Grace Is Not 'unmerited Favor'

[MichaelH]

The gospel clearly says that grace is the power of God given to us and in fact put into our hearts, causing us to live according to His will and enabling us to serve Him. Grace is a spiritual resource or 'commodity' that we receive through faith. Grace teaches us, helps us, comforts us, and empowers us. That is why we cannot boast that we are doing anything of ourselves because it is the power of God within us that is doing the 'labor'.

TC

No, I am not missing the point.......... Grace is mentioned when we are working and doing the will of God. Grace to preach, grace to heal others, grace to give, grace and favor to accomplish the plan of God. That is what you said, and I said.
We can't earn this grace, but must be in the place to receive it. It's a gift.

There is no teaching that tells us it's OK to sin and still get grace, and hence why I don't understand why the .PDF would even cover that as it's not even mentioned in scriptures. If there are some churches that teach that, the so what? There are lots of strange teachings all over the place we could camp on.

I would have rather you do a .pdf that expounds on staying in the plan and will of God instead of harping on what others are doing. I think that would have been more helpful, and in that you could have mentioned something like.

"Some believe that Grace means we can keep sinning and it will all be OK, this is false teaching that will only get those that follow it into deep trouble"

Then go on with how to obey God and stay in his plan. Grace only comes to do the will of God. If you are not concerned about doing the will of God, then you will have very little grace and zero grace to do your own thing and expect it to be blessed.

We are getting somewhere though.

Blessings.

 

[Man-ofGod]

You are still missing the point however since you bring up the 'free gift' I will expound on what that free gift is...

The 'free gift' is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No it is not something we deserve, but what grace is and why we receive it are two different subjects... Grace is not unmerited favor. Grace is the free gift of the Holy Spirit.

let's compare some other scriptures to see how grace and the Holy Spirit 'parallel' each other...


Saved by:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


‘Believe through’

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Rom 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope,
through the power of the Holy Ghost


Our ‘teacher’:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly,
in this present world;

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which
the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


What we are ‘justified by’:

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The covenant we are ‘under’:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The 'adoption':
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


‘full of’:

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness


’In your hearts’:

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Our helper:

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered


As you can see grace and the Holy Spirit are synonymous with each other...There are lots more ways to show that grace is a result of having the Holy Spirit and it is by that divine grace that we have our salvation. Nowhere in scripture does it say that we receive 'unmerited favor as a gift. We receive the power of the Holy Spirit as the gift.

The gospel clearly says that grace is the power of God given to us and in fact put into our hearts, causing us to live according to His will and enabling us to serve Him. Grace is a spiritual resource or 'commodity' that we receive through faith. Grace teaches us, helps us, comforts us, and empowers us. That is why we cannot boast that we are doing anything of ourselves because it is the power of God within us that is doing the 'labor'.

TC

The Holy Spirit is a gift of God but it is not the gift of God that is central to the story of redemption. Scripture says, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16. This is further corroborated by Rom 6:23.

So yes the Holy Spirit is a gift that is essential for salvation. However, and I say this reverently, all that is meaningless with out Gods ultimate gift to humanity, his only Son. The thief on the cross is saved because he came to the Lord with all his heart and soul yet that thief was not called to live the sanctified life. Had the theif lived, I am sure he would have lived a life of obedience, but the point is he received the gift of God that is central to the Gospel of salvation, the unmerited mercy of God.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Unless I am mistaken, this is a subject of how one abstains the grace of God. Unless I misunderstood the PDF provided, it seems to have the right idea regarding saving grace. I think there is much confusion with this as no one deserves salvation, but everyone is given the chance to receive it. It's up to each of us if we truly want it or not.

If one DOES want it, it is important that him to have faith, repent, be baptized, and live accordingly to His Word. Grace is a gift, but one must be willing to accept it in order to receive it. One can't have grace if he rejects it.

This subject is also treading on the subjects of justification and sanctification -- one of which we've discussed in here pretty vigorously in past threads (I'm still recovering).

 

[The Town Crier]

No, I am not missing the point.......... Grace is mentioned when we are working and doing the will of God. Grace to preach, grace to heal others, grace to give, grace and favor to accomplish the plan of God. That is what you said, and I said.
We can't earn this grace, but must be in the place to receive it. It's a gift.

There is no teaching that tells us it's OK to sin and still get grace, and hence why I don't understand why the .PDF would even cover that as it's not even mentioned in scriptures. If there are some churches that teach that, the so what? There are lots of strange teachings all over the place we could camp on.

I would have rather you do a .pdf that expounds on staying in the plan and will of God instead of harping on what others are doing. I think that would have been more helpful, and in that you could have mentioned something like.

"Some believe that Grace means we can keep sinning and it will all be OK, this is false teaching that will only get those that follow it into deep trouble"

Then go on with how to obey God and stay in his plan. Grace only comes to do the will of God. If you are not concerned about doing the will of God, then you will have very little grace and zero grace to do your own thing and expect it to be blessed.

We are getting somewhere though.

Blessings.

Yes we are getting somewhere...The point of the PDF is this. The United States churches have fallen away from the truth (hence the title 'the falling away is here),and are living lives of unrighteousness because of this 'unmerited favor' doctrine and because of fables like a pre-tribulation rapture of the church and a temple/antichrist in Jerusalem.

Again, the point of the PDF is to show that grace is the power of the Holy Spirit and without it you have no salvation. When you believe in Jesus you exercise faith. Through faith you get grace. Jesus death on the cross does nothing for the person who does not humble themselves and obey the word of God, no matter what they claim to believe with their mouth. Even the demons believe and tremble but they are not saved.

If you are not truly born again, you have no salvation. Being born again does not come by confession with your mouth but through a supernatural work of God. Today that process of conversion is not taking place and the condition of the country is proof of it. No other nation claims to be led of God, has such free access to the word, and yet lives such idolatrous, covetous, carnal lifestyles... (that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit). Those who think they have salvation by 'unmerited favor' are in for a rude awakening on judgment day. That is the point of the PDF...

The United states is an apostate place, very few even understand the gospel of salvation now, and are living lives of disobedience because of the 'unmerited favor' doctrine. Disagree if you want, but scripture is clear-grace is the power of the Holy Spirit and without that supernatural influence from God, there is no salvation. The Holy Spirit will testify for us or against us on that day:

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that
no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Holy Spirit will testify whether or not that process took place...






Read the whole PDF and consider what the Bible says...In the last days, there will be a group of people who hold the truth unrighteously and are destroyed at the Lords return...This nation and its people are that group. The United States fits every criteria for being Babylon the harlot including abandoning Israel. Look around the signs are all there...

TC

 

[MichaelH]

The Holy Spirit is a gift of God but it is not the gift of God that is central to the story of redemption. Scripture says, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16. This is further corroborated by Rom 6:23.

So yes the Holy Spirit is a gift that is essential for salvation. However, and I say this reverently, all that is meaningless with out Gods ultimate gift to humanity, his only Son. The thief on the cross is saved because he came to the Lord with all his heart and soul yet that thief was not called to live the sanctified life. Had the theif lived, I am sure he would have lived a life of obedience, but the point is he received the gift of God that is central to the Gospel of salvation, the unmerited mercy of God.

Would you clear this up a bit MOG.

There is nothing in scripture that says you won't make it without the Holy Spirit. God so loved the World that He gave his son. The focus is Jesus.

Jesus said.......(Those that know him) I'll send the comforter who will lead and guid you into all truth, how much more shall the Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him.

So that condition was that God is your Father (Through the belief on the son) and you ask for the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit so that we have have "POWER" to be a witness. Being filled or having the Spirit of God means power in your life or otherwise you are born of spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

So it looked as if you were saying that but then said.

"The Holy Spirit is a Gift and essential for salvation"

Baptism in Water for the repentance of sin (Good conscience toward God) and accepting Jesus as Lord with heart and confessing with mouth would be essential for Salvation to believe on the Lord Jesus.

This Power on High to be a Witnesses where everyone spoke tongues and some spoke prophecy, or did great things in the OT as the Spirit came on them, I don't see as a requirement to be saved. That is something to be asked for or receive later to be a powerful witness. As Paul asked those guys, "Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit (Fire). They only had been baptized in water for repentance to dead works in the Lord Jesus. They never heard of this Holy Spirit. So Paul laid hands on them to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by which they spoke tongues and had prophecy.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(Act 19:2-3)

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:4)

Apostolic belief tells people they must speak in tongues to be saved, this is error. It's all about believing on the Lord Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, our King, Big Brother, the Head of the Church.

 

[The Town Crier]

Would you clear this up a bit MOG.

There is nothing in scripture that says you won't make it without the Holy Spirit. God so loved the World that He gave his son. The focus is Jesus.

Jesus said.......(Those that know him) I'll send the comforter who will lead and guid you into all truth, how much more shall the Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him.

So that condition was that God is your Father (Through the belief on the son) and you ask for the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit so that we have have "POWER" to be a witness. Being filled or having the Spirit of God means power in your life or otherwise you are born of spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

So it looked as if you were saying that but then said.


Baptism in Water for the repentance of sin (Good conscience toward God) and accepting Jesus as Lord with heart and confessing with mouth would be essential for Salvation to believe on the Lord Jesus.

This Power on High to be a Witnesses where everyone spoke tongues and some spoke prophecy, or did great things in the OT as the Spirit came on them, I don't see as a requirement to be saved. That is something to be asked for or receive later to be a powerful witness. As Paul asked those guys, "Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit (Fire). They only had been baptized in water for repentance to dead works in the Lord Jesus. They never heard of this Holy Spirit. So Paul laid hands on them to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by which they spoke tongues and had prophecy.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(Act 19:2-3)

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:4)

Apostolic belief tells people they must speak in tongues to be saved, this is error. It's all about believing on the Lord Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, our King, Big Brother, the Head of the Church.

Michael H- you said " There is nothing in scripture that says you won't make it without the Holy Spirit. God so loved the World that He gave his son. The focus is Jesus."

That is a lie...Jesus said that if you are not born again, you will not enter the kingdom...Jesus was lifted up on the cross so that we could be healed. He bore the sins of the entire world, but not all will come to Him for salvation. Having our sins wiped clean does not give us salvation...ONLY Christ in your heart gives you salvation.

TC

 

[MichaelH]

Yes we are getting somewhere...The point of the PDF is this. The United States churches have fallen away from the truth (hence the title 'the falling away is here),and are living lives of unrighteousness because of this 'unmerited favor' doctrine and because of fables like a pre-tribulation rapture of the church and a temple/antichrist in Jerusalem.

Again, the point of the PDF is to show that grace is the power of the Holy Spirit and without it you have no salvation. When you believe in Jesus you exercise faith. Through faith you get grace. Jesus death on the cross does nothing for the person who does not humble themselves and obey the word of God, no matter what they claim to believe with their mouth. Even the demons believe and tremble but they are not saved.

If you are not truly born again, you have no salvation. Being born again does not come by confession with your mouth but through a supernatural work of God. Today that process of conversion is not taking place and the condition of the country is proof of it. No other nation claims to be led of God, has such free access to the word, and yet lives such idolatrous, covetous, carnal lifestyles... (that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit). Those who think they have salvation by 'unmerited favor' are in for a rude awakening on judgment day. That is the point of the PDF...

The United states is an apostate place, very few even understand the gospel of salvation now, and are living lives of disobedience because of the 'unmerited favor' doctrine. Disagree if you want, but scripture is clear-grace is the power of the Holy Spirit and without that supernatural influence from God, there is no salvation. The Holy Spirit will testify for us or against us on that day:


Read the whole PDF and consider what the Bible says...In the last days, there will be a group of people who hold the truth unrighteously and are destroyed at the Lords return...This nation and its people are that group. The United States fits every criteria for being Babylon the harlot including abandoning Israel. Look around the signs are all there...

TC

It's not that I don't agree, that is not the issue. Jesus said.........................

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Anyone who has the heart to do the will of God, not their own things, but God's things will have sound doctrine. That means we work where we are led, we go to the church we are told to go to, and every day is a day where we wake up and say not my will today, but what you put on my heart to do.

Many just go to Church, sit in a pew and call themselves Christians. They live their own life outside of church. That is not doing the will of God, or living as Jesus is Lord.

However, I don't understand why be concerned about the United States or what Government has to do with anything. The Church has never been mixed in with Government, what is Ceasers is Ceasers, and what is God's is Gods. We are told to pray for those in authority that things may go well with us, we can't dictate or even care what a Goverment is doing. We are told to pray.

Also, it's impossible to hold any truth that does not have right standing with God. (Righteousness means right standing with) You gave a oxymoron. If you read Rev 1-3 you see Jesus told certain Churches in Asia Minor to get their act together or He removes their lamp. (candlestick)

(To Sardis)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
(Rev 3:5)

So I assume it's possible to get your name wiped out of the book and the candlestick removed which means you would not even be considered part of the Church. There is no church that is falling away or going bad. Once you refuse to change, your no longer considered a church of the Lord Jesus but just a group teaching your own thing.

So that would be another Oxymoron to call something a church that is not considered a church. There are churches that need to shape up or they are out, and there are some that people call church that are not church, or the church of the Lord Jesus.

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Any real church will be presented without spot or blemish. Anything that is not a real church is not a real church and not considered part of those that belong to the Lord Jesus.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Would you clear this up a bit MOG.

There is nothing in scripture that says you won't make it without the Holy Spirit. God so loved the World that He gave his son. The focus is Jesus.

Jesus said.......(Those that know him) I'll send the comforter who will lead and guid you into all truth, how much more shall the Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him.

So that condition was that God is your Father (Through the belief on the son) and you ask for the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said I will send the Holy Spirit so that we have have "POWER" to be a witness. Being filled or having the Spirit of God means power in your life or otherwise you are born of spirit and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

So it looked as if you were saying that but then said.


Baptism in Water for the repentance of sin (Good conscience toward God) and accepting Jesus as Lord with heart and confessing with mouth would be essential for Salvation to believe on the Lord Jesus.

This Power on High to be a Witnesses where everyone spoke tongues and some spoke prophecy, or did great things in the OT as the Spirit came on them, I don't see as a requirement to be saved. That is something to be asked for or receive later to be a powerful witness. As Paul asked those guys, "Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit (Fire). They only had been baptized in water for repentance to dead works in the Lord Jesus. They never heard of this Holy Spirit. So Paul laid hands on them to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by which they spoke tongues and had prophecy.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(Act 19:2-3)

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(Act 19:4)

Apostolic belief tells people they must speak in tongues to be saved, this is error. It's all about believing on the Lord Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, our King, Big Brother, the Head of the Church.

Good question and thank you for being astute. These are one of those studies that are implicit in scripture. In order to walk with the Lord, God must dwell within you. This is done though the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:1, Gal 5:25). The Holy Spirit is present through every phase of the Christian experience. It brings about conviction and reproves of sin (John 16:8) driving both the believer and unbeliever who holds a contrite spirit to the cross. It keeps us on the path (John 16:3). It prevents us from sinning when we yield to it (1 John 3:9). By it, we eventually produces fruit (Gal 5:22-23). This is why we can do nothing with out Jesus (John 15:7). Those who resist the spirit of truth (John 14:7) cannot be saved (Mark 3:29).

God bless,
MoG

 

[MichaelH]

Good question and thank you for being astute. These are one of those studies that are implicit in scripture. In order to walk with the Lord, God must dwell within you. This is done though the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:1, Gal 5:25). The Holy Spirit is present through every phase of the Christian experience. It brings about conviction and reproves of sin (John 16:8) driving both the believer and unbeliever who holds a contrite spirit to the cross. It keeps us on the path (John 16:3). It prevents us from sinning when we yield to it (1 John 3:9). By it, we eventually produces fruit (Gal 5:22-23). This is why we can do nothing with out Jesus (John 14:7). Those who resist the spirit of truth (John 15:7) cannot be saved (Mark 3:29).

God bless,
MoG

OK, that makes things more clear, I know your (Scripture) only and don't just take one but need comparisons to be valid.

I speak in tongues and have operated in some of the gifts as the Spirit wills or what is needed, yet the vastness of the Holy Spirit makes my understanding very small. At least I know He is real, and much needed. I have that part down.

This scripture that came to me before I posted, which changed my post actually:

Joh_16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

You gave the purpose of the Holy Spirit that every believer needs, but it appears the Holy Spirit is also working in those that don't believe also. So the Holy Spirit working World wide without our input? Or the Greater one in us works where we go for the World?

Ummm, I have to do more research but it appears because of the "Salt and light" that it would be where we go. Why I like forums, makes things come up you never considered before by our great Teacher the Holy Spirit.

Blessings.

 

[The Town Crier]

It's not that I don't agree, that is not the issue. Jesus said.........................

Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Anyone who has the heart to do the will of God, not their own things, but God's things will have sound doctrine. That means we work where we are led, we go to the church we are told to go to, and every day is a day where we wake up and say not my will today, but what you put on my heart to do.

Many just go to Church, sit in a pew and call themselves Christians. They live their own life outside of church. That is not doing the will of God, or living as Jesus is Lord.

However, I don't understand why be concerned about the United States or what Government has to do with anything. The Church has never been mixed in with Government, what is Ceasers is Ceasers, and what is God's is Gods. We are told to pray for those in authority that things may go well with us, we can't dictate or even care what a Goverment is doing. We are told to pray.

Also, it's impossible to hold any truth that does not have right standing with God. (Righteousness means right standing with) You gave a oxymoron. If you read Rev 1-3 you see Jesus told certain Churches in Asia Minor to get their act together or He removes their lamp. (candlestick)

(To Sardis)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
(Rev 3:5)

So I assume it's possible to get your name wiped out of the book and the candlestick removed which means you would not even be considered part of the Church. There is no church that is falling away or going bad. Once you refuse to change, your no longer considered a church of the Lord Jesus but just a group teaching your own thing.

So that would be another Oxymoron to call something a church that is not considered a church. There are churches that need to shape up or they are out, and there are some that people call church that are not church, or the church of the Lord Jesus.

Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Any real church will be presented without spot or blemish. Anything that is not a real church is not a real church and not considered part of those that belong to the Lord Jesus.

I try to put parenthesis around the word 'church'...sometimes forget to though(oops). The true church is the body of Christ- wherever they may be in the world. The 'churches' I am referring to are the congregations or ekklesia. Not everyone that gathers in them is saved though. Many are false prophets, false brethren, 'wicked'( having the truth but living unrighteous anyway). Today most 'congregations' are filled with false believers who have fallen for 'unmerited favor' and rapture theories.

So the point is this- the falling away is a group of people who at one time have sound doctrine(hence why they fall away from it) and begin to live unrighteous. No other country fits all the parameters but the United States. Again, if you would just read the WHOLE pdf lol, you would see where I am coming from. Part of the point is that the american 'churches' think they are the bride of Christ...and they are far from it. The salt that was here is gone and there is no real influence upon a wicked and perverse nation. The true Christians are exactly what you said- those that wake up each day seeking to do the will of the Father(even if it kills them) rather than turning Jesus into a genie in a bottle and praying for worldly/carnal blessings.

Why am I concerned...I am moved by the Spirit to sound the alarm! There are over 300 million people here of which more than 70 percent claim to be 'Christian' that makes a couple hundred million people that are going to perish because they are living unrighteous lives while having the truth. The average American lifestyle is ungodly face it... I don't care how many times a week they go to church or Bible study. Their lives are full of covetousness, backbiting, idolatry, corrupt communication, adultery, you name it. There is a reason non believers call Christians hypocrites today. I a sounding the warning because I am called to. I don't care what the Government does, I care what a person who claims to be 'Christian' does. America is Babylon and most who call themselves Christians are going to perish at the return of the Lord. Pride goeth before destruction..


Jer 50:31 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.


Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!
Jer 50:24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD.
Jer 50:25 The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.
Jer 50:26 Come against her from the utmost border, open her storehouses: cast her up as heaps, and destroy her utterly: let nothing of her be left.
Jer 50:27 Slay all her bullocks; let them go down to the slaughter: woe unto them! for their day is come, the time of their visitation.

There is not going to be a 'rapture' before this happens. Open your eyes...America is going to receive judgment from God(and so are most who 'confess' Christ yet live like Babylonians ) If you are not concerned about the spiritual holocaust that is taking place in America, and the continual blasphemy of the Lords name by pretend Christians, you don't have the Love of God in you, nor do you love His word...Consider these things.

TC

 

[MichaelH]

I try to put parenthesis around the word 'church'...sometimes forget to though(oops). The true church is the body of Christ- wherever they may be in the world. The 'churches' I am referring to are the congregations or ekklesia. Not everyone that gathers in them is saved though. Many are false prophets, false brethren, 'wicked'( having the truth but living unrighteous anyway). Today most 'congregations' are filled with false believers who have fallen for 'unmerited favor' and rapture theories.

TC

True Church!! That is a better Term. Nothing is considered to be the Lords without Jesus actually being Lord and doing what He says do.

I am glad you have a concern for these folks, but scripture tells us they heap among themselves teachers to preach what they want to hear (Itchy Ears) . There is no way to stop people or warn them not to get involved in dead works.

If you and I went into all these bad places people call churches and put a real Pastor there that only speaks truth, then everyone would leave who went there because it's not what they want to hear. Fixing all the bad places creates more bad places so people can hear what they want to hear.

Those that will do the will of God, get led into good places that are real churches. There is no such thing as someone wanting to do the Will of God and end up in a bad place called a church. God is faithful and will get that person in a place where they can grow.

Also, it don't matter pre-trib, post-trib or whatever, if you don't serve the Lord and do the will of God, things don't end up well for you no matter what your end time position. I am not sure why you believe pre-trib means anything or Post trib.

Blessings.

 

[The Town Crier]

True Church!! That is a better Term. Nothing is considered to be the Lords without Jesus actually being Lord and doing what He says do.

I am glad you have a concern for these folks, but scripture tells us they heap among themselves teachers to preach what they want to hear (Itchy Ears) . There is no way to stop people or warn them not to get involved in dead works.

If you and I went into all these bad places people call churches and put a real Pastor there that only speaks truth, then everyone would leave who went there because it's not what they want to hear. Fixing all the bad places creates more bad places so people can hear what they want to hear.

Those that will do the will of God, get led into good places that are real churches. There is no such thing as someone wanting to do the Will of God and end up in a bad place called a church. God is faithful and will get that person in a place where they can grow.

Also, it don't matter pre-trib, post-trib or whatever, if you don't serve the Lord and do the will of God, things don't end up well for you no matter what your end time position. I am not sure why you believe pre-trib means anything or Post trib.

Blessings.

The rapture theory is mixed in with a bunch of other false teachings... Nonetheless- I would make this point to you. There are sheep in the churches being devoured by goats. They are seeking to be fed and cannot find any food. You are right- God is faithful and will get them where they need to go... using us. We are his workers in the field...We need to go seek them out and minister to them. Show them the truth and equip them to do the same for others..Paul spent a great majority of his time going into the synagogues for that very reason- to warn people and get them into sound doctrine. That may not be what you have been called to do or what particular gift of grace you have received but that is my calling and I intend to fulfill it.

Take care...
TC

 

[MichaelH]

The rapture theory is mixed in with a bunch of other false teachings... Nonetheless-
Take care...
TC

Well................ I speak and pray in tongues. There are churches that teach tongues is past away. The Baptist Church down the street (Walking distance) does not teach tongues, but the Pastor teachings living right for God and not to entertain sin or get mixed with the World. He loves his people and sin is sin in his church, not some "Issue" or "Small Problem I have" Sin will eventually kill you and destroy your life.
I know of a case where someone just went against their heart knowing right and did wrong. He lost his life that night when He was called to be a pastor, He just had to make one more dope deal to catch his bills up and then He said he was done for good.
There was no grace to save him, he walked into the devils territory by free will and lost his life and all that God called him to do.

The Baptist Pastor down the street is a great guy, loves God and wants his people to do right. Just because He takes a different stance with me on tongues does not mean the rest of what he teaches is in error.

Same with Pre-trib churches. You can't say they are bad just because you don't buy into the pre-trib doctrine.

It's not a mature position to take.

I can't sniff out bad churches because they don't believe in tongues, anymore than you can sniff them out because of their pre-trib doctrine.

Blessings.

 

[The Town Crier]

Well................ I speak and pray in tongues. There are churches that teach tongues is past away. The Baptist Church down the street (Walking distance) does not teach tongues, but the Pastor teachings living right for God and not to entertain sin or get mixed with the World. He loves his people and sin is sin in his church, not some "Issue" or "Small Problem I have" Sin will eventually kill you and destroy your life.
I know of a case where someone just went against their heart knowing right and did wrong. He lost his life that night when He was called to be a pastor, He just had to make one more dope deal to catch his bills up and then He said he was done for good.
There was no grace to save him, he walked into the devils territory by free will and lost his life and all that God called him to do.

The Baptist Pastor down the street is a great guy, loves God and wants his people to do right. Just because He takes a different stance with me on tongues does not mean the rest of what he teaches is in error.

Same with Pre-trib churches. You can't say they are bad just because you don't buy into the pre-trib doctrine.

It's not a mature position to take.

I can't sniff out bad churches because they don't believe in tongues, anymore than you can sniff them out because of their pre-trib doctrine.

Blessings.

The Holy Spirit does not teach false doctrine...I most certainly can 'sniff out' a bad church based on what it teaches. If a Pastor teaches that which is contrary to sound doctrine, he is a false prophet or wolf in sheep's clothing.

If you don't have the discernment to understand the danger behind these false teachings and recognize the times we are in, you are just as deceived as they are...And you will be just as confused as they are- the day the sky goes dark and angels come down...

TC

 

[Kurt75]

TC, I'm going to make some statements that I believe summarize what you've been saying in the last few posts. I don't want to misrepresent, so if you could just provide a True or False label to each one, that would be helpful:

(1) True or False: A person who has been truly born again has the Holy Spirit and as a result will have perfect theology because the person will be under the instruction of the Holy Spirit.

(2) True or False: The slightest error in a person's theology, let's say a belief in pre-trib rapture, is evidence that person does not have the Holy Spirit and is therefor not born again, i.e. reprobate.

Can you clear this up for me? And if any of these statements are false, please comment to what degree they are false in your own analysis without just listing a bunch of bible verses.

 

[MichaelH]

The Holy Spirit does not teach false doctrine...I most certainly can 'sniff out' a bad church based on what it teaches. If a Pastor teaches that which is contrary to sound doctrine, he is a false prophet or wolf in sheep's clothing.

If you don't have the discernment to understand the danger behind these false teachings and recognize the times we are in, you are just as deceived as they are...And you will be just as confused as they are- the day the sky goes dark and angels come down...

TC

What times are these TC? We know them by their fruit. Nobody is going to be confused at the release of the 6th seal. Rev 6 says people will attempt to hide from the face of the lamb. We have lots of markers to count from that time to the time the 6th seal comes. Jesus said I came as a thief, a Greek word for Brigand or band of robbers. It does not necessarily mean unexpected as Satan sends messengers to gather help right before the battle, so even Satan is not clueless as to what is about to go down.

In the last days there shall be Perilous times............................

That is scripture, so what else would you expect to take place as each day passes? It is not suppose to get better, and won't get better. Though Rev 1-3 was written to long gone churches, I believe it's included to be relevant today that there will be a separation of what is bad (Church) and (True Church) Those that want Bad church will get bad, those that want true church will get good.

Pre-trib doctrine is no indication of false Doctrine because switching from pre-trib to Post-trib is just a few key scriptures and how they are viewed.

TC, I'm going to make some statements that I believe summarize what you've been saying in the last few posts. I don't want to misrepresent, so if you could just provide a True or False label to each one, that would be helpful:

(1) True or False: A person who has been truly born again has the Holy Spirit and as a result will have perfect theology because the person will be under the instruction of the Holy Spirit.

(2) True or False: The slightest error in a person's theology, let's say a belief in pre-trib rapture, is evidence that person does not have the Holy Spirit and is therefor not born again, i.e. reprobate.

Can you clear this up for me? And if any of these statements are false, please comment to what degree they are false in your own analysis without just listing a bunch of bible verses.

Jesus said anyone that will do the will of God, put God first will know sound doctrine. It's not based on having access to the Holy Spirit. So, a belief in say "pre-trib" would be zero indication of a person being reprobate or not.

One would look for the fruit of the spirit (Born again Human spirit through the Holy Spirit?) but this fruit of Love, Joy, faithfulness did not mention a pre or post trib doctrine.

Blessings.

 

[The Town Crier]

What times are these TC? We know them by their fruit. Nobody is going to be confused at the release of the 6th seal. Rev 6 says people will attempt to hide from the face of the lamb. We have lots of markers to count from that time to the time the 6th seal comes. Jesus said I came as a thief, a Greek word for Brigand or band of robbers. It does not necessarily mean unexpected as Satan sends messengers to gather help right before the battle, so even Satan is not clueless as to what is about to go down.

In the last days there shall be Perilous times............................

That is scripture, so what else would you expect to take place as each day passes? It is not suppose to get better, and won't get better. Though Rev 1-3 was written to long gone churches, I believe it's included to be relevant today that there will be a separation of what is bad (Church) and (True Church) Those that want Bad church will get bad, those that want true church will get good.

Pre-trib doctrine is no indication of false Doctrine because switching from pre-trib to Post-trib is just a few key scriptures and how they are viewed.



Jesus said anyone that will do the will of God, put God first will know sound doctrine. It's not based on having access to the Holy Spirit. So, a belief in say "pre-trib" would be zero indication of a person being reprobate or not.

One would look for the fruit of the spirit (Born again Human spirit through the Holy Spirit?) but this fruit of Love, Joy, faithfulness did not mention a pre or post trib doctrine.

Blessings.

Michael H.

Have you not paid any attention to what the title to my PDF is 'THE FALLING AWAY IS HERE'...

That is the 'times' I am referring to. The Bible is clear that there will be a falling away before the return of the Lord and that group will be destroyed at His coming. In other words, if Jesus returns on the clouds tomorrow with His angels, the first thing that he is going to do is send His angels forth to gather the 'wicked' and destroy them. The wicked are those from the falling away. If you are believing in a rapture theory, and angels come down to gather 'the wicked' and take them away...what will you think when you are 'left behind'? Will you understand the times or think that it is some sort of alien invasion?


Everyone envisions the Lord coming on the clouds in a bright light to rapture people...but the sky must be darkened first, and we do not know how long it takes between when the sky goes dark and He returns...an hour? 2 weeks? It says He goes to Jerusalem to rule, but false teachers are saying there will be an antichrist in Jerusalem pretending to be God..There is a huge deception going on my friend and those without their lights shining brightly are going to be sorry.

If you choose not to care about the timing of events, then just don't care... be ignorant- whatever you want to do. Jesus said for us to be ready though and to know the signs of the times. And it isn't about 'bad church' and good church'... It is about whether or not you have been born again and are truly one of God's or you are foolish and will call Him Lord Lord- 'thinking you know Him'...and He tells you to depart from Him. Consider these things. Are you of the world or crucified to it?

TC

 

[The Town Crier]

TC, I'm going to make some statements that I believe summarize what you've been saying in the last few posts. I don't want to misrepresent, so if you could just provide a True or False label to each one, that would be helpful:

(1) True or False: A person who has been truly born again has the Holy Spirit and as a result will have perfect theology because the person will be under the instruction of the Holy Spirit.

(2) True or False: The slightest error in a person's theology, let's say a belief in pre-trib rapture, is evidence that person does not have the Holy Spirit and is therefor not born again, i.e. reprobate.

Can you clear this up for me? And if any of these statements are false, please comment to what degree they are false in your own analysis without just listing a bunch of bible verses.

First of all, I do not use worldly terms like 'theology'. Being born again has less to do with head knowledge of the Bible than it does to have the word of God written into your heart.

Second, Believing false doctrine means that the spirit that the person is listening to is not of God. We are to test the spirits to see if they are of God. One way we can is by the testimony that comes out of their mouth. If they speak falsely it is because the truth is not in them..take that for what it is worth.

TC

 

[Kurt75]

Oh for crying out loud. Can you just answer a simple True/False question? I guess that means the answer to both questions is false then? And to what degree? I'm still no closer to understanding what it is you're trying to say.

And the word "theology" is no more or less worldly than any other word we use in the english language.

Theology means "knowledge of God." Why do you have an issue with this?

 

[The Town Crier]

. Some times an answer is not simply a 'true or false' as in the case of your questions...

Theology is 'the study of God'- not 'the knowledge of God'...There is a big difference. One is the teachings of men, the other is the teaching of the Holy Spirit. So in light of that distinction- a person can study the teachings of men( divinity colleges, online courses, commentaries, books etc and never come come to the knowledge of the truth( we are warned about that in scripture) Whereas the Holy Spirit will NEVER teach someone wrong. You can open scripture and you will learn correctly if you are obeying what you are taught instead of just giving it 'lipservice'. Those who look for the 'fine lines' or 'how close they can get to the cliff' without falling over it are not sincere in pursuing the Lords will and purpose. Again take those statements for what they are worth to you.

TC.