, and establish justice. The government is accepting evil, even loving evil. Lady Justice is lifting the blindfold so that one eye can see who is being accused, and then she often fails to render justice. There is one standard of justice for the politically connected, powerful and wealthy, and another standard of law for everyone else.
 
hmm i read more into the o.p than what i will say.. but if we go around finding fault with everything.. could part of it no be us also? talking with the forklift driver at work.. he was down on his church. its a mega Church all he could say was probably biggest majority was there for show.. then he had rip at his pastor. i have always been a pastor advocate its not a easy job.

a lady went to her pastor sunday after church. telling him she was leaving the Church.. she then proceeded to inform him all the problems cell phones in use the list kept growing.. he then told her your right. we do have all these problems . he then asked her if she would walk around the church. with a glass of water with out spilling any of it.. she agreed thinking this will be a easy task.. she made her round no problem.. the pastor asked did you see any of these problems in your walk? she said NO he then told her why. she was focused on not spilling any of the water.


moral of the story if we will focus on our walk. we wont see any of the problems... yes judgement is coming we been warned i think the theme song for many today is I DID IT MY WAY
 
I would say that people left the church (If that is what you are calling "institutional system") simply because they were never born again to begin with.

When the excitement of what they did wore off, there were NO roots put down so when the wind blew........off they went.

To me it is just like the fan of a football team. When it is winning then everyone is excited. But when it is losing, then people begin to moan and grown and complain and stop attending the games.

I fully agree. Many people have indeed left the institutional model because of their not having been born again.

Not me, though. I left the institutional model behind because of its inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away. Therein is why I fully agree with you that the (c)hurch(es) have failed to remain a godly influence in society and culture.

You, I and many other here, we are members of a (C)hurch that has not ever failed, and never will. There is no blemish upon the (C)hurch because no unbeliever nor non-born again person can become a part of her. She is beautiful and glorious.

MM
 
I left the institutional model behind because of its inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away.
as in what ? i mean its hard to understand your point . not knowing what you mean by inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms. why not discuss these things
 
as in what ? i mean its hard to understand your point . not knowing what you mean by inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms. why not discuss these things

I fully agree. Many people have indeed left the institutional model because of their not having been born again. Not me, though. I left the institutional model behind because of its inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away. Therein is why I fully agree with you that the (c)hurch(es) have failed to remain a godly influence in society and culture. You, I and many other here, we are members of a (C)hurch that has not ever failed, and never will. There is no blemish upon the (C)hurch because no unbeliever nor non-born again person can become a part of her. She is beautiful and glorious.
MM

Hello Musicmaster;

I'm going to share from my heart what noone has yet to say to you. I'm truly sorry for your experiences in the church. Your view of the "institutional models" that expose it's inflexibilities, man-centeredness, anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away is sad, brother.

Is this why for the last (23 years?) you were led to worship in a home church gathering? Praise God for the church you worship. If its been this long then I'm also sorry you still feel this way about the churches you paint as broken models of worship.

I also have witnessed pieces of what you described and have heard worse by pastors and leaders I've spoken to. Still, when I attend the church I pastored and other churches I preached and visited in and out of the state, I see a different picture;

Each church has it's share of problems but above it all I have seen the joy in it's members despite the challenges and difficulties that will still come. The world has it's troubles but I'm talking specifically about the church and the people in it. I truly believe when God gives us joy it's not an option, but His command reference Matthew 5:12, Luke 6:23 and John 16:33.

In Acts 1:13 the upper room had it's first church gathering but in Acts 8 it was scattered by a worse event of persecution led by Paul. The worst of times in the church was going on even back then.

The extreme setbacks that has or had gone on in the church, it's always been about people and God has seen all and everyone throughout the world and especially in His churches. For this I'm relieved by our God and what He already knows.

Speaking for myself, I'm not a doomer and gloomer but an optimist in the True Church. I'm grateful I'm a part of it and despite the setbacks today, I'm going to do my part to encourage hope and joy not on church circumstances (which will always exist,) but remain still in our hope and joy on Jesus who is the Way, Truth and Life of our faith.

Again, MM, I'm sorry for your view of the church.

Your brother in Christ,
Bob
 
there is no perfect church .but there Churches who try to put forth a effort .i have seen many things experienced many set backs. yes i have threatened to throw the towel in. turned right around went back at . i have had people get made at me over denominational name , ive been told your truly called but i think they want someone more laid back. in all that the Church yes even the institutional is a good place to be . i would be happy to read your story . even in home church settings there can be problems.
 
I fully agree. Many people have indeed left the institutional model because of their not having been born again.

Not me, though. I left the institutional model behind because of its inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away. Therein is why I fully agree with you that the (c)hurch(es) have failed to remain a godly influence in society and culture.

You, I and many other here, we are members of a (C)hurch that has not ever failed, and never will. There is no blemish upon the (C)hurch because no unbeliever nor non-born again person can become a part of her. She is beautiful and glorious.

MM

I agree with that. It has been man who has ruined the "institutional" church of God. The real church is unblemished as you stated and that is the one that is going to be Raptured.

I would only say that in defense of the "institutional" church, it is one of the ways, maybe the easiest way to serve the Lord and do things that help others. Many people have gone out on their own and done great ministry works on their own and done well. That is the hard way to go for sure.

I did several missionary trips when younger, but my wife has never been a heathly person and I knew that that path was impossible for us. That is why we worked with in the confines of the local institutional church. It has been a blessing to us and we are glad we chose that path.

I do understand however what you are saying.
 
I fully agree. Many people have indeed left the institutional model because of their not having been born again.

Not me, though. I left the institutional model behind because of its inflexibilities, man-centeredness and many other anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away. Therein is why I fully agree with you that the (c)hurch(es) have failed to remain a godly influence in society and culture.

You, I and many other here, we are members of a (C)hurch that has not ever failed, and never will. There is no blemish upon the (C)hurch because no unbeliever nor non-born again person can become a part of her. She is beautiful and glorious.

MM
Now, may I say to you on a very personal level.........I have not known you all that long and then only here by your writings. However, I have been lead to say to you that I have not known a more sincere believer who is as articulate and knowledgeable as you are in a long time. You have shown a heart for God that is without question.

However, it is also apparent to me that you have had a really bad experience with a church or a pastor or both. Maybe I am wrong and you are free to tell me to mind my own business.

If that is the case.......... I as a minister of God am very sorry and I apologize to you for any grief that has befallen you and I ask the Lord Jesus to bless you and help you through what ever it is. YOU are a good man, a great Christian and I love you for who you are and what you are doing.

If I can ever be of any help to you at all, PM me at anytime.
 
there is no perfect church .but there Churches who try to put forth a effort .i have seen many things experienced many set backs. yes i have threatened to throw the towel in. turned right around went back at . i have had people get made at me over denominational name , ive been told your truly called but i think they want someone more laid back. in all that the Church yes even the institutional is a good place to be . i would be happy to read your story . even in home church settings there can be problems.

You are correct. Churches are like a family. They look good when dressed up but live with one awhile and the cracks show up.
 
Not sure how to respond to this except to say am not a prophet -- although we all can prophesy when the Lord gives us a prophecy --

The thing is in the Bible prophets often DID prophecy bad things would happen if Israel didn't repent and obey the Lord. And they did.

But the thing now is that God has given us the gospel and its by grace we are saved through faith - we just need to repent and believe. And this is open for ANYBODY not just Israelites. Cos Jesus died for all.

There are now many Israelites or Jewish who are coming to Christ even after centuries of tradition of denying Him. So..?

Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Yes its frustrating but thats the way it is sometimes.
 
Hello Musicmaster;

I'm going to share from my heart what noone has yet to say to you. I'm truly sorry for your experiences in the church. Your view of the "institutional models" that expose it's inflexibilities, man-centeredness, anomalies and paradigms that simply will not ever pass away is sad, brother.

Is this why for the last (23 years?) you were led to worship in a home church gathering? Praise God for the church you worship. If its been this long then I'm also sorry you still feel this way about the churches you paint as broken models of worship.

Greetings, brother.

I knew that what I said would strike a nerve in those who do not subscribe to the weaknesses and problems with the institutional model. In many cases, the anomalies are not necessarily intentional. I don't think that most ministers apply for the job in order to perpetuate the natural outflows from that model.

The institutional model is very much like a weak dam. Many a well-intentioned man rents the equipment to move enough earth to build a dam out of the local soils, and he uses a design specification and dimension model of build in the dam design that is known to inevitably fail once the waters begin to build up behind it.

How does this relate to the institutional model? Well, dams inherently serve the purpose of holding back water, and when the model and build is of a design that has inherent flaws, the result is most generally the same with all that have that design. In churchianity, the designs vary here and there, thus providing a differing flavor, tone and focus, and even variations in material (doctrines), but they all have a number of things on common that they cannot (or will not in most cases) change.

So, no. I have no been burned by one or more of the ones where I have served as someone from a mere layman to a pastor. No. What I began to see is the lack of functionality among the believers. When I asked of the Lord why this is...why we are not, within the institutional model as a whole, doing as Paul instructed as the prime purpose for the gathering of believers, (and the heading of this section of scripture in my KJV version states "INSTRUCTIONS TO THE CHURCH:"

1 Corinthians 14:26 What is it then, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has another language, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to build each other up.

See that? Mutual edification. THAT is the prime, biblical purpose for the gathering of believers.

It's inevitable that this has been, and will continue to be, even among many here, waved aside as something that can and does happen in 'cell groups,' or whatever other name each (c)hurch organization may choose to call their home groupings. That setting aside of the most important statement that reveals the purpose for the gathering, it is routinely minimalized, and even trivialized in the minds and hearts of those within churchianity. Why? Because of the god of 'tradition'.

Remember Jesus' statements about tradition?

Matthew 15:3, 6
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ...
6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:8-9, 13
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ...
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

It's never a comfortable thing to think of myself as guilty, in any measure, of these things, so what do I do? I deny my own guilt. After all, that's the natural, self defense thing to do. Deny, deny, deny...and yet I am guilty of these things. Paul's instructions to the Church are very straightforward, and the sheer magnitude of intellectual dishonesty many vomit in an attempt to deflect guilt...well, I too was a chief among sinners.

So, as has been stated in other posts, churchianity is comprised of about 25% born again believers, with the other 75% being...what? Unbelievers? Unregenerate? Lost? Bound for Hell? (shrug) I donno. Suffice it to say that holding believers captive (which is what many of them want) to ineffective silence, not allowed their birthright of mutual edification apart from allowing that only in the context of home meetings, mandated by the god of 'order,' that's just one of many outflows from an inferior design, which, as many have admitted in these forums, has utterly failed to remain the influence it is thought to have once had in the past.

So, when I see and hear gloom and doomers laying the blame at the feet of the institutional (c)hurch, all I can do is raise my eyebrows in recognition and acquiescence to their statement, especially when it's uttered from behind a pulpit (dam) that was and is constructed to the same, traditional specification that has a track record for failure due to the inherent weaknesses.

Some here just don't see it, and that's ok. I do not demand that everyone search these things to the depths that I have been led to see by the very Hand of the Lord, for it is He who led me on the journey of discovery. I wasn't prepared for what He showed to me, and therefore not careful about what I asked for. The resistance among the staunch traditionalists out there has been powerful and packed with emotion. I don't seek anyone's pity for what never happened to me. I was never burned in any of them. I was fully accepted so long as I was on the bandwagon of groupthink. Once I hopped off, that is when I was labeled as a 'lone star Christian."

I may be a lone star in some respects, but that has helped to ensure I'm not a part of the 75% population some have declared unsaved within the four walls of churchianity.


I also have witnessed pieces of what you described and have heard worse by pastors and leaders I've spoken to. Still, when I attend the church I pastored and other churches I preached and visited in and out of the state, I see a different picture;

It wasn't until the Lord led me on that journey out through the wilderness that I then went back to some of them and saw what I had never seen before. It was in that wilderness where I threw aside my religious crutches, and falling flat on my face in the dust is what it took for me to see what I had never discerned before. I don't blame any others for not seeing what I have been shown. It took the Hand of the Divine to open my eyes to the things hidden away from my blindness. That's who stiff-necked I was, the only difference being that I asked of the Lord, and was amazed at His answer.

Each church has it's share of problems but above it all I have seen the joy in it's members despite the challenges and difficulties that will still come. The world has it's troubles but I'm talking specifically about the church and the people in it. I truly believe when God gives us joy it's not an option, but His command reference Matthew 5:12, Luke 6:23 and John 16:33.

I assume you mean the institutions when you speak of "the church" since you did not capitalize the "c". Yes. I too was aware of their imperfections, but, my, my, what the Lord showed to me the things of His word about all this, and the reality of what's out there, that is when my understanding was blasted with how little I knew about the harsh realities.

Again, MM, I'm sorry for your view of the church.

I don't try to present myself as a victim, because I am not. My view is what I consider to be His View...or as close to His View as I am able to grasp.

Please understand that I do not tear down, and then build nothing back up in its place here in the arena of spirit and intellect. I point only to the word of God, and the Spirit of the Lord, to reveal to those who dare to ask. I don't expect others to merely take my word for it, but to seek out the same Lord, and let Him speak to each one as He sees fit. This isn't a journey akin to one size fits all. Not everyone can handle truths that contradict their chosen beliefs.

Blessings to you and yours.

MM
 
Now, may I say to you on a very personal level.........I have not known you all that long and then only here by your writings. However, I have been lead to say to you that I have not known a more sincere believer who is as articulate and knowledgeable as you are in a long time. You have shown a heart for God that is without question.

However, it is also apparent to me that you have had a really bad experience with a church or a pastor or both. Maybe I am wrong and you are free to tell me to mind my own business.

If that is the case.......... I as a minister of God am very sorry and I apologize to you for any grief that has befallen you and I ask the Lord Jesus to bless you and help you through what ever it is. YOU are a good man, a great Christian and I love you for who you are and what you are doing.

If I can ever be of any help to you at all, PM me at anytime.

No, brother. I have never had a bad experience within the institutional model. It was me, and me alone, who had within me a deep stirring for something more, and to know the Heart of God about these things.

I've said this before, and have said it again, there is no grief or bad memories of my years within the institutional model.

MM
 
I agree with that. It has been man who has ruined the "institutional" church of God. The real church is unblemished as you stated and that is the one that is going to be Raptured.

I would only say that in defense of the "institutional" church, it is one of the ways, maybe the easiest way to serve the Lord and do things that help others. Many people have gone out on their own and done great ministry works on their own and done well. That is the hard way to go for sure.

I did several missionary trips when younger, but my wife has never been a heathly person and I knew that that path was impossible for us. That is why we worked with in the confines of the local institutional church. It has been a blessing to us and we are glad we chose that path.

I do understand however what you are saying.

Thanks, brother. Your post brought to mind the savagery of paganism the First Century Church was up against, and through the home-based model that was doing as Paul instructed in 1 Corinthians 14, the Church grew in leaps and bounds all across the Middle East and Asia Minor, and westward into Europe.

Now, I look at the savagery of paganism around us today, at the institutional model, and observe the powerlessness, and thus the lack of succeeding at the level of the early Church. So, what I would say to that is...models matter. It's obviously not the size of each modeled entity, but rather the level of functionality of those within each of the two models. Empowerment through mutual edification and filling of Holy Spirit are the powerful forces at work in the early Church.

Good stuff, brother. Good stuff indeed.

MM
 
Not sure how to respond to this except to say am not a prophet -- although we all can prophesy when the Lord gives us a prophecy --

The thing is in the Bible prophets often DID prophecy bad things would happen if Israel didn't repent and obey the Lord. And they did.

But the thing now is that God has given us the gospel and its by grace we are saved through faith - we just need to repent and believe. And this is open for ANYBODY not just Israelites. Cos Jesus died for all.

There are now many Israelites or Jewish who are coming to Christ even after centuries of tradition of denying Him. So..?

Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Yes its frustrating but thats the way it is sometimes.
NOPE..............God gave us the Bible in which He has said all He wanted to say. Anything said by a man today must be found in the written Word of God or it is false.
 
No, brother. I have never had a bad experience within the institutional model. It was me, and me alone, who had within me a deep stirring for something more, and to know the Heart of God about these things.

I've said this before, and have said it again, there is no grief or bad memories of my years within the institutional model.

MM

Then you have my sincere apology for a wrong assumption!
 
I knew that what I said would strike a nerve in those who do not subscribe to the weaknesses and problems with the institutional model. In many cases, the anomalies are not necessarily intentional. I don't think that most ministers apply for the job in order to perpetuate the natural outflows from that model.

The institutional model is very much like a weak dam. Many a well-intentioned man rents the equipment to move enough earth to build a dam out of the local soils, and he uses a design specification and dimension model of build in the dam design that is known to inevitably fail once the waters begin to build up behind it.
personally i have no issue with you seeking something different and im glad you didnt have a bad experience with a pastor or things going on with in. i dont consider my self a institutional person.. just a blood bought child of the king saved by grace . like any i have my flaws. as per attending Church i am pro bono %100. imo i dont see it as weak the only weakness is us with out Christ i will say its not all weak .i will only speak for me i dont preach what thus saith the denom says. i preach the word... the Body of Christ has got to come together and realize its not about us. i wish you nothing but God speed
 
No, brother. I have never had a bad experience within the institutional model. It was me, and me alone, who had within me a deep stirring for something more, and to know the Heart of God about these things.

I've said this before, and have said it again, there is no grief or bad memories of my years within the institutional model.

MM

Now as for me and you make be correct however, the Church, good or bad, is the institution (Your words) that God established.

Then when I think about it, the church is actually NOT an institution at all.

We should purge from our minds the idea that the local church is anything more than a group of Christian PEOPLE who are in fellowship with one another working together toward common objectives. When the word church is used, the emphasis is always on the people; upon individual Christians. Consider just a few passages to underscore this thought.

Acts 5:11, So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
Acts 8:1, …At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered…
Acts 8:3, As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house, and dragging off men and women, committing them to prison.
Acts 11:22, Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

Just some thoughts that came to me to clarify this conversation.
 
I think if you having problems/issues with a church nobody is going to fault you if you leave or take time out for a while. I think in the olden days with some churches, it was horrible as the church and state where exactly the same and you would be shunned or imprisoned if you tried to leave, like it was a cult or something.

Unfortunately, wolves have always tried to get in the door disguised in sheeps clothing. Right from the early days. The thing is YOU keep fellowship with God and the church is all around - it's a living, breathing body of Christ. He knows who's are His.
 
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