God's Judgements Upon the West Because of a Hand Full of People?

[Musicmaster]

Here's another opportunity for everyone to exercise critical thinking skills:

It's a very popular belief among so many popular, well-known preachers and their followers that God is going to punish all of America for the evils on her soil perpetrated by only a hand full of people. They've gone so far as to include all of the West in general, even though the hand full of people who have the loudest voice in media, and the media giants themselves, can be directly targeted by the Lord's perfect justice in order to bring about their downfall!

It's almost as if those who profess belief in Christ are of the mind that, because believers in general are not taking up a sword and slicing off the ears of the "temple guards" AND the purveyors of wickedness, that God is therefore going to throw His Church into the swirling pool of His "judgement upon America!"

Let's see now, what is it that we can read in scripture that these famous and popular preachers and their followers fail to see and to admit for fear of thinking that God is OTHER than what they assume:

Genesis 18:23, 25
23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ...
25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Abraham was not struck dead for daring to declare what is right, especially the the very One who is always right, in all things!

Ah, but, then, the purveyors of their own understanding of God will say that He simply sits back and lets evil take its natural course, and therefore the horrors that come upon the righteous are the consequences of evil rather than it all bring a matter of the Lord intentionally doing the destruction by His own Hand...

Is not God Sovereign over all? Did not the Lord take total responsibility for His allowance for the fall of man into sin by sending His only begotten Son as a means by which ALL of mankind could escape the penalties of sin? How, then, can anyone assume the Lord is going to allow the consequences of evil to overtake, swallow up and destroy His Church in the West?

Again, I can hear the voices now..."But the church has failed to hold back the tide of those evil forces..."

Frankly, that's such a limited and inferior view of what the Church truly is within this universe. The Church is not churches...you know, those man-made things most call "the church." Those things that are called "the church" are indeed failing to retain the influence they once enjoyed. That alone demonstrates to the observant on-looker that what mankind creates stands or falls on the basis of the strength of man's own arm, not that of the Lord.

The Church was called to be...what?

Salt and light, not a sword of force against the wicked and evil hearts out there who, at times, gain the high ground of popularity and voice in media.

Do you see what's really going on? The enemy of our souls loves his narrative being the dominant theme in sermons, Christian radio and television, publications, and live speaking to audiences from pulpits! He wants the saltiness and brightness of the light of the Church (who are His people rather than those organizations) to simply give in to the cesspool of negative-ism, gloom and doom of modern, "Christian" media and sermons. This is our opportunity to shine and be the savor of salt to a world of darkness that is lacking in savor.

So, is not God fully capable of bringing down "fire" upon those who are the creators and purveyors of this kind of rubbish, as well as those who place this trash on the shelves of libraries for children to read? Is not God able to take down all the politicians, coucels, boards and media giant owners who stand against the removal of this kind of trash?

I lift up my hands of praise unto the One who does have the Power and Might to lead and fight this battle on our behalf!

 

[kdm1984]

Here's another opportunity for everyone to exercise critical thinking skills:

It's a very popular belief among so many popular, well-known preachers and their followers that God is going to punish all of America for the evils on her soil perpetrated by only a hand full of people. They've gone so far as to include all of the West in general, even though the hand full of people who have the loudest voice in media, and the media giants themselves, can be directly targeted by the Lord's perfect justice in order to bring about their downfall!

It's almost as if those who profess belief in Christ are of the mind that, because believers in general are not taking up a sword and slicing off the ears of the "temple guards" AND the purveyors of wickedness, that God is therefore going to throw His Church into the swirling pool of His "judgement upon America!"

Let's see now, what is it that we can read in scripture that these famous and popular preachers and their followers fail to see and to admit for fear of thinking that God is OTHER than what they assume:

Genesis 18:23, 25
23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ...
25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Abraham was not struck dead for daring to declare what is right, especially the the very One who is always right, in all things!

Ah, but, then, the purveyors of their own understanding of God will say that He simply sits back and lets evil take its natural course, and therefore the horrors that come upon the righteous are the consequences of evil rather than it all bring a matter of the Lord intentionally doing the destruction by His own Hand...

Is not God Sovereign over all? Did not the Lord take total responsibility for His allowance for the fall of man into sin by sending His only begotten Son as a means by which ALL of mankind could escape the penalties of sin? How, then, can anyone assume the Lord is going to allow the consequences of evil to overtake, swallow up and destroy His Church in the West?

Again, I can hear the voices now..."But the church has failed to hold back the tide of those evil forces..."

Frankly, that's such a limited and inferior view of what the Church truly is within this universe. The Church is not churches...you know, those man-made things most call "the church." Those things that are called "the church" are indeed failing to retain the influence they once enjoyed. That alone demonstrates to the observant on-looker that what mankind creates stands or falls on the basis of the strength of man's own arm, not that of the Lord.

The Church was called to be...what?

Salt and light, not a sword of force against the wicked and evil hearts out there who, at times, gain the high ground of popularity and voice in media.

Do you see what's really going on? The enemy of our souls loves his narrative being the dominant theme in sermons, Christian radio and television, publications, and live speaking to audiences from pulpits! He wants the saltiness and brightness of the light of the Church (who are His people rather than those organizations) to simply give in to the cesspool of negative-ism, gloom and doom of modern, "Christian" media and sermons. This is our opportunity to shine and be the savor of salt to a world of darkness that is lacking in savor.

So, is not God fully capable of bringing down "fire" upon those who are the creators and purveyors of this kind of rubbish, as well as those who place this trash on the shelves of libraries for children to read? Is not God able to take down all the politicians, coucels, boards and media giant owners who stand against the removal of this kind of trash?

I lift up my hands of praise unto the One who does have the Power and Might to lead and fight this battle on our behalf!

One of the things I really like about theologically conservative Lutheran churches in the United States is they don't get overly caught up in North American current events.

That's not to say we're ignorant about them, or that they never receive comment ever. But that's never the primary focus of the sermons.

I do know what you're talking about, though. In Pentecostal, some Baptist, some 'Non-denominational' (who are almost always a mix of Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs), and even a few LCMS, the message of "gloom for the West because of its awful politics" often takes the place of teaching the Bible itself from the preachers.

North Americans would do well to be less self-centered at times.

I learned today that one of our members from New Zealand has never even heard of Jordan Peterson, let alone what he speaks against.

North America's "culture wars" of the moment aren't bigger than Christ and His Word. So we shouldn't make that our primary focus.

 

[Major]

Here's another opportunity for everyone to exercise critical thinking skills:

It's a very popular belief among so many popular, well-known preachers and their followers that God is going to punish all of America for the evils on her soil perpetrated by only a hand full of people. They've gone so far as to include all of the West in general, even though the hand full of people who have the loudest voice in media, and the media giants themselves, can be directly targeted by the Lord's perfect justice in order to bring about their downfall!

It's almost as if those who profess belief in Christ are of the mind that, because believers in general are not taking up a sword and slicing off the ears of the "temple guards" AND the purveyors of wickedness, that God is therefore going to throw His Church into the swirling pool of His "judgement upon America!"

Let's see now, what is it that we can read in scripture that these famous and popular preachers and their followers fail to see and to admit for fear of thinking that God is OTHER than what they assume:

Genesis 18:23, 25
23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? ...
25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Abraham was not struck dead for daring to declare what is right, especially the the very One who is always right, in all things!

Ah, but, then, the purveyors of their own understanding of God will say that He simply sits back and lets evil take its natural course, and therefore the horrors that come upon the righteous are the consequences of evil rather than it all bring a matter of the Lord intentionally doing the destruction by His own Hand...

Is not God Sovereign over all? Did not the Lord take total responsibility for His allowance for the fall of man into sin by sending His only begotten Son as a means by which ALL of mankind could escape the penalties of sin? How, then, can anyone assume the Lord is going to allow the consequences of evil to overtake, swallow up and destroy His Church in the West?

Again, I can hear the voices now..."But the church has failed to hold back the tide of those evil forces..."

Frankly, that's such a limited and inferior view of what the Church truly is within this universe. The Church is not churches...you know, those man-made things most call "the church." Those things that are called "the church" are indeed failing to retain the influence they once enjoyed. That alone demonstrates to the observant on-looker that what mankind creates stands or falls on the basis of the strength of man's own arm, not that of the Lord.

The Church was called to be...what?

Salt and light, not a sword of force against the wicked and evil hearts out there who, at times, gain the high ground of popularity and voice in media.

Do you see what's really going on? The enemy of our souls loves his narrative being the dominant theme in sermons, Christian radio and television, publications, and live speaking to audiences from pulpits! He wants the saltiness and brightness of the light of the Church (who are His people rather than those organizations) to simply give in to the cesspool of negative-ism, gloom and doom of modern, "Christian" media and sermons. This is our opportunity to shine and be the savor of salt to a world of darkness that is lacking in savor.

So, is not God fully capable of bringing down "fire" upon those who are the creators and purveyors of this kind of rubbish, as well as those who place this trash on the shelves of libraries for children to read? Is not God able to take down all the politicians, coucels, boards and media giant owners who stand against the removal of this kind of trash?

I lift up my hands of praise unto the One who does have the Power and Might to lead and fight this battle on our behalf!

We have had this discussion before on a similar thread.

It is not about......will God judge the USA for what she has allowed. It is about, will God judge SIN!

That is what Genesis 25 is about! The fact is, when it rains, everyone gets wet!

Did God judge the world in Genesis 6?
Did God judge Sonom and Gomorrah?

Personally, I do not think that preaching the coming events in teh Revelation is doom and gloom as much as I believe it is the truth of what is found in the Word of God.

IF it is written int he Bible then the Lord must have had in mind that we talk about it, and yes, warn those of what is coming.

 

[Major]

One of the things I really like about theologically conservative Lutheran churches in the United States is they don't get overly caught up in North American current events.

That's not to say we're ignorant about them, or that they never receive comment ever. But that's never the primary focus of the sermons.

I do know what you're talking about, though. In Pentecostal, some Baptist, some 'Non-denominational' (who are almost always a mix of Baptist and Pentecostal beliefs), and even a few LCMS, the message of "gloom for the West because of its awful politics" often takes the place of teaching the Bible itself from the preachers.

North Americans would do well to be less self-centered at times.

I learned today that one of our members from New Zealand has never even heard of Jordan Peterson, let alone what he speaks against.

North America's "culture wars" of the moment aren't bigger than Christ and His Word. So we shouldn't make that our primary focus.

With all due respect, what you call "self-centered", many of us would call "INDIVIDUALISM".

What I see is a source of our entrepreneurial spirit, self-reliance and geographic mobility.

When comparing countries, It seems to me that greater levels of individualism are linked to more generosity — not less.

Consider WW1. Who came to the aid of the world?
What about WW2. Wasn't it the same USA who came to the aid of the world?
Wasn't it the USA who came to the aid of S. Korea?

When there is an earthquake or natural disaster in other parts of the world, isn't it the USA who show up 1st to offer aid?

 

[Siloam]

My wife tells me that a little country church had a prayer group that prayed for the coal mine where her father scratched out a living to cave-in because they thought he was a unbeliever. That would have harmed not only him but the whole of my wife's family.

I do know that my father had my mother take us kids to church while he stayed home because the church did not approve of his occupation (he designed missiles for the military).

I really do not see how taking such stances promotes the Kingdom.

 

[kdm1984]

With all due respect, what you call "self-centered", many of us would call "INDIVIDUALISM".

What I see is a source of our entrepreneurial spirit, self-reliance and geographic mobility.

When comparing countries, It seems to me that greater levels of individualism are linked to more generosity — not less.

Consider WW1. Who came to the aid of the world?
What about WW2. Wasn't it the same USA who came to the aid of the world?
Wasn't it the USA who came to the aid of S. Korea?

When there is an earthquake or natural disaster in other parts of the world, isn't it the USA who show up 1st to offer aid?

Ah yes, Ayn Rand individualism.

The thing that led me AWAY from God, the thing that led me AWAY from church, the thing that led me to think I didn't need any man or church or government or anything to teach me, the thing that led me to think I was better than God, that all I needed was ME MYSELF AND I.

It's too much of a cancer in the West. Every bit as evil as Marxism.

 

[kdm1984]

My parents taught me I didn't NEED church. When I struggled with pornography, they asked me, what do YOU think as an individual?

Individualism usually equals godlessness Major

 

[Major]

My parents taught me I didn't NEED church. When I struggled with pornography, they asked me, what do YOU think as an individual?

Individualism usually equals godlessness Major

I can not agree with this statement. That is an opinion.

Many Western countries tend to be individualist. You can find examples of individualistic societies in the United States, the United Kingdom, Western Europe, Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand. Individualism, as defined by behavioral scientists, means valuing autonomy, self-expression and the pursuit of personal goals rather than prioritizing the interests of the group — be it family, community or country.

The English word godless is used about a dozen times in the Old Testament in the modern versions. The word literally means “without god.” Taking all the biblical evidence into account, the term godless seems to describe someone or something that does not honor the One True God.

Most people will argue that "individualism" can lead to "altruism " which is actually a good thing, but not Godlessness.

 

[Major]

Ah yes, Ayn Rand individualism.

The thing that led me AWAY from God, the thing that led me AWAY from church, the thing that led me to think I didn't need any man or church or government or anything to teach me, the thing that led me to think I was better than God, that all I needed was ME MYSELF AND I.

It's too much of a cancer in the West. Every bit as evil as Marxism.

Now I do not know you, and I do not say this to argue, however, IMHO I would say that it just may have been TWO other things that lead you away from God.

1. Sin.
2. Satan.

But then, both of those are inclusive. One comes from the other.

 

[Major]

My wife tells me that a little country church had a prayer group that prayed for the coal mine where her father scratched out a living to cave-in because they thought he was a unbeliever. That would have harmed not only him but the whole of my wife's family.

I do know that my father had my mother take us kids to church while he stayed home because the church did not approve of his occupation (he designed missiles for the military).

I really do not see how taking such stances promotes the Kingdom.

It certainly does not! That is a perfect picture of deception.

 

[kdm1984]

I can not agree with this statement. That is an opinion.

Many Western countries tend to be individualist. You can find examples of individualistic societies in the United States, the United Kingdom, Western Europe, Australia, South Africa, and New Zealand. Individualism, as defined by behavioral scientists, means valuing autonomy, self-expression and the pursuit of personal goals rather than prioritizing the interests of the group — be it family, community or country.

The English word godless is used about a dozen times in the Old Testament in the modern versions. The word literally means “without god.” Taking all the biblical evidence into account, the term godless seems to describe someone or something that does not honor the One True God.

Most people will argue that "individualism" can lead to "altruism " which is actually a good thing, but not Godlessness.

No Scripture here, only man made reasoning from "behavioral scientists."

My autonomy, self-expression, and pursuit of personal goals led me AWAY from God as a youth.

As an INDIVIDUAL, I thought I didn't NEED God, I had ME MYSELF AND I.

THE INDIVIDUAL.

Rand was the most ardent individualist of the 20th century.

She was an ATHEIST!

 

[Major]

No Scripture here, only man made reasoning from "behavioral scientists."

My autonomy, self-expression, and pursuit of personal goals led me AWAY from God as a youth.

As an INDIVIDUAL, I thought I didn't NEED God, I had ME MYSELF AND I.

THE INDIVIDUAL.

Rand was the most ardent individualist of the 20th century.

She was an ATHEIST!

Sis........I was responding to your post of........."Individualism usually equals godlessness".

I did not quote any Scripture at all because it was my opinion.

Now that you asked, may I say to you that individualism says the needs of each person outweigh the needs of the larger culture or group. As with any human philosophy, individualism can be used beneficially or as a pretext for abuse. As one might expect, the Bible denounces an extreme approach to individualism. Scripture suggests that each person is morally obligated to consider others as more important than oneself and that in fact is a key to serve in Christ! At the same time, Scripture powerfully speaks to the value of the individual. In some ways, individualism has biblical merit, usually in narrow, spiritually related circumstances.

However, that the biblical examples narrow the context for legitimate individualism to instances of spiritual righteousness. When a godless culture claims that obeying God is harmful to “the many,” a Christian is still obligated to choose what is right (Acts 5:29)

Of course, because the Bible commends a moral, ethical type of individualism, collectivism ought not be carried too far.

 

[kdm1984]

My personal NEEDS do NOT outweigh the needs of everyone else!

That is utterly godless! It leads to SECOND WAVE FEMINISM and other GODLESSNESS.

This is too much...this is my final post here, I need to remain under the influence of men at WELS who don't teach this SELF WORSHIP garbage.

 

[Musicmaster]

We have had this discussion before on a similar thread.

It is not about......will God judge the USA for what she has allowed. It is about, will God judge SIN!

Yes, sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were concentrated centers for sin, and yet Abraham stood in the gap for the righteous in those cities.

I mean, look at the magnitude of what Abraham said and asked:

"Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Do you see that? Judging all within the borders of a city, or a county, or even a nation, judging them ALL is if they were the same, that they were all wicked. We in the Church are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, and to judge us all lumped in with the wicked fails to differentiate the Church from the wicked. THAT is what I am talking about.

So, the question is...does someone need to stand in the gap for the Church? Are the righteous in the West as the wicked throughout? Abraham said that it's not right that the righteous are treated as the wicked. That's a moral judgment call that He made before the Lord Most High. In other words, Abraham was saying that it is not right that the righteous are as the wicked when it comes to judgement. We're not talking about rain of water here. We're talking about the rain of judgment.

I'm simply calling into question the claims of mere men that God is now going to do what Abraham stated is simply not right, and the Lord did not correct him on that. Not in the least.

That is what Genesis 25 is about! The fact is, when it rains, everyone gets wet!

Did God judge the world in Genesis 6?
Did God judge Sonom and Gomorrah?

Personally, I do not think that preaching the coming events in teh Revelation is doom and gloom as much as I believe it is the truth of what is found in the Word of God.

IF it is written int he Bible then the Lord must have had in mind that we talk about it, and yes, warn those of what is coming.

The many, many claims of gloom and doom for the West I am addressing are not a matter of what is written in Revelation. These outlets of the gloom and doom stuff of which I was speaking is about the current state of affairs. The judgement of God upon those two cities was targeted. It was surgical, because the Lord did not destroy the many other wicked nations and cities around Sodom and Gomorrah. The righteous were removed, and these purveyors of judgements falling on us all right now for wickedness that we did not perpetrate nor support. Many of us have been actively fighting these forces, with prayer being our greatest weapon of warfare.

Does that clarify my stance?

Thanks for your comments.

MM

 

[Major]

Yes, sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were concentrated centers for sin, and yet Abraham stood in the gap for the righteous in those cities.

I mean, look at the magnitude of what Abraham said and asked:

"Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Do you see that? Judging all within the borders of a city, or a county, or even a nation, judging them ALL is if they were the same, that they were all wicked. We in the Church are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, and to judge us all lumped in with the wicked fails to differentiate the Church from the wicked. THAT is what I am talking about.

So, the question is...does someone need to stand in the gap for the Church? Are the righteous in the West as the wicked throughout? Abraham said that it's not right that the righteous are treated as the wicked. That's a moral judgment call that He made before the Lord Most High. In other words, Abraham was saying that it is not right that the righteous are as the wicked when it comes to judgement. We're not talking about rain of water here. We're talking about the rain of judgment.

I'm simply calling into question the claims of mere men that God is now going to do what Abraham stated is simply not right, and the Lord did not correct him on that. Not in the least.



The many, many claims of gloom and doom for the West I am addressing are not a matter of what is written in Revelation. These outlets of the gloom and doom stuff of which I was speaking is about the current state of affairs. The judgement of God upon those two cities was targeted. It was surgical, because the Lord did not destroy the many other wicked nations and cities around Sodom and Gomorrah. The righteous were removed, and these purveyors of judgements falling on us all right now for wickedness that we did not perpetrate nor support. Many of us have been actively fighting these forces, with prayer being our greatest weapon of warfare.

Does that clarify my stance?

Thanks for your comments.

MM

Think of it this way..........God saved a "remnant" out of the flood. He also saved a "remnant" out of Sodom /Gomorrah.
IMHO, we can use those as a picture of what He is going to do for the church in the Rapture.

Now, does someone need to stand in the gap for the church in these days??? IMO......NO!.
It is the Church which stands in the gap and it is impowered by the Holy Spirit!
THAT is why HE must be removed. The Church is the one that is spreading the gospel to save as many as can be saved.

2 Thess. 2:6-7.........
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

All of mankind without distinction are under the curse of sin and judged as sinful and separated from God apart from the saving grace of God in Christ. (Romans 3:23). Who is righteous?????

Abraham, Noah, Lot were subjects of God's grace and the same thing will be applied to believers.

 

[Musicmaster]

Think of it this way..........God saved a "remnant" out of the flood. He also saved a "remnant" out of Sodom /Gomorrah.
IMHO, we can use those as a picture of what He is going to do for the church in the Rapture.

Now, does someone need to stand in the gap for the church in these days??? IMO......NO!.

NOW you're getting to the gist of it all. Thank you.

Abraham has already established that the Lord is not One to destroy the righteous with the wicked.

It is the Church which stands in the gap and it is impowered by the Holy Spirit!
THAT is why HE must be removed. The Church is the one that is spreading the gospel to save as many as can be saved.

2 Thess. 2:6-7.........
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

All of mankind without distinction are under the curse of sin and judged as sinful and separated from God apart from the saving grace of God in Christ. (Romans 3:23). Who is righteous?????

Abraham, Noah, Lot were subjects of God's grace and the same thing will be applied to believers.

Uh, oh. Them's fightin' words in some people's thinking....

MM

 

[Major]

NOW you're getting to the gist of it all. Thank you.

Abraham has already established that the Lord is not One to destroy the righteous with the wicked.



Uh, oh. Them's fightin' words in some people's thinking....

MM

But we are not arguing over the event we can not talk about. We are simply acknowledging the fact that it is in the Scriptures.

However...........we also must consider that during the Tribulation, those who accept Christ (Tribulation Saints) will in fact endure the judgment of God on the world right along side of the unbelievers. Their faith in Christ will validate souls their eternal life but they can not escape the judgment that is all around them.

Revelation 7:9.......
“There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands”.

Faithful to the end, most of these believers will die for their faith. But in their death, they overcome

Rev. 12:11...........
“They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death”.

And God will reward them as we see in Rev. 7:15-17.........
“He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes”.

You always seem to have insightful posts and May the Lord bless you MM!

 

[Musicmaster]

But we are not arguing over the event we can not talk about. We are simply acknowledging the fact that it is in the Scriptures.

However...........we also must consider that during the Tribulation, those who accept Christ (Tribulation Saints) will in fact endure the judgment of God on the world right along side of the unbelievers. Their faith in Christ will validate souls their eternal life but they can not escape the judgment that is all around them.

Major, you REALLY must stop making sense! (snicker, snort)

I've grappled with that in my thoughts for some months, and arrived at the preliminary conclusion that there's a reason the Tribulation saints, who are not a part of the Church, are separated from the Church even in Heaven, because of their having waited until they were IN the Tribulation period before seeking Christ for salvation. Where it's true that God's wrath will not be upon them specifically, they will suffer the brunt of the wrath from the effects that wrath has upon the earth and the environment both in nature and in the cultures where they live.

Revelation 7:9-10
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Notice that the Tribulation saints don't have crowns, but rather palm branches in their hands. The people of the Church, on the other hand, have crowns on their heads because of their faithfulness to the Lord BEFORE those who only turned to the Lord AFTER He reveals Himself after the point at which His wrath falls upon the earth. I realize you quoted some of this, but I wanted to focus upon what is NOT said in that text. The contrast is even more striking.

Revelation 7:9.......
“There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands”.

Faithful to the end, most of these believers will die for their faith. But in their death, they overcome

Rev. 12:11...........
“They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death”.

And God will reward them as we see in Rev. 7:15-17.........
“He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes”.

You always seem to have insightful posts and May the Lord bless you MM!

Major, you are da man! Love reading your posts as well, and gleaning many a thoughtful insight. It's good for you to keep me on my toes (although I don't wear a tutu...just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea...).

MM

 

[Major]

Major, you REALLY must stop making sense! (snicker, snort)

I've grappled with that in my thoughts for some months, and arrived at the preliminary conclusion that there's a reason the Tribulation saints, who are not a part of the Church, are separated from the Church even in Heaven, because of their having waited until they were IN the Tribulation period before seeking Christ for salvation. Where it's true that God's wrath will not be upon them specifically, they will suffer the brunt of the wrath from the effects that wrath has upon the earth and the environment both in nature and in the cultures where they live.

Revelation 7:9-10
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

Notice that the Tribulation saints don't have crowns, but rather palm branches in their hands. The people of the Church, on the other hand, have crowns on their heads because of their faithfulness to the Lord BEFORE those who only turned to the Lord AFTER He reveals Himself after the point at which His wrath falls upon the earth. I realize you quoted some of this, but I wanted to focus upon what is NOT said in that text. The contrast is even more striking.



Major, you are da man! Love reading your posts as well, and gleaning many a thoughtful insight. It's good for you to keep me on my toes (although I don't wear a tutu...just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea...).

MM

Thank you for your words and may I say that the check is in the mail!!!

To add to your post, just as Old Testament believers aren’t part of the Church, neither are Tribulation believers. And a careful reading of Rev. 9:7-19 shows that the destiny of these believers is much different from the Church.

They’re specifically described as serving God in His Temple, and yet they are never called priests. This is a role never ascribed to the Church. In fact there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem, home of the church. Also there’s no mention of the saints in Rev. 7 ever ruling and reigning with Christ as is the Church’s destiny.

Ephesians 2:14-17 clearly portrays the Church as an entirely new and unique race of human, different from any other, with a future designed to show just how far God can go in lavishing His grace upon us. In my opinion, we don’t hear anywhere near enough on this subject from the pulpit and I would say that very few believers have even contemplated its meaning.

Now.......WHY is there a separation???? This is MY personal opinion but I think that it comes down to the fact that
During the Church Age, today........God asks people to believe solely by faith and promises blessings beyond those of any other group to those who do. But once Daniel’s 70th week begins, God’s supernatural power will once again be on display for all to see. During that time belief in Him will be as much by evidence as by faith, like it was in the Old Testament. Believing in what you see is not as commendable to God as is believing what you don’t see, hence the different destiny of Tribulation believers from that of the Church.

 

[bobinfaith]

My personal NEEDS do NOT outweigh the needs of everyone else! That is utterly godless! It leads to SECOND WAVE FEMINISM and other GODLESSNESS. This is too much...this is my final post here, I need to remain under the influence of men at WELS who don't teach this SELF WORSHIP garbage.

Hello kdm1984;

The author of this thread and (have to include yours) stimulate conversation in our fellowship. Since we cannot discuss a face to face dialogue over a cup of coffee, the alternative here is an opportunity to fellowship, learn other's points of view, including interpretations of Scripture in a thread/post forum.

God will make a way.

But speaking for myself, I can easily take my ball and go home, bring out the talking points if the others strike a nerve with my position. Instead, keeping in mind of God first in my prayers before logging on, I may or may not know what is posted will cross my path.

I find that praying before logging on and seeking what God says first, always guides me to listen and respond or not respond as the Holy Spirit prompts me.

Why? People all over the world wide public is reading what we / I have to contribute in response to the author or my thread that may encourage and minister to them.

I don't always agree with the Musicmasters, Majors, Via's, Lanolins or bobinfaiths, but readers on the world wide public will also discern whether we're merely listening.

In my recent sermon on Habakkuk, Habakkuk made his 1st and 2nd prophecy and complaints to God over the sinful conditions of the world. How much different are we in our grievances to Him and each other? Is Habakkuk or ourselves experts? No. But here we are graced by His presence to discuss it in an open Christian forum.

God answers Habakkuk and justifies His judgment how He will deal with everyone overall.

Habakkuk prays and acknowledges the power of our Almighty God. God sees the generations, men and women's attitudes in the times then and these times, or His Churches whether east, west, but on all 4 corners of the earth, it doesn't matter.

The sinner, institutions and organizations, or disorganizations, do not get the last word!

I personally love "live" testimony and face to face with my brothers and sisters. But the internet which I believe God created is another platform to introduce Christ again even to the seasoned Christians. So I partake.

We all need His reminder.

I have my moments when I get sick up and fed of the squabbling from grown up adults in an open forum but this also goes for "live" gatherings. So starting with myself;

If all of us can put it on our hearts, let go of the wayward talking points and get back into the heart of worship, fellowship and the goal of learning more from one another.

Thank you, MM. I don't mean to hijack your thread but I needed to say this.

God bless you all and your families.